No false prophet will be established in Israel

[moralorel]

The Message of Baha’u’llah has given us other ways that we can look at these passages.

Abdul'baha offered this, "God is pure perfection and the creation is absolute imperfection. For God to descend into the degrees of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; rather, His manifestation, dawning, and effulgence are even as the appearance of the sun in a clear, bright, and polished mirror."

This means the Messengers, such as Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, to name a few, become the 'Self of God', the focal point of all the knowledge we have about God and an example.of all the Attributes given by God to humanity. Thus God dwelling with us, are the representatives given by God, the "Annointed Ones" the true Prophets. Only they are the true Prophets.

Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, Abraham, Moses all reside in Israel , and as they are all One with all of God's other given Messengers, such as Zoroaster and Krishna, God rules from Israel via all those God given Names and Attributes.

The dead have arisen, this rising of the dead is not of the flesh, but that is a deviation from this OP.

Can you name a prophet that is established in Isreal, that has revealed scriptures, that I have not mentioned above?

Regards Tony

Where in Israel are these prophets? I can assure you none of the prophets you listed dwell there with their people. If it were so, we would know.

When I see verses that literally say that God will live with His people, I read that to mean that God's people will literally be able to visit Him. I have friends who live in Israel, even family members who are of the same faith as yours, and NONE have ever mentioned the prophets living in Israel.

As for what Abdul'baha has to say about the matter, mankind is supposed to be transformed into perfection in the end. God is NOT transforming into an imperfect creation. His imperfect creation is supposed to shed corruption and become like God. Jesus Himself said that one day humankind would be transformed and be able to see God face to face. So there is zero need for God to become imperfect, because that would defy prophecy and be pointless.

Taking scripture and prophecy and trying to force feed it into an opinion... that is a very slippery slope.

 

[moralorel]

The Message of Baha’u’llah has given us other ways that we can look at these passages.

Abdul'baha offered this, "God is pure perfection and the creation is absolute imperfection. For God to descend into the degrees of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; rather, His manifestation, dawning, and effulgence are even as the appearance of the sun in a clear, bright, and polished mirror."

This means the Messengers, such as Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, to name a few, become the 'Self of God', the focal point of all the knowledge we have about God and an example.of all the Attributes given by God to humanity. Thus God dwelling with us, are the representatives given by God, the "Annointed Ones" the true Prophets. Only they are the true Prophets.

Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, Abraham, Moses all reside in Israel , and as they are all One with all of God's other given Messengers, such as Zoroaster and Krishna, God rules from Israel via all those God given Names and Attributes.

The dead have arisen, this rising of the dead is not of the flesh, but that is a deviation from this OP.

Can you name a prophet that is established in Isreal, that has revealed scriptures, that I have not mentioned above?

Regards Tony

When did the dead arise? I haven't noticed that happening yet!

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

This verse was posted on another forum, it is interesting in the light of this OP, that the Quran offers this.

"17:104 And We said to the Children of Israel after Pharaoh, “Reside in the land, but when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass, We will bring you all together.” (Other translations vary)

MUHSIN KHAN
"And We said to the Children of Israel after him: “Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ [‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) on the earth]. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations). [Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, Vol. 10, Page 338]"

Also

"17:106 ˹It is˺ a Quran We have revealed in stages so that you may recite it to people at a deliberate pace. And We have sent it down in successive revelations."

This verse could indicate that the Quran was revealed over 23 years, which would also reflect that the Quran includes all of God's Messages send down to all the Messengers in the past and on into the future.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

When did the dead arise? I haven't noticed that happening yet!

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. So it is possible we need to look for the dead arising in a differnt light other than a pure material unfolding.

The dead arising could thus be seen as people choosing to embrace the New Messenger sent by God, or being born again.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Where in Israel are these prophets? I can assure you none of the prophets you listed dwell there with their people. If it were so, we would know.

I have been to Israel twice and the way I saw it, they do indeed dwell there, I am assured of that.

Personally I see the God we are to come face to face with, is that of the Messengers, and in prophecy, it was to be the end of ages Messiah, as God is not flesh.

