My bad. I misread your comment. You wrote "can't repent" and for some reason I read "won't repent".
Thoughts about Trinity beliefs
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otherbrother
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From first article: In the debates, immortality is usually taken to mean the inability of the person to perish.CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY
Destroyed For Ever: An Examination of the Debates Concerning Annihilation and Conditional Immortality
There is no doctrine I would more willingly remove from Christianity than [hell], if it lay in my power … I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully: ‘All will be saved.’1 C.S. Lewis states clearly what is probably true for most modern Christians. Hell may well be unique amongst...www.thegospelcoalition.org
Rethinking Hell: What does “Conditional Immortality” mean?
Conditional Immortality is the view that life or existence is God's provisional gift to all, which will ultimately either be granted or revoked forever.rethinkinghell.com
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Conditional Immortality: Biblical proof of Annihilation in Hell.: Barry, Douglas: 9781482698053: Amazon.com: Books
Conditional Immortality: Biblical proof of Annihilation in Hell. [Barry, Douglas] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Conditional Immortality: Biblical proof of Annihilation in Hell.www.amazon.com
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If we identify with Ultimate Reality (whatever specific form it may or may not have) then, “we” (at least the way we think of ourselves) is by definition immortal because Ultimate Reality would have more staying power than lesser realities. Ultimate Reality is a metaphysical version of wholeness and the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. Parts perish. Wholes (and souls?) don’t.
Now if a person identifies with lesser realities (such as power for power’s sake, love of power instead of power of love), then not only will that person (as identified by the lesser reality) perish, but he or she will suffer dysfunction and pain eventually (if not sooner) because of operating on an inferior principle that is bound to deficit instead of abundance (a part is deficient as compared to a whole). So, the wages of not identifying with the wholeness and abundance of Ultimate Reality is a kind of “hell.” Of course that hell can only last as long as the individual is hitched to the lesser reality. As soon as either the unhealthy attachment dies or the individual as an individual dies, the “hell” dies too. As regards individual death, the question is whether the individual releases into the Universal or Ultimate reality (and so cannot possibly perish) or the individual’s beingness is somehow lost forever. In other words is our being or beingness based on Ultimate Reality or on lesser reality? Where lies the True Self? If with Ultimate Reality, it seems impossible to die. But if it is based on some THING less, both perishablity and suffering is bound to be. What do you connect with? Wholeness? Or part-ness?
otherbrother
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Ditto on that. Seems like an artifact of tribalism. More like “we choose to be THE ones. Exclusionary. The healthier, more loving attitude would be “We all can grow. Let’s help each other do that, and we will eventually all benefit from it. Win/win. Not zero sum.
OK, but we're not talking this life, and it seems our rules don't necessarily apply in the next.
Again, that's in this life. I do not accept that conditional states in this life apply in the next.
If there are eschatological states or condition, then they are according to the will of God.
There is sin/suffering, illusion/ignorance in this world, because of the nature of this world ... but I do not assume the nature of the next is quite the same.
Yes. But God is also merciful ... and is not capricious, cruel, nor unjust.
It's a nonsense scenario.
1: A claim to repentance as a kind of 'get out of jail free' card doesn't cut it ... there has to be genuine and authentic repentance.
2: The process of purgation – perceived as suffering, is a process of refining and reconstituting the soul.
3: Such a soul will not suffer the desire to sin.
In short:
The soul is sick, and akin to addiction, the habit of sin just increases the degradation of the soul.
The soul is then 'cured' or 'purged' or whatever we want to call it.
The soul is no longer subject to its prior habit.
OK. I don't.
I never said we are not. I agree we are. I just believe the 'consequences' are according to the will of God, that said consequences are proportionate, and that God wills only the Good. So I do not believe in disproportionate or negative consequences.
I can accept annihilation as a consequence, although my hope is that no soul is beyond redemption.
I cannot accept eternal punishment for no good or just reason.
Yes. Infinitely so.
Then such a soul would not come through the purgative process ... there's nothing left.
