God did tell me through his word.. He would tell you this too if you would read it in the Spirit.. the offer still stands if you want to know how.Blue said:
Scientific spiritulaity- the future of relegion-- what do you think?
- Thread starter patelvipulk
- Start date
Blue
Member
It may be helpful, FaithfulServant, to consider Hoffer's words:
""A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"
(Hoffer.)
What do you think?
""A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"
(Hoffer.)
What do you think?
Ciel
in essence
Blue,
You percieve only "envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty."
And Faithful servant promotes only love.
Where love lives so does God.
Is it not time to drop this role you play of inquisitor.
And allow others their truth.
You percieve only "envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty."
And Faithful servant promotes only love.
Where love lives so does God.
Is it not time to drop this role you play of inquisitor.
And allow others their truth.
Ciel
in essence
Faithful servant,
Your words speak of the celebration and love of God in your life.
Of joy and trust, It is beyond comparison. And full of life and spirit.
Yes there is the voice of God.
Your words speak of the celebration and love of God in your life.
Of joy and trust, It is beyond comparison. And full of life and spirit.
Yes there is the voice of God.
2 Samuel 22: 31 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him. "For who is God, except the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God? God is my strength and power, And He makes my way perfect.Blue said:
Psalms 18:2 The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my strength, in whom I will trust; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man.
Proverbs 3:5 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
What do YOU think?
Amen and Praise God.Ciel said:
Ciel
in essence
Faithful servant,
As another posted a recent reminder;
Love is not arrogant. Love is not conceited or puffed up with pride, does not elevate oneself above others, does not lord it over others.
God speaks through many, it is only through understanding of self that one understands the words of God. In this is humility.
As another posted a recent reminder;
Love is not arrogant. Love is not conceited or puffed up with pride, does not elevate oneself above others, does not lord it over others.
God speaks through many, it is only through understanding of self that one understands the words of God. In this is humility.
Blue
Member
"A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"
Ciel and FS,
I do think you have failed to appreciate the meaning of the quotation.
Ciel... there was no suggestion that FS was being actually 'fanatical' or malicious in any way.
They were Hoffer's strong words for the mindset that just fails to question Faith at a personal level.
FaithfulServant proves the point by posting some Biblical quotations as if they contain universal truths, without any reasoning at all so far as I could see.
I would just humbly suggest that if they constitute answers to Hoffer's point about blind faith, you demonstrate how that can be.
I only ask people to rightfully(value judgement!) question themselves, and stop speaking as if they are pronoucing universal truths.
All I ask is that they never stop questioning their personal validations. I think the Gnostic Gospels concerning the words of Jesus (Philip and Thomas) demonstrate the very same attitude. Blind faith is not what the Lord asked of anyone!
Samuel, Psalms and Proverbs prove nothing. They are not objective, they are poetic affective expressions given value by the writers and the readers from a personal standpoint... they also demand the pre-cognition and background of an affective doctrinal and dogmatic base from which they were written, and have been subsequently read.
Those are the facts. They have nothing to do with my requests that those who exhibit blind faith should question their validations constantly, if their faith is to be worth anything, especially in Christian traditions with respect for the purported words of Jesus of Nazareth.
Does not the traditional 'Creed' in that religion say " I believe" in the
the Church, the Holy Ghost, the Resurrection of the Body, etc... as a matter of doctrine... not 'truth'? That is assumed... and nearly never questioned. I politely ask that it should be questioned, not by me, but by the believers proselytising their faith as 'truth'.
Apologies if this all seems rather strongly worded, but I have endeavoured to state a view rationally and clearly, which like many Bishops in many Churches today also feel is important.... a 'knowing' faith is far stronger than a blind faith... or one that refuses to even face different major Faiths as also possibly having 'faith' of equal value.
This Area of our Community is about 'Belief and Spirituality' and long may we question and seek answers we find more satisfying than unquestioning 'faith' - yes... even if your faith is made more secure and satisfying by being questioned by yourself. That I would truly admire in anyone.
Ciel and FS,
I do think you have failed to appreciate the meaning of the quotation.
Ciel... there was no suggestion that FS was being actually 'fanatical' or malicious in any way.
They were Hoffer's strong words for the mindset that just fails to question Faith at a personal level.
FaithfulServant proves the point by posting some Biblical quotations as if they contain universal truths, without any reasoning at all so far as I could see.
I would just humbly suggest that if they constitute answers to Hoffer's point about blind faith, you demonstrate how that can be.
I only ask people to rightfully(value judgement!) question themselves, and stop speaking as if they are pronoucing universal truths.
All I ask is that they never stop questioning their personal validations. I think the Gnostic Gospels concerning the words of Jesus (Philip and Thomas) demonstrate the very same attitude. Blind faith is not what the Lord asked of anyone!
Samuel, Psalms and Proverbs prove nothing. They are not objective, they are poetic affective expressions given value by the writers and the readers from a personal standpoint... they also demand the pre-cognition and background of an affective doctrinal and dogmatic base from which they were written, and have been subsequently read.
