moralorel
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We had a lengthy discussion about this under the Adam Myth thread. Feel free to read it. Your statement is missing some key facts.
When interpretations go beyond the text
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QuietPeace
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Please elaborate here .As I think it will assist to further this thread discussion.
remembrance univere
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i understand that Muslims sincerely feel that Mohammad was a genuine " Prophet " but if the Arabs around Mohammad had access to Jewish and Christian texts of the Bible then how is this revelation and prophecy but this seems completely absurd make this claim
Islam goes through this entire process - of "" Re - Processing "" all of this information from the Bible through another spiritual entity called " Gee - briel “ an angel “ and Mohamud is making the claim that all of this information was already written down and with them in the very same exact land where they lived. in Torah and Gospels -
as an already existing written book and an existing faith that was vindicating Islam
MOAHMMAUD HAD THE TORAH AND GOSPELS WITH HIM - all around him - in the very land where he lived, he spoke to Jews and Christians he had opportunity to literally handle and hold a Bible - and he even held the Torah in his very hands and visited often with the Jews discussing their faith.
and yet, his followers go around scrawling and scratching and etching on leaves, bark, wood and sticks, and rocks and skins, something that was already supposed to be already written down and kept preserved in the same exact area where they lived.
How is this something revelatory or prophetic as "" revelations, "" to repeat stories and repeat and recite passages of a book that already supposedly already exists and is well known and spread to hundreds or even thousands or people
- just a few miles away from Mohamud's very doorstep ?
this is revelation from a prophet ?
this is completely foolishness
this very reality is what Muslims completely ignore, the fact that this behavior is not revelation and is not prophecy but simply the creative works of Mohammad and his story time research team re -creating random stories and repeating things that they already have access to and already have learned from Jews and Christians around them,
are we to believe that Mohammad was sent to the Christians and Jews to discuss their faith and research and learn details about their faith but because of the mere fact that he could not read and had mild to severe mental problems and battles with witchcraft and spells and forgot or confused everything he learned and repeated
- this somehow makes him a prophet to contact some spiritual identity - to tell them and remind them what a book says that already exists all around them - just a few miles from their doorstep.
at best could we say that Mohammad and his companions were just simply translators who had very limited writing material but because they managed to remember so much information this makes it all a revelation and prophecy ... ?
i understand that Muslims sincerely feel that Mohammad was a genuine " Prophet " but if the Arabs around Mohammad had access to Jewish and Christian texts of the Bible then how is this revelation and prophecy but this seems completely absurd make this claim
Islam goes through this entire process - of "" Re - Processing "" all of this information from the Bible through another spiritual entity called " Gee - briel “ an angel “ and Mohamud is making the claim that all of this information was already written down and with them in the very same exact land where they lived. in Torah and Gospels -
as an already existing written book and an existing faith that was vindicating Islam
MOAHMMAUD HAD THE TORAH AND GOSPELS WITH HIM - all around him - in the very land where he lived, he spoke to Jews and Christians he had opportunity to literally handle and hold a Bible - and he even held the Torah in his very hands and visited often with the Jews discussing their faith.
and yet, his followers go around scrawling and scratching and etching on leaves, bark, wood and sticks, and rocks and skins, something that was already supposed to be already written down and kept preserved in the same exact area where they lived.
How is this something revelatory or prophetic as "" revelations, "" to repeat stories and repeat and recite passages of a book that already supposedly already exists and is well known and spread to hundreds or even thousands or people
- just a few miles away from Mohamud's very doorstep ?
this is revelation from a prophet ?
this is completely foolishness
this very reality is what Muslims completely ignore, the fact that this behavior is not revelation and is not prophecy but simply the creative works of Mohammad and his story time research team re -creating random stories and repeating things that they already have access to and already have learned from Jews and Christians around them,
are we to believe that Mohammad was sent to the Christians and Jews to discuss their faith and research and learn details about their faith but because of the mere fact that he could not read and had mild to severe mental problems and battles with witchcraft and spells and forgot or confused everything he learned and repeated
- this somehow makes him a prophet to contact some spiritual identity - to tell them and remind them what a book says that already exists all around them - just a few miles from their doorstep.
at best could we say that Mohammad and his companions were just simply translators who had very limited writing material but because they managed to remember so much information this makes it all a revelation and prophecy ... ?
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Whoa, steady on!
Before going further, can I point out a couple of items from our Code of Conduct:
Interfaith.org seeks to fulfil a mission of interfaith dialogue and exploration of others' beliefs while being a place to discuss the intricacies of our own belief in a safe format.
In light of that:
Please respect other members and avoid making posts that may be seen as personally offensive. We don’t allow flame wars here.
