Bahai, my change of mind...

P

Postmaster

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,312
Reaction score
3
Points
0
After a lot of research into this religion, I have come to accept that Baha'ulla was not the awaited messenger that Christianity has been waiting for. However I accept that Baha'ulla was indeed a man of God. Baha'ulla in my view was a saint. The impact of Baha’i was not as great as Christianity when first hit the world. What led me to this religion in the first place was something that came within me and the teachings of this religion are truly words of God. But in my view Baha'ulla can't have been a Manifestation of God. We have no documented miracles for a start, now I’m a person who does not need miracles to be convinced of a messenger of God nor should others, but this should be no excuse as to why a messenger can not perform acts of God on earth. Second a manifestation of God shouldn't be expected to have children if he should be devoted to God and his cause, here is man claiming he is the manifestation of God, yet here is a man living the life of a man on earth. Baha'ulla was a saint for all humans and his words are very powerful and there was a purpose for his life. But he was no awaited messenger of something much greater. My personal view.
 
There are indeed miracles in both the Babi and Baha'i Faiths! But we're specifically asked not to use them for teaching as faith shouldn't be predicated on miracles, and so don't tend to mention them....

As to whether a Mainfestation should marry, that is a personal opinion, and something with which many others have no problem--nor was Baha'u'llah the only Divine Messenger to marry, of course!

Peace,

Bruce
 
Thank you for your response I appreciate your feed back as I'm always open minded and open to talk. Like I said if he was no manifestation of God, then he was human. If he was a saint then he had a spiritual purpose and that means that if he was human he was a sinner like any other human. Of course Baha'u'llah was a divine man, but still he would be a sinner like all humans which means its not wrong if he claimed to be something he wasn't in this sense. If masses of people witnessed his miracles then the Baha’i faith would have had no way of controlling the spread of word. In the case of Christianity masses and masses of people were witness of Christ’s miracles. Only a man that would tell people to hush a miracle would be a man that can't perform an act of God on earth.
 
Hi again. :)

We Baha'is do believe that Baha'u'llah lived a perfect and sin-free life, and indeed, even His enemies grudgingly admitted the goodness of His character!

As to the de-emphasis of miracles, this is simply part of his vast humility. And further, His son and successor, 'Abdu'l-Baha, explains in detail (in his book Some Answered Questions why miracles are never a true proof for anyone except eyewitnesses, and sometimes not even for them! This is the more so given that many religious traditions claim miracles!

You can find and read this discussion at www.bahai-library.org by clicking "Baha'i Writings / 'Abdu'l-Baha / Some Answered Questions"; I'm sure you'll find it interesting....

Regards,

Bruce
 
Postmaster said:
Thanks for the link appreciated.
Click to expand...

Thanks for being so candid about your thoughts Postmaster!

I wish you well on your quest and pray that you will be spiirtually rewarded for your search.

Regarding miracles, we are told in the Writings that should God work a great miracle apparent to all peoples and beyond question it would undoubtedly cause all men to submit and agree to that but consider the just and unjust and that such an event would not enthrone God in the hearts of men.

Miracles are accepted in the Baha'i Faith but are not emphasized because they are miracles primarily to the people that have them and those who learn about them second hand can always doubt them... therefore, we acknowledge the existence of miracles but they are not a conclusive proof for most people.

Baha'u'llah challenged the Mullas to agree on a miracle that God in His mercy would perform for them and also asked that should the miracle occur they would owe Him their allegiance. After discussion the Mullas decided not to accept Baha'u'llah's challenge. But this goes to the perfidy of man.

God bless you and keep you!

- Art
 
After discussion the Mullas decided not to accept Baha'u'llah's challenge. But this goes to the perfidy of man.
Click to expand...
A Miracle Performed, the fact they refused one, is a miracle in itself ;)

But there is an issue with false prophets that many religious teachings talk about. Miracles witnessed by the masses and spread uncontrollably are God’s why of saying here is your messenger, now you decided. Because even miracles do not convince everyone, but at least for the open souls they will convince. Baha'i faith tolerates all faiths and that’s something very great, in a way the Baha'i faith is a stepping stone for greater things to come. I personally feel like a Baha'i because I have taken the words of the faith to heart, it compliments my religion very well. I feel that the next major world religion will be a much much greater version of the Baha'i faith, that all or most religions for seen. In the Christian Orthodox religion it is a well know that if someone will be a future saint, the way they die is very hard to the murderer of the martyr saint the murder has problems in putting them to death. This was the issue with the Bab, when had a problem killing him that is a sign of saint hood. What we have are great saint's not a messenger of God.