Those are the facts. They have nothing to do with my requests that those who exhibit blind faith should question their validations constantly, if their faith is to be worth anything, especially in Christian traditions with respect for the purported words of Jesus of Nazareth.
Does not the traditional 'Creed' in that religion say " I believe" in the
the Church, the Holy Ghost, the Resurrection of the Body, etc... as a matter of doctrine... not 'truth'? That is assumed... and nearly never questioned. I politely ask that it should be questioned, not by me, but by the believers proselytising their faith as 'truth'.
Apologies if this all seems rather strongly worded, but I have endeavoured to state a view rationally and clearly, which like many Bishops in many Churches today also feel is important.... a 'knowing' faith is far stronger than a blind faith... or one that refuses to even face different major Faiths as also possibly having 'faith' of equal value.
This Area of our Community is about 'Belief and Spirituality' and long may we question and seek answers we find more satisfying than unquestioning 'faith' - yes... even if your faith is made more secure and satisfying by being questioned by yourself. That I would truly admire in anyone.
Hello Blue.. I do not recognize the books of Thomas and Phillip so they dont mean anything to me. I am not compelled to read them I do not feel that they represent the Spirit of Truth because they are used by religions that teach contrary to the Holy Bible.
Thanks for trying though.. My faith has been shaken by more insidious people than you.. once but never again. The only time my faith has been shaken is when I didnt know the Word for myself. If I can have so much peace and certainty from something why would you want me to question that faith? What is really your purpose? Is it even YOUR purpose or something elses? I believe you need to question your motives, Blue.
It comes to mind... plucking the wings from butterflies.
Thanks for trying though.. My faith has been shaken by more insidious people than you.. once but never again. The only time my faith has been shaken is when I didnt know the Word for myself. If I can have so much peace and certainty from something why would you want me to question that faith? What is really your purpose? Is it even YOUR purpose or something elses? I believe you need to question your motives, Blue.
It comes to mind... plucking the wings from butterflies.
Ciel
in essence
Dear Blue,
There is no question. There is only love.
There is no question. There is only love.
B
Bandit
Guest
I am going to make up my own quote.
"A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical UNbeliever is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"
When they come back with the blood stained cross that has a note attatched saying, "King of the Jews" and a box of bones that Says 'bones of Jesus of Nazareth' and the DNA of the bones matches the blood on the cross, is when I will be convinced.
That is what some would consider the religion of the future.
However, Jesus has already moved into the hearts of those who seek him in spirit and truth.
"A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical UNbeliever is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"
When they come back with the blood stained cross that has a note attatched saying, "King of the Jews" and a box of bones that Says 'bones of Jesus of Nazareth' and the DNA of the bones matches the blood on the cross, is when I will be convinced.
That is what some would consider the religion of the future.
However, Jesus has already moved into the hearts of those who seek him in spirit and truth.
Blue
Member
If I can have so much peace and certainty from something why would you want me to question that faith? What is really your purpose? Is it even YOUR purpose or something elses? I believe you need to question your motives, Blue.
======
That is the point, FaithfulServant.
You have a peace and certainty... but then, so did the mythological Lotus Eaters, and so do those of many other religions, spiritual responses and faiths.
Have you not understood that all I am suggesting is that that state of stasis is only made stronger by judicious self questioning? It can never be disturbed, even if someone was to demonstrate the non-existenece of your God... even that would not matter.
That kind of faith, the one which questions, is dynamic, not static.
You demonstrate both the comfort and fallacy of blind faith, yet you make pronouncements on a number of threads, (about for example, 'salvation') as if they are true not only for yourself but for others.
I have no wish to destroy your Faith, nor do I attack it... I only point out that all the truly' faithful of many religions who I count as loved and loving friends all question their faith on an almost daily basis and often pray accordingly for greater clarity of vision. They will argue and question themselves and others.. and I have scarcely heard one word that could be construed as 'proselytising' their faith as a 'truth' for others.
I ask for reason and rationality in a person's faith, be they Catholic Christian, Shinto, Pagan or Hindu, that is all... not just affective declarations.
I follow my own theism in reason as well as faith... hopefully combining the Affective and the Cognitive domains.
========
Ciel,
Your comment is praiseworthy, as it is not hedged about in supernatural delusions, spiritual nonsenses, or any other affective determinants.
Love is what is required in all aspects of life here upon Earth. Love that preserves that true recognition of the individual and recognises all significant others in relation to that individual.
That needs no other input, least of all twisted concepts of 'loving' Gods who may be conceived to prefer one human being over another in a vengeful manner.
Is it not sufficient to simply 'love' rather than hate?
=========
Bandit,
Sadly, your altering of a famous person's words does little for your case, in my opinion.
To an unbeliever, there are no doctrines and dogmas, so your alteration is meaningless and insulting to that famous thinker - there is only what IS, unless you have concrete and material evidence otherwise?