We do not allow IO to be used either as a soapbox to aggressively promote any faith or political view, or see any faith or political view to be aggressively attacked.
I would ask you to bear that in mind, as your post does seem to be soap-boxing and quite aggressively attacking the Islamic Faith.
Well, as a Christian, I would point out that the same spiritual entity, whom we know in English as Gabriel, Islam knows in Arabic as Jibril – both names being derived from the Hebrew.
Much like Christ. Matthew spends his entire Gospel arguing that Jesus is the Messiach the Jews have been waiting for. All the New Testament does that, really.
As did Jews, as did Christians, as did everyone, before the invention of printing – you seem to be offending everyone here?
I know! How is the Christian Book of Revelations not seen for what it is, Jewish apocalyptic books repurposed for a Christian audience?
Well many, many important Christians thought the Book of Revelations should not have been counted as canonical.
What is foolishness in the eyes of men is often wisdom .... 1 Corinthians 3:19.
+++
The point is, a Jew could have written exactly what you write, but be talking to Christians – maybe they're your next target after this tirade against Islam?
Had someone done so, as a Christian, I would have stepped up and defended my faith. In light of that, I feel honour bound to step and and defend another's right to believe what they believe.
+++
If you want to understand why Muslims believe as they do, perhaps ask them, although I might suggest you be a tad more polite about it?
Tony Bristow-Stagg
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So do the Bahai', may Allah bless us all with acceptance of Muhammad as the seal of the Prophets (Peace be upon Him)
Regards Tony
Really?
As far as I'm aware, Muhammad lived in a small village in Arabia, miles away from civilisation.
Life was extremely difficult, primarily living on dates and sheep's milk.
Muhammad, peace be with him, had no formal eduction, and didn't read and write.
I believe he did come upon Christians on a visit to Syria .. but he couldn't read.
The Qur'an is a revelation from G-d, dictated to Muhammad through Angel Gabriel, yes.
No .. is there something in particular in the Qur'an that you do not like?
remembrance univere
New Member
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thanks for replying to my comment and i appreciate the opportunity to discuss this
but the truth is very simple
Me disliking or liking the Quran has no basic on the facts of history and the contents of the Quran !
I believe it is the complete reversal, whereupon Muslims themselves have many things about the Torah and Jewish peoples themselves that Muslims absolutely do not like and Muslims are incapable of providing a single shred of evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that the Jews where Mohammed lived were in any conflict or disagreement with the core principle, foundational teachings and basic tenants of religious observance, practice and oracles of God within the very Quran.
in fact, the Jews did not reject Mohammed’s core basic message about God’s laws,
the jews did not disagree with Mohammed about the oneness of God =
the jews did not disagree with anything regarding the moral code of God and his laws about idols and sin and the commandments of God.
the jews around Mohammed believed that God was one single God –
the jews did not worship idols and other God’ s –
in fact the jews around Mohammed - they rejected that jesus was the son of God, the jews accepted every single last commandment that Mohammed concluded about basic critical laws of God
Mohammed mentions nothing about moral or law disagreements that he had with the jews,
the jews around Mohammed - are not shown to have disagreed with Mohammed concerning the Quran or concerning commandment and every single critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammed eventually decided - the jews obeyed and believed.
the Jews did not disagree with Mohammed upon basic principles regarding idols, adultery, murder, theft, the trinity, Sabbath, the oneness of God, the moral obligations of a faith.
in Fact - The Jews held to even a much stricter law and teaching about not divorcing your wife for no just cause or good reason
the jews accepted every single last basic core and basic commandment that Mohammed concluded about basic critical laws of God -
Mohammed mentions nothing whatsoever about morality or Godly law disagreements that he had with the jews
all of the basic principles regarding animal sacrifices, circumcision, idols, adultery, murder, theft, the trinity, sabbath, the oneness of God, even the simple basic moral obligations of justice and morals, all these basic important principles in Islam that the Quran teaches
☞ the Jews themselves also believed perfectly.
The Old Testament still today - holds the same teachings about - animal sacrifices, circumcision, idols, adultery, murder, theft, the sabbath, the oneness of God.
THIS IS VERY TELLING FACT THAT MUSLIMS DISREGARD CONCERNING WHY MOHAMMAD AND THE MUSLIMS AROUND HIM DISLIKED AND HELD GREAT GREAT DISTAIN FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE
1. Muslims fail to point to a single passage of the Quran and show anything that the Jews of the 7 th century were doing in their current scriptures nor in their relationship with God that was against the Quran.