 
I have to admit, I find a lot in common with your concerns, Postmaster - while there are a lot of concepts within Baha'i that I personally very appealing, I find the focus on Baha'u'llah as a figure very distracting - - - should messengers really be so elevated?

Just a quick chime in. :)
 
The last part of my other post was messed up. What I was trying to say was, that the phenomenon of people who put divine people (Saints) to there death have a hard time, its funny how the bab experienced this when 750 strong fire squad couldn't shoot him for a while during his execution and here's saints in the Greek orthodox religion having the same experience of saints the age of 12 years old not burning when burnt alive by Ottomans, when a murderer has a hard time putting a person to death it is a sign of saint hood. I personally see signs in the Baha'i faith of saints they were humans doing Gods work this means sins are allowed and living as a human (including having children), but not the promised messenger that will cause a massive effect on the world, and it might well be that the Baha'i faith is some sort of advanced sign for something great. Maybe its simply that humans are not ready for these teachings but certain humans are ;) Some of the teachings of Christianity were already taught by Buddists which had a unique and peaceful insight on the world, so it maybe that Baha'i is ahead and not for all humans.
 
Postmaster said:
....I personally see signs in the Baha'i faith of saints they were humans doing Gods work this means sins are allowed and living as a human (including having children), but not the promised messenger that will cause a massive effect on the world, and it might well be that the Baha'i faith is some sort of advanced sign for something great. Maybe its simply that humans are not ready for these teachings but certain humans are ;) Some of the teachings of Christianity were already taught by Buddists which had a unique and peaceful insight on the world, so it maybe that Baha'i is ahead and not for all humans.
Click to expand...

Good points Postmaster... And I see you read some of our history as well!

I think the "crunch" or decisive element always comes to the question what would be that "massive effect on the world"? For Baha'is it was the changing of our world since the mid nineteenth century... the advances in science and other fields, the shrinking of the planet and th e unprecedented international upheavals for us is the "massive effect"...

Baha'is believe the Faith is a Revelation for this age and will prepare for the next age to come...that is, there will be succeeding Revelations from God in the furture.

As to Brian's question why the emphasis on Baha'u'llah? It is because for us Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age... so in our belief God chose Himself through the vehicle for His Manifestation.

Every great Revelation of the past has had a similar interest and emphasis on the Messenger... Baha'u'llah didn't take pride in this for Himself:

"I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

I also think many people can appreciate that the tenets of the Baha'i Faith are progressive and well suited to meeting the needs of humanity in this age and circumstance... That these progressive principles even by themselves are sufficient for many doesn't detract i think from the Revelation itself and where these principles emerged from. For many, the equality of men and women as a religious mandate carries more force than a mere philosophic or social principle.

- Art
 
For many, the equality of men and women as a religious mandate carries more force than a mere philosophic or social principle.
Click to expand...
This is very true.. I understand and respect that, Baha'i faith is certainly more then the word of man, it is the word of God. My argument is that I can't accept Baha'u'llah as manifestation of God and that he was human, meaning that he could lie about who he was as even saints are not free of sin, they are humans with a purpose. Indeed he was a wise man, a Prophet, but the awaited messiah maybe not. It took 300 years for Christianity to become the largest religion in the world, Baha'i faith is already 200 years in. Something very much more powerful is what we need, with signs that the messenger is devoted to God and not living the life of a man. Indeed Baha'u'llah was ahead of his time and its right that a religion was created out of his and the bab’s teachings. I feel that Baha'i faith is a sign of something to come. The majority of humans are not ready for the Baha'i teachings. Here is my guess, as soon as Baha'i faith gets the majority of Islamics converted to its faith, which might be 100s of years from now we might be expecting the manifestation of God again and it will be something as great as Christinaity, I feel he'll come somewhere out of the Mediterranean.
 