Regards Tony

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

Ezekiel 13 is about false prophets "that prophesy out of their own hearts". God says to them, "Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!" And that they have contributed naught to Isreal "to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord"

This reflects the many warnings the New Testament offers about false prophets.

Ezekial 13 up to verse 9 talks of these false prophets, then we get to verse 9.

9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God. (Bold by me)

God has stated that no false prophets will enter the land of Israel, let alone to the established in Israel.

Verses 10 to 16 are about a wall daubed with untempered morter, a wall that God will bring down. A personal thought on this was the wailing wall and the mortar was the prayers tucked inside the cracks, that then ties to verses 17 to 23.

Verses 17 to 23 I have no solid thoughts about, but they appear to be expanding upon the extent that false prophecy has permeated society as a whole. The extent that false prophecy has influenced our mind and prayers.

So the two main points I will raise are.

1) If a prophet comes to Isreal and is established therein, then verse 9 would indicate they are not false. I see this supports Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

2) It appears verses 10 to 16 could very well be a prophecy about the wailing wall, be it symbolic or has a material unfoldment.

Happy to discuss in a friendly manner.

Regards Tony

The concept of messianic figures in Jewish history is fascinating, especially when considering Jesus (Yeshua). Scholar Bart Ehrman eloquently points out that for most Jews, the idea of Jesus as the Messiah was laughable. He was powerless and met a humiliating end through crucifixion by the Romans. This pattern isn't unique to Jesus. Many others, like Theudas, Menachem ben Judah ben Hezekiah, and Simon ben Kosevah, were also seen as potential messiahs but ultimately failed, facing defeat at the hands of Roman authorities.

In the first century A.D., my people were desperate for leaders to liberate us from Roman oppression, and we believed the messiah would be a descendant of King David. Unfortunately, none of the supposed Davidic descendants succeeded, and many met tragic ends. Take Simon of Perea, for instance; he managed to gather a significant following but was eventually beheaded by the Romans. Another example is Anthronges, who waged a serious war against the Romans but was also defeated.

Then there was Yeshua, a gentle figure who preached peace and couldn't lead a military campaign. He proclaimed himself king of the Jews but was crucified, fitting the pattern of failed messianic claims.

Reflecting on these events, it’s clear that no universally accepted Jewish messiah has emerged because every single one of these figures failed in their missions and was ultimately killed by the Romans.

 

[moralorel]

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. So it is possible we need to look for the dead arising in a differnt light other than a pure material unfolding.

The dead arising could thus be seen as people choosing to embrace the New Messenger sent by God, or being born again.

Regards Tony

What is much more likely is that NONE have risen yet. The very book you quoted, Ezekiel, says that God will physically bring to life the Israelites who didn't make it to Israel before death. He makes it very obvious that they are physically brought back to life. Pretty sure we would have seen this.

 

[moralorel]

I have been to Israel twice and the way I saw it, they do indeed dwell there, I am assured of that.

Personally I see the God we are to come face to face with, is that of the Messengers, and in prophecy, it was to be the end of ages Messiah, as God is not flesh.

Regards Tony

So you met Moses, Elijah, Jesus, etc? Boy do I have questions!

 

[moralorel]

The concept of messianic figures in Jewish history is fascinating, especially when considering Jesus (Yeshua). Scholar Bart Ehrman eloquently points out that for most Jews, the idea of Jesus as the Messiah was laughable. He was powerless and met a humiliating end through crucifixion by the Romans. This pattern isn't unique to Jesus. Many others, like Theudas, Menachem ben Judah ben Hezekiah, and Simon ben Kosevah, were also seen as potential messiahs but ultimately failed, facing defeat at the hands of Roman authorities.

In the first century A.D., my people were desperate for leaders to liberate us from Roman oppression, and we believed the messiah would be a descendant of King David. Unfortunately, none of the supposed Davidic descendants succeeded, and many met tragic ends. Take Simon of Perea, for instance; he managed to gather a significant following but was eventually beheaded by the Romans. Another example is Anthronges, who waged a serious war against the Romans but was also defeated.