2. Muslims fail to show a single instance where any Jew held a single disagreement with Mohammad concerning every single last critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammed eventually decided
- the jews obeyed and believed = Yet - Mohammud - demands that the jews are the worst creatures that have ever existed on the planet.
this all seems proven to be simply a personal dislike a personal grievance, offence and resentment for the racial personality and existence of the Hebrew people - Muslims dislike something about the Jewish people
Can Muslims can produce a single example of where the jews around Mohammud failed to accept the basic core laws of God or failed to believe and accept in the moral code of every single last thing in the Quran concerning critical laws and faith ?> ?
no, Muslims cannot
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not buy and sell slaves and participate in the slave trade ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not capture women and enslave them and and have sexual intercourse with these slaves without a condition of mutual love and and full agreement of marriage ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews because - the Jews did not practice temporary short term " MUTTAH " marriages just for a few hours or days of sexual gratification ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not teach that divorce for any reason was justified in the eyes of God ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not beat their wives when their wives disobeyed their husbands sexual demands and ?
The Quran condemns and vilifies the Jew, calling them as apes, monkeys and the very lowest and most horrible of all the creatures upon the earth.
the Jew are the very lowest of all creatures. ↩
“Judgement Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jew. The Jew will hide behind the stones and the trees, and the stones and the trees will say, oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew hiding behind me — come and kill him.”
Al-Bukhari, Fath-ul-Bari, no. 3593 and 2925; Muslim, nos. 2921 and 2922; and Al-Tirmidhi, Al-Jami’, no. 2237.
Al-Bukhari, Sahih, Book on merits and virtues, no. 2593; Muslim, Sahih, Book on trials and signs of the Hour, no. 2921; Al-Tirmidhy, Sunan, Book on trials, no. 2236; and Ahmad, vol. 2, p. 135.
Imam Ahmad, vol. 2, p. 67, vol. 3, p. 119, and vol. 4, p. 338; 122, 131, 149, 398, 417, and 530, and vol. 4, p. 217
and Ibn Majah, no. 4128
Quran 4.46 Of those who are Jew ......... Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
Quran 27.76 Surely this Quran declares to the children of Israel most of what they differ in.
Quran 17.4 And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.
Quran 5.51 O you who believe! do not take the Jew and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Quran 5.41 their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jew; ...........they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
in conclusion
if this was just a simple matter of a problem that Mohammad had with a single specific Jewish leader or a specific individual or a group of Jews it would be understandable
but there is nothing in the Quran that disagrees with the Old Testament concerning critical necessary and basic core moral code -
every single commandment and every single critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammud eventually decided the Old Testament still today holds these same exact teachings .....
this dislike for the Jews and the Old Testament goes beyond critical disagreement and is a dislike that Muslims have simply because the Jews are not Arabs and do not unite with Arabs racially and politicaly.
this is the fact. - Muslims Islamic religion is a process where Muslims attempt to set a political and religious trap to ensnare Jews in fiction, contradiction and deceptive snares that are not a part of the Quran nor historical data.
thanks for replying to my comment and i appreciate the opportunity to discuss this
but the truth is very simple
Me disliking or liking the Quran has no basic on the facts of history and the contents of the Quran !
I believe it is the complete reversal, whereupon Muslims themselves have many things about the Torah and Jewish peoples themselves that Muslims absolutely do not like and Muslims are incapable of providing a single shred of evidence whatsoever that demonstrates that the Jews where Mohammed lived were in any conflict or disagreement with the core principle, foundational teachings and basic tenants of religious observance, practice and oracles of God within the very Quran.
in fact, the Jews did not reject Mohammed’s core basic message about God’s laws,
the jews did not disagree with Mohammed about the oneness of God =
the jews did not disagree with anything regarding the moral code of God and his laws about idols and sin and the commandments of God.
the jews around Mohammed believed that God was one single God –
the jews did not worship idols and other God’ s –
in fact the jews around Mohammed - they rejected that jesus was the son of God, the jews accepted every single last commandment that Mohammed concluded about basic critical laws of God
Mohammed mentions nothing about moral or law disagreements that he had with the jews,
the jews around Mohammed - are not shown to have disagreed with Mohammed concerning the Quran or concerning commandment and every single critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammed eventually decided - the jews obeyed and believed.
the Jews did not disagree with Mohammed upon basic principles regarding idols, adultery, murder, theft, the trinity, Sabbath, the oneness of God, the moral obligations of a faith.
in Fact - The Jews held to even a much stricter law and teaching about not divorcing your wife for no just cause or good reason
the jews accepted every single last basic core and basic commandment that Mohammed concluded about basic critical laws of God -
Mohammed mentions nothing whatsoever about morality or Godly law disagreements that he had with the jews
all of the basic principles regarding animal sacrifices, circumcision, idols, adultery, murder, theft, the trinity, sabbath, the oneness of God, even the simple basic moral obligations of justice and morals, all these basic important principles in Islam that the Quran teaches
☞ the Jews themselves also believed perfectly.
