Thoughts about Trinity beliefs

Longfellow said:
The only part of it that I've found words for is that people don't want do the work that's needed to improve their own character and conduct, so they choose beliefs that don't tell them to do that.
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Ah ... gotcha
 
Thomas said:
Ah ... gotcha
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More generally, they choose beliefs that don't tell them to do anything that they aren't already doing.

Another part of it, maybe more than that, is whatever belief network they identify with, their beliefs conform to that. "I'm a Christian, Christians believe x, so I believe x."
 
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Thomas said:
I can accept suffering if its a process with a beneficial outcome..
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..and that is the conundrum .. are we free to choose our own path, or are we being manipulated?
Assuming we are free to choose, whether or not there would be a "beneficial outcome" would
depend on our repentance .. and changing the path we are on.

Now, you may assume that any sane person would not remain on a path to destruction, but
that is highly debatable .. the human soul is complex, and easily led..

Thomas said:
I cannot accept suffering for its own sake; suffering without purpose or benefit or value ...
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..but as I've pointed out above, it is NOT "for its own sake" .. it is the result of our
own intention and deeds .. and that is for us to determine, assuming we are not insane.

There are many devils in this world .. the most famous of all being satan, the original accuser.
..so will satan eventually repent? Will he go to heaven/paradise?
Only G-d knows that .. but any punishment he receives is NOT "for its own sake" .. it is the
result of his decision not to repent .. and continue to spread evil.

The idea that so-called evil souls are simply blotted out, is not what the Bible and Qur'an teaches.
This is only mankind's idea of what Divine Justice might be .. it assumes that the non-physical soul is made and dies like physical bodies.
That is not a Catholic/Orthodox understanding .. makes no sense to me. That would make a mockery
of life itself .. that souls do not die at physical death, but some sort of lottery occurs, and souls
simply disappear, as if they never were.
 
muhammad_isa said:
..and that is the conundrum .. are we free to choose our own path, or are we being manipulated?
Assuming we are free to choose, whether or not there would be a "beneficial outcome" would
depend on our repentance .. and changing the path we are on.
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What then of those who are mislead? Who misunderstood?

St Paul says our vision is darkened by our fallen, wounded natures. But that then, we shall see clearly.

Are we to accept that once we can see things as they really are, ourselves stripped of our ignorances, assumptions and errors, there is no chance of repentance?

That we are shown the errors of our ways, and even should we recoil in horror ... too late?

muhammad_isa said:
Now, you may assume that any sane person would not remain on a path to destruction, but
that is highly debatable .. the human soul is complex, and easily led..
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Then it is worse for those innocent, who were mislead in their innocence – Jesus speaks of the fate of the offender – better to commit suicide then offend, but are the children also punished for their inherited error?

muhammad_isa said:
..but as I've pointed out above, it is NOT "for its own sake" .. it is the result of our
own intention and deeds .. and that is for us to determine, assuming we are not insane.
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I'm not against punishment where it has a corrective value, but against punishment that achieves nothing but the perpetual torment of the punished? The punishment serves no purpose ... it benefits neither God nor the suffering soul ... I cannot see how a God of Love sees any good in that.

muhammad_isa said:
There are many devils in this world .. the most famous of all being satan, the original accuser.
..so will satan eventually repent? Will he go to heaven/paradise?
Only G-d knows that .. but any punishment he receives is NOT "for its own sake" .. it is the
result of his decision not to repent .. and continue to spread evil.
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But if he does repent?

muhammad_isa said:
The idea that so-called evil souls are simply blotted out, is not what the Bible and Qur'an teaches.
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I'm sorry, but the New Testament can be interpreted that way. In fact the suggestion of that is stronger, Scripturally, than perpetual suffering.

muhammad_isa said:
This is only mankind's idea of what Divine Justice might be .. it assumes that the non-physical soul is made and dies like physical bodies.
That is not a Catholic/Orthodox understanding .. makes no sense to me. That would make a mockery
of life itself .. that souls do not die at physical death, but some sort of lottery occurs, and souls
simply disappear, as if they never were.
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That's not what I am saying, I don't know where you got the idea of some random element from?

Not a lottery at all. God makes souls ... God can unmake souls ...

I have posted separately.
 
Thomas said:
Not a lottery at all. God makes souls ... God can unmake souls ...
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Really? There is some kind of soul factory where souls are made?
What are they made of?
..of course, you cannot say .. because they are not of physical material. :)

We all belong to G-d, and to Him we will return.
G-d is not a person .. not a soul ..
G-d is G-d .. He is One .. and there is nothing comparable to Him.

He is neither male or female, and is the Creator and Maintainer of the Universe.
He is eternal, and is existence itself.
G-d is Absolute, and there is no other like G-d.
The evil that exists is merely part of His creation, due to His making us of free-will.
 
Thomas said:
Are we to accept that once we can see things as they really are, ourselves stripped of our ignorances, assumptions and errors, there is no chance of repentance?
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That depends what you mean by "chance" .. I believe that it is something to do with the nature of our
souls.
It's a bit like falling into a pit .. easy to fall in, but not so easy to get out.