Then there was Yeshua, a gentle figure who preached peace and couldn't lead a military campaign. He proclaimed himself king of the Jews but was crucified, fitting the pattern of failed messianic claims.

Reflecting on these events, it’s clear that no universally accepted Jewish messiah has emerged because every single one of these figures failed in their missions and was ultimately killed by the Romans.

Well apparently they are all there in Israel now! You just can't see them. Or hear them. Makes sense, right!?!?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Personally I see the God we are to come face to face with, is that of the Messengers, and in prophecy, it was to be the end of ages Messiah, as God is not flesh.

"To save one lie, a hundred lies have to be spoken" Hindi proverb.
(Ek jhooth ko chipaney ke liye sau jhooth bolne padte hain)
So, to establish the messenger; God, souls, afterlife and prophecies have to be resorted to.

Well apparently they are all there in Israel now! You just can't see them. Or hear them. Makes sense, right!?!?

Makes sense? Hardly.

 

[moralorel]

"To save one lie, a hundred lies have to be spoken" Hindi proverb.
(Ek jhooth ko chipaney ke liye sau jhooth bolne padte hain)
So, to establish the messenger; God, souls, afterlife and prophecies have to be resorted to.

Makes sense? Hardly.

I agree.

 

[RJM]

The very book you quoted, Ezekiel, says that God will physically bring to life the Israelites who didn't make it to Israel before death. He makes it very obvious that they are physically brought back to life.

Do you have a reason to interpret the Valley of the Bones prophecy in Ezekiel 37 as physical resurrection?

There's a thread about it here:

Ezekiel 37

And so the conversation continues from another thread . . . I don't see why not? Ezekiel describes all kinds of strange visions that could hardly have been familiar to his readers? Of course he used language that was familiar to his listeners. Most people back then were illiterate, and so...

www.interfaith.org

 

[RJM]

Taking scripture and prophecy and trying to force feed it into an opinion... that is a very slippery slope.

It seems to be the name of the game

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.

But Jesus was speaking in context:

And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:57-62

So it is possible we need to look for the dead arising in a different light other than a pure material unfolding.

I don't see how you can draw that interpretation of Christ's words from the above passage?

It is the same chapter of Luke that describes the Transfiguration, where Christ reveals his divine form to his closest apostles, which did not happen to any of the other 'messengers' except for Krishna Bhagavad Gita 11

Spoiler: The Transfiguration

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
Luke 9: 29-36

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It seems to be the name of the game


But Jesus was speaking in context:



I don't see how you can draw that interpretation of Christ's words from the above passage?

It is the same chapter of Luke that describes the Transfiguration, where Christ reveals his divine form to his closest apostles, which did not happen to any of the other 'messengers' except for Krishna Bhagavad Gita 11

Spoiler: The Transfiguration

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
Luke 9: 29-36

One would have to consider that interpretation in light of this advice.

Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galatians 6:8

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. Romans 8:5

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. Romans 8:6

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

One would have to consider that interpretation in light of this advice.

Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Galatians 6:8

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. Romans 8:5

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. Romans 8:6

Regards Tony

Agreed to all that. But it's a stretch to try to make Christ's words prophesy Muhammad (pbuh) the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Which seems to be the point of quoting them here?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It is the same chapter of Luke that describes the Transfiguration, where Christ reveals his divine form to his closest apostles, which did not happen to any of the other 'messengers' except for Krishna Bhagavad Gita 11

Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah shared this with their close companions as well, many stories can be given, but one will suffice.

One of the first beleivers in the Bab was his wife, well before the evening of the 22nd May 1844, the dawn of the promised Day of God', when the Bab declared to the first Believer who was searching for Him.

