I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

Clear said:MY SPECIFIC QUESTION WAS (AND STILL IS): WHY is the Jehovahs Witness interpretations and theology to take priority over the interpretation and theology of ancient Judeo-Christian theology?”

Walter claimed: “I myself have my own Theology I explain my fundamental beliefs with Jesus words and the apostles words in agreement Alone. That's it!”

Ooookay.

Do you realize that making yet another, strange and incorrect, claim may be self- reassuring, but, yet again, this new claim still does not answer the question you were asked?

This pattern of avoiding questions is as troubling as the imagination that you, somehow create your theology without engaging in a (dubious) degree of understanding and interpreting what you have read.

Walter, You have already admitted you cannot remember even a single paragraph after you read it. How does this inability to retain even minimal context affect your ability to create accurate context to your readings?

You quote incorrect English versions of scriptures you seem to think you understand. How does this inability to know what the actual Greek source text even says, affect your degree of understanding and the credibility you give yourself?

You have repeatedly used a concordance instead of a lectionary in defining meanings of ancient words. What does such a basic mistake indicate about your understanding of translation (and thus, what text is accurate and what is inaccurate)?

You quote incorrect English versions of scriptures you seem to think you understand.

For example, Is Acts 20:28 in the Jehovahs Witness New World Translation created by Franz represent the actual and most correct biblical source text? 44 of 46 other main bibles render the question differently? Is the NWT bible correct or are the other 44 incorrect?

If you don’t know what the correct text is, then how can you claim to be reading the correct text or making the correct interpretations that underlie your personal theology?

Can you clarify ANY of this?

Walter, I don't doubt your sincerity and earnestness and I think your, apparently, loving nature is a wonderful example for the rest of us. You seem to be kind and you are an example to me in this regard. However, being "nice" doesn't itself, provide any motivation to think your theology is superior to another Christians conflicting theology and their good data that undermines your theology. I also feel that IF you are correct that you cannot read a paragraph and remember it after just reading it, this sort of disability means that I honor you for your wonderful efforts to keep trying to read and make some sense of what you read and abandon errors you find and adopt new and superior data as you are exposed to it. Good luck Walter.
 
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1. Do we let the words in the scriptures speak for themselves?
2. Or do we explain in so many words that scriptures mean something else?
Which scriptures are true? Shouldn't we consider all these scriptures to be true, or does one scripture cancel out the other scripture?

What if we used all these scriptures in our understanding?

Once Jesus was made perfect he became the source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him, and it is God's grace, undeserved kindness that we are saved, endure to the end, get baptized, we should believe in Jesus and observe all his commands, those who do not know God and Obey the good news of our Lord Jesus will be punished.
 
What happened to the other Jehovah Witnesses who were on this thread before?

I just feel bad for Walter because he joined in on this debate and now he has been left out in the cold.
 
I am just trying to collect as many scriptures as we can find that would have to do with the subject of Salvation or Everlasting life. 💖 :) 🕺
 
What's more important, something You or I explain, or something Jesus and the Apostles explain?

- If you could please state your belief.
- Then list the scriptures that explain it.

Focusing on the "contexts in scripture", not our Viewpoint or Explanation.
 
I agree with most people's line of reasoning 💖 I think this is probably one of the hardest subject to prove, because:

#1. When one person believes that the wicked are destroyed and they don't get life in the first place, they vanish and disappear, this agrees with the Bible throughout but disagrees with being tormented day and night forever, which is also in the Bible.

#2. Another person agrees and believes that the wicked are tormented day and night forever, must also disagree with other Bible texts.

IMO Both perspectives agree with scripture and also disagree with scripture. 💖

* I can post the scriptures that show that the wicked are: to be cut off, like a dream he flies away, no more to be found, banished like a vision of the night, to disappear like smoke nowhere to be found, to perish, will not get life, be destroyed, the soul and the body are both destroyed in hell, indeed, the lamp of the wicked is extinguished, but the Bible still says: they will be tormented day and night forever.
 