The objective and material domain is what an unbeliever normally places their attention upon.... not wild dogmas, or doctrines defined for him or her by those who may be suffering from delusions.
Your concept of 'Jesus' may be personally satisfying, and I am sure it is sincere from reading your other posts, but that does NOT signify a 'truth' to anyone else but yourself. You cannot make this leap implying this is likely true in any other sense... yet you often do so on these threads, making even quite dogmatic statements.
Some people, dear Bandit, can allow any other spiritual concepts into their hearts in "spirit" and what they validate as a personal 'truth', and there is nothing to say that their Pagan or Hindu conceptualisations are in any essential way different to yours. Your focus is Jesus, they have other foci, which are equally valid in their hearts and souls.
You finish by saying, though I do not see why, that:
"When they come back with the blood stained cross that has a note attatched saying, "King of the Jews" and a box of bones that Says 'bones of Jesus of Nazareth' and the DNA of the bones matches the blood on the cross, is when I will be convinced.
That is what some would consider the religion of the future."
If any of those things were likely to come to pass, all it would prove is that the DNA of blood on a cross was identified with DNA from the bones, and there was a sign with a message on it. What else would that prove? It would hardly be likely to be a foundation for a Church in the past or future, unless some people awarded the facts with some affective significance in their own hearts and souls.
======
That is the point, FaithfulServant.
You have a peace and certainty... but then, so did the mythological Lotus Eaters, and so do those of many other religions, spiritual responses and faiths.
Have you not understood that all I am suggesting is that that state of stasis is only made stronger by judicious self questioning? It can never be disturbed, even if someone was to demonstrate the non-existenece of your God... even that would not matter.
That kind of faith, the one which questions, is dynamic, not static.
You demonstrate both the comfort and fallacy of blind faith, yet you make pronouncements on a number of threads, (about for example, 'salvation') as if they are true not only for yourself but for others.
I have no wish to destroy your Faith, nor do I attack it... I only point out that all the truly' faithful of many religions who I count as loved and loving friends all question their faith on an almost daily basis and often pray accordingly for greater clarity of vision. They will argue and question themselves and others.. and I have scarcely heard one word that could be construed as 'proselytising' their faith as a 'truth' for others.
I ask for reason and rationality in a person's faith, be they Catholic Christian, Shinto, Pagan or Hindu, that is all... not just affective declarations.
I follow my own theism in reason as well as faith... hopefully combining the Affective and the Cognitive domains.
========
Ciel,
Your comment is praiseworthy, as it is not hedged about in supernatural delusions, spiritual nonsenses, or any other affective determinants.
Love is what is required in all aspects of life here upon Earth. Love that preserves that true recognition of the individual and recognises all significant others in relation to that individual.
That needs no other input, least of all twisted concepts of 'loving' Gods who may be conceived to prefer one human being over another in a vengeful manner.
Is it not sufficient to simply 'love' rather than hate?
=========
Bandit,
Sadly, your altering of a famous person's words does little for your case, in my opinion.
To an unbeliever, there are no doctrines and dogmas, so your alteration is meaningless and insulting to that famous thinker - there is only what IS, unless you have concrete and material evidence otherwise?
The objective and material domain is what an unbeliever normally places their attention upon.... not wild dogmas, or doctrines defined for him or her by those who may be suffering from delusions.
Your concept of 'Jesus' may be personally satisfying, and I am sure it is sincere from reading your other posts, but that does NOT signify a 'truth' to anyone else but yourself. You cannot make this leap implying this is likely true in any other sense... yet you often do so on these threads, making even quite dogmatic statements.
Some people, dear Bandit, can allow any other spiritual concepts into their hearts in "spirit" and what they validate as a personal 'truth', and there is nothing to say that their Pagan or Hindu conceptualisations are in any essential way different to yours. Your focus is Jesus, they have other foci, which are equally valid in their hearts and souls.
You finish by saying, though I do not see why, that:
"When they come back with the blood stained cross that has a note attatched saying, "King of the Jews" and a box of bones that Says 'bones of Jesus of Nazareth' and the DNA of the bones matches the blood on the cross, is when I will be convinced.
That is what some would consider the religion of the future."
If any of those things were likely to come to pass, all it would prove is that the DNA of blood on a cross was identified with DNA from the bones, and there was a sign with a message on it. What else would that prove? It would hardly be likely to be a foundation for a Church in the past or future, unless some people awarded the facts with some affective significance in their own hearts and souls.
So basically you have a problem with the fact that I believe what I talk... I do not ask you to believe I am merely discussing my beliefs on this board.. anyone who posts here knows I am a Christian they can take what I say and do whatever they want with it because thats what they are going to do anyways.
B
Bandit
Guest
No problem Blue. I was only trying to show how it can work both ways. Bones are bones, spirit is spirit. Everyone believes in something. Carry on my brother.