The more we incline to evil, the more damage is done to our souls .. and the more we
"double down" with lies and deceit. :(

I don't anthromorpophize G-d .. as a judge/person making decisions on heaven/hell .. I see our
future destination after death as being a consequence of our deeds.

Our intentions and deeds are no longer hidden .. and wealth/status is no longer relevant.
Who will trust satan in a life hereafter? Who will be his companions?
 
muhammad_isa said:
Really? There is some kind of soul factory where souls are made?
What are they made of?
..of course, you cannot say .. because they are not of physical material. :)

We all belong to G-d, and to Him we will return.
G-d is not a person .. not a soul ..
G-d is G-d .. He is One .. and there is nothing comparable to Him.

He is neither male or female, and is the Creator and Maintainer of the Universe.
He is eternal, and is existence itself.
G-d is Absolute, and there is no other like G-d.
The evil that exists is merely part of His creation, due to His making us of free-will.
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I said 'God made souls, God can unmake souls' – simple as that.

The rest, I have no idea how you see it as relevant to anything I've said?
 
muhammad_isa said:
That depends what you mean by "chance" .. I believe that it is something to do with the nature of our
souls.
It's a bit like falling into a pit .. easy to fall in, but not so easy to get out.
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That's in this world ... I'm talking about the Judgement.

Are we mute? When we are unburdened of all our illusions and delusions, when the truth of our being is laid bare, do we have a chance to repent?

I'm not saying I know the answer ... I'm just challenging the view that assumes we do know the answer.

muhammad_isa said:
The more we incline to evil, the more damage is done to our souls .. and the more we
"double down" with lies and deceit. :(
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Which I can agree to.

There is no impurity in God, nor can there be any impurity in the soul in the face of God – that impurity is 'burnt away', the soul is 'refined by fire' – and I would say then that if the soul is so irredeemably corrupted and mired by sin that once the fire is quenched, there is nothing left – then that person has ceased to exist.

But if there is something left, then that something is pure and good. And God would not send that to eternal punishment.

muhammad_isa said:
I don't anthromorpophize G-d .. as a judge/person making decisions on heaven/hell .. I see our
future destination after death as being a consequence of our deeds.
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OK.

muhammad_isa said:
Our intentions and deeds are no longer hidden .. and wealth/status is no longer relevant.
Who will trust satan in a life hereafter? Who will be his companions?
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Why do you keep bringing satan into this?

I'm talking about us, you, me, him, her ...
 
Thomas said:
I said 'God made souls, God can unmake souls' – simple as that..
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..if that is what you believe..

I believe that G-d created the UNIVERSE .. the time-space continuum.
I believe that the soul does not die at physical death, and is not of physical matter.
i.e. the soul is "from G-d"

G-d cannot be destroyed .. G-d is (or literally 'I will be what I will be') .. existence itself.
The idea of souls somehow being 'created and destroyed', with G-d being the supreme indestructible soul is an alien philosophy to me.
 
Thomas said:
Why do you keep bringing satan into this?

I'm talking about us, you, me, him, her ...
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satan is created, just like you or I..

We are all capable of good and/or evil.
Those who mistakenly turn towards evil ( particularly those who praise satan), are
heading for a similar fate.
 
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Thomas said:
... but none of this says we are irredeemable.
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Mark 3:29 Jesus says that “whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Sorry Thomas, it is pretty clear in the Bible.....does the universalist Bible say the same?
 
Thomas said:
I think it's OK. My harsh comments are directed at those who don't understand the basic doctrine and then criticise it – hence my dismissal of that Christadelphian video as stupid – had I been less hot and bothered, I would simply say that it is, almost entirely, a Straw Man fallacy.
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I do not think they are stupid.
 
muhammad_isa said:
.because our lives would have no cosmic meaning .. no matter what we do, it really makes no
difference, because it is negated by oblivion.
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Must they have cosmic meaning?
Also who says there is no meaning just because it comes to an end?
muhammad_isa said:
Well, that is the whole point .. that our physical death is not the 'end of the story'.
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Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
Conditional immortality - salvation is the resurrection and eternal life - the wicked do not get eternal life.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Conditional immortality - salvation is the resurrection and eternal life - the wicked do not get eternal life.
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That makes no sense to me .. if one knows naught after death, there is nothing to miss.
What does it matter, if one lives forever or is 'blotted out'?

Furthermore, that is NOT what Jesus taught according to the Gospels.
..unless one wishes to explain away verses in the NT as fictional or somehow erroneus.

The claim that G-d somehow 'blots out' souls cannot be verified from Scriptures.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Must they have cosmic meaning?
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Yes .. our lives mean something .. and not just on a superficial level.
i.e. we eat, procreate, and die

History is meaningful .. it has been accurately, cosmically recorded.
Each and every one of us has a part to play.

Our deeds affect our future .. including after death.
It is just too convenient to believe that it only matters in this life .. which a 'blotting out'
philosophy implies.
It implies that a person can murder millions of people, and then commit suicide .. and then be
'blotted out' .. makes no sense.

I also do not believe that souls are created and destroyed .. they are not of physical matter.
It is hard for human beings to imagine the infinite .. and G-d is of an infinite nature.
 
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