"...Long before the Bab’s declaration to Mulla Husayn, Khadijih Bagum had through her close association and her observation of every aspect of His life, discovered her Husband’s extraordinary spiritual endowments. One memorable night, sometime before the Bab declared His mission, Khadijih Bagum related the events that took place which confirmed her belief in Him.…she saw the upper chamber of the House immersed in light. What was the source of all this light, and where had the lamps come from, she asked herself. But this was not tangible light; it was divine light, and she did not see it with her outward eyes but with her inner sight.
…There she saw that world-illuminating Sun and light-shedding Moon standing in the middle of the room with His hands raised heavenward. While her eyes were fixed upon the dazzling light emanating from His being, a feeling of awe and fright came over her. She wanted to return but was unable to move. Her awe grew to such intensity that she felt stupefied. Arbab, Akhtaran-i-Taban, vol 1, pp. 9-11 (as quoted by Baharieh Rouhani Ma’ani, Twin Divine Trees p. 34).

The Bab would later say to her the next morning:
"Know thou that the Almighty God is manifested in Me. I am the One whose advent the people of Islam have expected for over a thousand years. God has created Me for a great Cause, and you witnessed the divine revelation. Although I had not wished that you see Me in that state, yet God had so willed that there may not be any place in your heart for doubt and hesitation."

Khadijih Bagum relates that as soon as she heard The Bab speak those words, she believed in Him. She prostrated herself before Him and her heart became calm and assured. "From that moment I lived only to serve Him, evanescent and self-effacing before Him, no thought of self ever intruding." H.M. Balyuzi, Khadijih Bagum
.
I can share many such stories, as many people have recorded their experiences.

The story of the Bab’s wife is very moving and also very sad, and full of many amazing stories.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Agreed to all that. But it's a stretch to try to make Christ's words prophesy Muhammad (pbuh) the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Which seems to be the point of quoting them here?

I would just suggest, that does not the recorded passage speak for its own self?

It can be most likely be judged upon, are there any other prophets that we can see, who have been established in Israel and who have been written into the records of Israel?

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. So it is possible we need to look for the dead arising in a differnt light other than a pure material unfolding.
The dead arising could thus be seen as people choosing to embrace the New Messenger sent by God, or being born again.
Regards Tony

Yes, but that does not make it a 'this-or-that' statement, it can be both, it can mean many things, it's not exclusive – what is exclusive is Jesus references all this to Himself, not to another. He is the Principle of life itself ...

When Jesus rose from the dead, it was clearly far from a 'pure material unfolding', as His risen body was unique, not just because it was risen, but also in how it was perceived, and how it manifested as a physical thing in relation to other physical things.

 

[Thomas]

... as God is not flesh.

No-one ever said God is flesh, God become man, God Incarnate, is another matter altogether.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The concept of messianic figures in Jewish history is fascinating, especially when considering Jesus (Yeshua). Scholar Bart Ehrman eloquently points out that for most Jews, the idea of Jesus as the Messiah was laughable. He was powerless and met a humiliating end through crucifixion by the Romans. This pattern isn't unique to Jesus. Many others, like Theudas, Menachem ben Judah ben Hezekiah, and Simon ben Kosevah, were also seen as potential messiahs but ultimately failed, facing defeat at the hands of Roman authorities.

In the first century A.D., my people were desperate for leaders to liberate us from Roman oppression, and we believed the messiah would be a descendant of King David. Unfortunately, none of the supposed Davidic descendants succeeded, and many met tragic ends. Take Simon of Perea, for instance; he managed to gather a significant following but was eventually beheaded by the Romans. Another example is Anthronges, who waged a serious war against the Romans but was also defeated.

Then there was Yeshua, a gentle figure who preached peace and couldn't lead a military campaign. He proclaimed himself king of the Jews but was crucified, fitting the pattern of failed messianic claims.

Reflecting on these events, it’s clear that no universally accepted Jewish messiah has emerged because every single one of these figures failed in their missions and was ultimately killed by the Romans.

Maybe we just have to consider what rule God has chosen.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

God's true Kings rule our hearts, but it is a choice for those that are born again.

Mark 12:16 tells us God gives the rule of earth over to mankind.

"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."

The path to peace has been given, it is now up to our own choices to implement that kingdom as foretold. The transition is well underway, global thought and action have been yearly increasing, the need for Nations to work together is becoming more and more obvious, the need for a global economic system likewise is unfolding as Nations individually borrow well beyond the capacity that the people can pay back.

So many signs that world peace is now not only possible, but that it is inevitable.

Regards Tony