No matter what we want to call it, shouldn't we include all these scriptures in our understanding?

Ephesians 2:8-10
Contemporary English Version
You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. 9 It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can brag about. 10 God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. This is why he sent Christ to make us what we are.

James 1:22
New International Version
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

Luke 8:21
New International Version
He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”

Matthew 7:17
Berean Standard Bible
Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Hebrews 5:9
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Matthew 28:20
New King James Version
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Matthew 7:21
New King James Version
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

1 John 3:7
NASB 1995
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

Matthew 7:24
New International Version
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Luke 6:46
New International Version
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
 
If we consider the words in each scripture, as equally valuable to our understanding, could it be possible that some of the words are figurative? And other words are not figurative?

Eternal Torment - Revelation 14:11, 20:10; Matthew 25:46
Will not see life - John 3:36, Matthew 7:14
Destroy both soul and body in hell - Matthew 10:28
Will disappear nowhere to be found - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
Eternal Destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Detestable things to God. nor did it enter my mind.- Deut 12:31; Jeremiah 7:31; 2 Kings 17:17
 
IBrian asked regarding ancient Judeo-Christian theology: “What is this? “



Hi iBrian,

Though the term used historically, typically refers to the basic theological principles shared by both ancient Jewish (including pre-Rabbinic) and Christian religions, I am specifically referring to theology and interpretations described by ancient Jahwist, ancient Jewish, ancient Christian, and ancient Syncretic literature where the early Judeo-Christians describe their own beliefs and their own textual interpretations in their own words versus later theologies created by the many later Christian Schisms and various Christian movements.

For example: In the specific discussion between Walter, Alter2Ego, and I:

Much of the ancient Judeo-Christian literature describes the ancient Judeo-Christian belief that a spirit is placed in each person that exists after the body dies while Jehovahs Witness Theology abandons this principle and created a theology where no such spirit exists.

I am trying to understand why the various Christian schisms and later movements feel their theologies and interpretations of sacred texts are superior to the theology and interpretation and texts of ancient Judeo-Christianity. What advantage does any modern Christian theology have over ancient Judeo-Christianity? I do not see any advantage to the creation of newer Religious theories since the ancient Judeo-Christian literature describes shared theology that seems (to me) to be more rational, more logical and more intuitive than theology created by the later Christian movements.
 
I respect what others believe to be true :), I think it makes sense that someone designed all these complex systems and keeps them running everyday, is it possible that any human could design and build any of these systems, with their limited intelligence? 💖


What would happen to all "Plant and Animal life" if the Earth moved out of its habitable distance from the Sun for just one week? Or the ecosystem, the ozone layer, the magnetic field around the Earth, the water cycle, the Earth's atmosphere or the nitrogen cycle did not function for one week?

AI Overview

Moving Earth out of the habitable zone, or disabling critical Earth systems even for just a week, would cause catastrophic, widespread death for nearly all plant and animal life.
 
I am trying to understand why the various Christian schisms and later movements feel their theologies and interpretations of sacred texts are superior to the theology and interpretation and texts of ancient Judeo-Christianity.
I think the main problem is trying to use the term "ancient Judeo-Christianity" as if there was always some form of general shared agreement on matters of faith. If you're talking about the early church, writings from the first few centuries show there's already a lot of difference and divergence even from the start. I don't think that process has ever stopped.
 
Hi @iBrian



1) REGARDING THE DEFINITION AND USAGE OF THE TERM "JUDEO-CHRISTIAN"

iBrian quoted Clears statement that: I am trying to understand why the various Christian schisms and later movements feel their theologies and interpretations of sacred texts are superior to the theology and interpretation and texts of ancient Judeo-Christianity.”

iBrian then said: “I think the main problem is trying to use the term "ancient Judeo-Christianity" as if there was always some form of general shared agreement on matters of faith.”