The Old Testament still today - holds the same teachings about - animal sacrifices, circumcision, idols, adultery, murder, theft, the sabbath, the oneness of God.
THIS IS VERY TELLING FACT THAT MUSLIMS DISREGARD CONCERNING WHY MOHAMMAD AND THE MUSLIMS AROUND HIM DISLIKED AND HELD GREAT GREAT DISTAIN FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE
1. Muslims fail to point to a single passage of the Quran and show anything that the Jews of the 7 th century were doing in their current scriptures nor in their relationship with God that was against the Quran.
2. Muslims fail to show a single instance where any Jew held a single disagreement with Mohammad concerning every single last critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammed eventually decided
- the jews obeyed and believed = Yet - Mohammud - demands that the jews are the worst creatures that have ever existed on the planet.
this all seems proven to be simply a personal dislike a personal grievance, offence and resentment for the racial personality and existence of the Hebrew people - Muslims dislike something about the Jewish people
Can Muslims can produce a single example of where the jews around Mohammud failed to accept the basic core laws of God or failed to believe and accept in the moral code of every single last thing in the Quran concerning critical laws and faith ?> ?
no, Muslims cannot
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not buy and sell slaves and participate in the slave trade ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not capture women and enslave them and and have sexual intercourse with these slaves without a condition of mutual love and and full agreement of marriage ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews because - the Jews did not practice temporary short term " MUTTAH " marriages just for a few hours or days of sexual gratification ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not teach that divorce for any reason was justified in the eyes of God ?
was Mohamud's dispute with the Jews - because the Jews did not beat their wives when their wives disobeyed their husbands sexual demands and ?
The Quran condemns and vilifies the Jew, calling them as apes, monkeys and the very lowest and most horrible of all the creatures upon the earth.
the Jew are the very lowest of all creatures. ↩
“Judgement Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jew. The Jew will hide behind the stones and the trees, and the stones and the trees will say, oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew hiding behind me — come and kill him.”
Al-Bukhari, Fath-ul-Bari, no. 3593 and 2925; Muslim, nos. 2921 and 2922; and Al-Tirmidhi, Al-Jami’, no. 2237.
Al-Bukhari, Sahih, Book on merits and virtues, no. 2593; Muslim, Sahih, Book on trials and signs of the Hour, no. 2921; Al-Tirmidhy, Sunan, Book on trials, no. 2236; and Ahmad, vol. 2, p. 135.
Imam Ahmad, vol. 2, p. 67, vol. 3, p. 119, and vol. 4, p. 338; 122, 131, 149, 398, 417, and 530, and vol. 4, p. 217
and Ibn Majah, no. 4128
Quran 4.46 Of those who are Jew ......... Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
Quran 27.76 Surely this Quran declares to the children of Israel most of what they differ in.
Quran 17.4 And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.
Quran 5.51 O you who believe! do not take the Jew and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Quran 5.41 their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jew; ...........they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
in conclusion
if this was just a simple matter of a problem that Mohammad had with a single specific Jewish leader or a specific individual or a group of Jews it would be understandable
but there is nothing in the Quran that disagrees with the Old Testament concerning critical necessary and basic core moral code -
every single commandment and every single critical core and basic law and ordinance of God that Mohammud eventually decided the Old Testament still today holds these same exact teachings .....
this dislike for the Jews and the Old Testament goes beyond critical disagreement and is a dislike that Muslims have simply because the Jews are not Arabs and do not unite with Arabs racially and politicaly.
this is the fact. - Muslims Islamic religion is a process where Muslims attempt to set a political and religious trap to ensnare Jews in fiction, contradiction and deceptive snares that are not a part of the Quran nor historical data.
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
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I see there can be no thanks for that rubbish filled post. Looks like cut and paste materials from hate sourced rubbish.
So much of it is ludicrous.
Tony
That makes no sense. What is an Arab? What is a Jew?
You appear to be mixing up religion with race.
I am an Englishman living in the UK. I was raised as a Christian.
My mother was a Christian, and didn't like lies. Nor do I.
Abraham had two sons .. Isaac and Ishmael.
They were both blessed by G-d, and from their seed has "sprung two nations".
The Israelites, and the Arabs. They both have their prophets .. Moses and Muhammad.
Clearly, they don't get along with each other very well.
..a bit like Abel and Cain .. one of them seems to be envious of the other.