Hi again! :)

PM>I can't accept Baha'u'llah as manifestation of God and that he was human, meaning that he could lie about who he was as even saints are not free of sin; they are humans with a purpose.

If He were an ordinary man, indeed He could! But what you overlook is that equally means that maybe He's telling the truth!

And in any case, we do NOT see HIm as an ordinary man, but as a God-sent Divine Messenger, which the Baha'i scriptures explain is a whole different order of creation!

See, according to these Baha'i scriptures, there are five of what we call "Kingdoms of Creation." They are, in ascending order:
- mineral
- vegetable
- animal
- human
- Divine Messenger.
Each has attributes of the lower ones, but also adds something additional. For example, humans add to animal characteristics an eternal soul. And Messengers add direct investiture by the Holy Spirit such that they are all spiritually One and the same, even though each of their human aspects is unique.

And more, EVERY Divine Messenger lives a perfect and sinless life just as the record shows Baha'u'llah did, so that He can in no way be accused of underhandedness or falsehood: EVERYTHING He did affirms His purity and goodness: even His enemies admited His sterling character! Indeed, born wealthy, He gave up literally everything He had and underwent torture, repeeated exiles, and multiple imprisonments solely so He could proclaim the Baha'i Faith!

PM>Indeed he was a wise man, a Prophet, but the awaited messiah maybe not.

And maybe so, too! This seems to be what you overlook....

PM>It took 300 years for Christianity to become the largest religion in the world, Baha'i faith is already 200 years in.

I think it took longer than that to become the largest: you forget how many Hindus and Buddhists there already were in the world by then!

And the Baha'i scriptures state quite explicitly that there will be more Divine Messengers (forever), but that the next will not appear for at least a thousand years (now down to about 850 years minimum. So there's no reason to expect one in a century or so.

I hope all this helps!

Peace,

Bruce
 
We have to be careful, Nelson Mandela spent the vast amount of his life in a jail cell and contributed massively to the human rights of Africans. It was documented that mother Teresa performed Miracles. We all have god in us, all of us do. But a manifestation of God has to be more, a person should feed 1000s of people with one basket of bread and Fish. A person should bring people back to life, and a person should rise himself from the dead to be considered no human, Chrsit was seen walking on water and controlling the weather, am I a victim of ancient liers? Baha'i faith also stands by Christinaity. Thousands and thousands were witness to Christ's miracles, the relgion spread faster then fire. Miracles still do not convince everyone but the open souls. Maybe I have to look deeper to accpet Baha'u'llah as the awaited messenger, maybe I've looked deep enough? This be the least of our issues anyway.
 
Thanks for your post "Postmaster"!

My prayer is that where-ever your search takes you that you will be blessed and filled.

I thought i'd comment a little on the later part of your statement:

Postmaster wrote:

"It took 300 years for Christianity to become the largest religion in the world, Baha'i faith is already 200 years in. Something very much more powerful is what we need, with signs that the messenger is devoted to God and not living the life of a man. Indeed Baha'u'llah was ahead of his time and its right that a religion was created out of his and the bab’s teachings. I feel that Baha'i faith is a sign of something to come. The majority of humans are not ready for the Baha'i teachings. Here is my guess, as soon as Baha'i faith gets the majority of Islamics converted to its faith, which might be 100s of years from now we might be expecting the manifestation of God again and it will be something as great as Christinaity, I feel he'll come somewhere out of the Mediterranean."

I'm unsure about the first reference you've made:

"It took 300 years for Christianity to become the largest religion in the world."

Do you mean it took about three hundred years or so for Christianity to become the State Religion of the Roman Empire? Consider that there were already large numbers of Jews, Buddhists and Hindus as well as Zoroastrians around 300 AD...of course we don't have very accurate stats for those days...but i think just a general assessment could tell us that Christianity was not the largest religion at that time in the world.

The other point i wanted to make was that when Christianity was adopted by the Emperor Constantine there were still large numbers of pagans in the Empire and the Emperor himself still gave some lipservice to the Solar cult.