I am not sure what problem you think exists since there are now and have, historically been general shared basic agreements on matters of faith in early Jahwistic, Jewish, and Christian faith. All believed in a God. The all agreed in specific doctrines such as the ten commandments. They all shared similar literature such as the Old Testament.

For examples, the New Testament is typically viewed as "Christian Literature" (though some doctrinal sharing is present) and the Talmud is, typically, viewed as "Jewish literature". However, since BOTH the Jews AND the Christians use the Old Testament as part of their literature, then the Old Testament is "Judeo-Christian" literature.

The Term "Judeo-Christian" simply refers to basic principles/literature/traditions that are areas of agreement and the term does not (typically) apply to areas of theological disagreement.



iBrian said: “If you're talking about the early church, writings from the first few centuries show there's already a lot of difference and divergence even from the start. I don't think that process has ever stopped.”

I agree that early on, a lot of theological difference and divergence occurred and increased. However, I am not sure why you are saying the fact that there were differences is a “main problem” for areas of theological agreement.

For example, we use the single term “Christian” to apply to multiple religions that have areas of agreement, yet have areas of disagreement and still, we use the term "Christian literature" for their literature. Thus, the New Testament can be described as "Christian literature" despite theological differences between the Christian religions.

If this explains sufficiently to clear up your concerns, good. If not, can you clarify why you think the concept of Judeo-Christian agreement creates a logical problem with the fact that there are disagreements.

Are you possibly conflating and contaminating this very specific definition with additional religious concepts that the term does not relate to?

Remember, we are referring to the specific definition and usage of a very specific term "Judeo-Christian" and their literature and areas of theological agreement, not disagreement.
 
If anyone has any advice please let me know, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to me, what is your advice please? 💖

Would you consider it wrong of me if I considered these words 100% Accurate?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

And these words are Symbolic?
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11 [ How is this painful? "smokey torment ascending forever and ever"? ]
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10, James 3:6
[ At Revelation 20:10 it sounds like it's talking about the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet, doesn't it to you? ]
 
I cannot fully explain this subject maybe someone else can?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." - James 3:6


Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?
 
There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10
...
Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?
I understand it that good deeds and bad deeds have an effect upon us and others.
If we destroy ourselves by following evil, then it is extremely difficult to reverse it.
i.e. we become that evil

Eternity belongs to G-d .. I don't pretend to know all about it.
Is "forever and ever" longer than "forever"? :oops:
 
Hi Muhammad_Isa


Muhammad_Isa asked: “Is "forever and ever" longer than "forever"?


The idiom “forever and ever” seems, in English to simply be a redundant idiom. However, this phrase, in the ancient Enochian Hebrew literature occurs as me’olam le’olam.

"Olam" is often translated “eternity” or “forever” (though that is not, strictly it’s meaning and it’s often used to indicate this world and it’s time period, etc.)

The prefix “me’” indicates “from” and the prefix “le’” indicates “to” (or “for”)

Hence, , me’olam Le’olam (rendered “forever and ever”) refers to “forever past” from which ones spirit came out of and “forever future” into which ones spirit is going into. The spirit existed before this life and will exist afterwards in early Judeo-Christian Literature.

Good journey to you Muhammad_Isa
 
The idiom “forever and ever” seems, in English to simply be a redundant idiom. However, this phrase, in the ancient Enochian Hebrew literature occurs as me’olam le’olam.
OK .. I look at the whole (of Scriptures) to help in understanding and interpreting its verses.
I do believe that 'time' belongs to G-d. :)

I also note that people don't seem to have a problem with being "in heaven" forever and ever.
..whatever "forever and ever" actually means.
I think this may be because many people see heaven as simply a reward, rather than a result of
righteousness.
i.e. they see hell as a punishment rather than a result of evil thinking/doing

..The spirit existed before this life and will exist afterwards in early Judeo-Christian Literature..
I understand that from Islamic literature as well.

Good journey to you Muhammad_Isa
..and G-d bless you too.
 
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