In the Empire there's some evidence from archeology that Mithraism was as widespread a religion as Christianity among the Roman Legionaires, but again we don't have accurate stats to support this.

Postmaster:

"Baha'i faith is already 200 years in."

The Baha'i Calendar year which began with the Declaration of the Bab in 1844 in 161 in what we call the Baha'i Era or "B.E.". Baha'u'llah declared in the Ridwan Garden near Bagdad that He was the "One Whom God would make manifest" in April of 1863 and it was later more publically known in Constantinople...so probably more accurately we would be a hundred forty two years in rather than "two hundred years in" but i really don't know how important that is by itself... We should be more concerned with the "time" God in His mercy has decreed and so worried about man's particular timetables. We're not really waiting here for a comuter train after all.

Postmaster:

"The majority of humans are not ready for the Baha'i teachings. Here is my guess, as soon as Baha'i faith gets the majority of Islamics converted to its faith, which might be 100s of years from now we might be expecting the manifestation of God again and it will be something as great as Christinaity, I feel he'll come somewhere out of the Mediterranean."

My comment:

I have to say that for me, it would be very difficult to concede that

"The majority of humans are not ready for the Baha'i teachings."

What kind of criteria would we use to arrive at that? I mean I can't speak for "the majority of humans" and really have no idea how i could... but i do strongly feel the Baha'i principles of race unity and world peace are timely ones and have application today...urgently.

Postmaster:

"Here is my guess, as soon as Baha'i faith gets the majority of Islamics converted to its faith, which might be 100s of years from now we might be expecting the manifestation of God again..."

Comment:

Baha'is are not targeting "Islamics" for conversion. True, historically, our Faith generally emerged out of Islam, just as Christianity grew out of or emerged from Judaism...but we don't claim to have a target or goal of converting Moslems.

If Moslems choose to become Baha'is they will be most welcome just as Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians that have joined the Faith and i can tell you from my own persoanl experience that the Baha'i community is one of the places you'll find complete reconciliation and peace between Jews, Moslems and Christians.

As above, we have no timetable for converting "the majority of Islamics". Of more interest to us i think is how we can all get along with each other ...

Will the current regime in Iran lift it's sanctions and begin to recognize the Baha'i Faith as a legitimate religion among others or will it pursue it's present course of repression of a religious minority?

I think as Baha'is we're more involved at oresent in Inter-faith work and encouraging world embracing perspectives.

Baha'is are expecting that in "no less than a thousand years" from Baha'u'llah's statement another Manifestation of God will appear. So in a sense you could say that our Faith is in itself a preparation for the next Manifestation of God.

Again, my best wishes and prayers to you!

- Art
 
I don't stand by what I say as completely accurate, but somewhere a long thoses lines.. You all make very good points and I appreciate all your talk.

"It took 300 years for Christianity to become the largest religion in the world, Baha'i faith is already 200 years in. Something very much more powerful is what we need, with signs that the messenger is devoted to God and not living the life of a man. Indeed Baha'u'llah was ahead of his time and its right that a religion was created out of his and the bab’s teachings. I feel that Baha'i faith is a sign of something to come. The majority of humans are not ready for the Baha'i teachings. Here is my guess, as soon as Baha'i faith gets the majority of Islamics converted to its faith, which might be 100s of years from now we might be expecting the manifestation of God again and it will be something as great as Christinaity, I feel he'll come somewhere out of the Mediterranean."
Click to expand...
As for the above comment, maybe it was longer then 300 years but don't forget that’s before the Far East population was as big as it is today. As for the next awaited messenger of God I said coming is only from what I read I make my guesses.
 
I'm still unsure about this, as I'am now I feel that Baha'u'llah was the manifestation of God.
 
Postmaster said:
I'm still unsure about this, as I'am now I feel that Baha'u'llah was the manifestation of God.
Click to expand...

That's alright...take your time.

Maybe visit some Baha'is around where you are so you can get an idea of what the Baha'i community is like and read some of the Writings.

In the U.S. there's a toll free number 1-800-22-UNITE you can call for free materials and to find where Baha'is nearby.

There's also a pretty active Baha'i internet group at:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/planetbahai/start

that can answer questions.

Pray about it and arrive at your conclusions.

- Art
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top