Willed by God, according to Sacred Scripture.
Never said, nor intimated, anything like that.
So do I.
I hope so.
Amen to that.
It was a common-taught assumption, but since VII the interpretation of the text is more nuanced ... you need to ignored the loud voices of the empty vessels.
OK ... but does Christ figure anywhere in this philosophy?
How do you mean?
Why would G-d allow people to suffer in this life, when He could stop it if He so willed?
Why would you assume that G-d would treat us all differently in a life hereafter?
To me, that seems to suggest that you assume that a life hereafter has little connection to this one,
in which G-d suddenly changes what He allows and what He doesn't.
Right .. you assume that reality somehow changes .. with G-d changing what He allows, and what He doesn't.
You also assume that souls can be magically changed beyond their will .. like a serial sex-offender
being permanently cured through some kind of program that reforms them.
You assume that what can't be achieved in this life, can be achieved in the next.
What then is the point of this life? ..with its suffering and injustice?
There would be no point .. as the "happily ever after" scenario could be achieved immediately
without this present world.
I have not claimed otherwise.
No soul will be wronged for something that it is not guilty of.
We effectively torment ourselves, despite G-d's warning to us of what the consequences will be.
The consequences are a result of our deeds, and not of "a cruel G-d".
As there is a reality in this life, that reality does not completely disappear upon death, and a new reality
disconnected with this one appears .. that is only an assumption .. a guess.
Well, that is the general idea .. that people will taste the "lower punishment" of this life, so
happily they will return to a righteous path.
..and there are many people that are saved, and grow in wisdom.
..but sadly, there are many people who refuse to repent, and some even proudly flout
the path of righteousness, promoting an evil path.
..but you suggest that all of that disappears at death, and souls will be cured of their ills
through some process .. or be terminated .. just as they were created in the first place ..
..like some kind of material object is created and destroyed.
I cannot see how that makes sense. Why not just destroy ALL human souls, if it were indeed
possible. What we are not aware of, we do not miss.
Am I greedy to go to paradise, so I can have a good time and enjoy myself?
No .. not particularly .. but I SURE do not want to go to hell !!
I do not make assumptions that I will be snuffed out .. and nor does Jesus teach such
doctrine in the NT.
Nor do I believe in "disproportional consequences"..
..but negative ones? Sure .. I believe that .. I can see that reality happening all the time.
Unfortunately, it is not a case of what we accept .. it is a case of "what is reality".
..and I believe we will both be aware of that reality, as we pass through the various phases
of our spiritual journey (including physical death)
To me, that is like saying that you cannot accept a reality that gravity will always cause
an object to fall towards the earth.
Souls are in charge of themselves .. and the assumption that everybody will be saved is
not realistic.
It has to come from within .. and not from coercion.
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What do you mean it's not borne out of reality?
What in religion is clearly borne out of reality?
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Matthew 10:28 - Fear God Alone
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
biblehub.com
Where hell appears to be referring to a place of destruction.
ECT hell, Purgatory/hell, conditional immortality/annihilation/soul sleep, ghosts, universalism, and very, very rarely, reincarnation, all are theories that people utilize Jewish and Christian scripture to support. The last one, reincarnation, finds very little support in most branches of Christianity or most of the other Abrahamic faiths, (Druze excepted, I believe that is their primary theory) but does have some support in Judaism, all of the theories listed above have some support in Judaism.
Interestingly, the Bible doesn't tend to spell things out in crystal clear elaborate expository detail. So here we go again...
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Ok sure... or well... yes and no...
We don't KNOW for a FACT what is "reality" in the case of the afterlife. We don't. Nobody does.
So what we prefer / can/cannot accept certainly influences how we see the theories -
But even more to the point, when there is something that does not seem logical, moral, or just, we naturally say "well, wait a minute"
Like anytime something just doesn't make sense.
If something just doesn't make sense, there may be or actually is an error in the teaching, the assumptions, the logic.
After all, in this exchange you - @muhammad_isa - are at least partly arguing from the perspective that somehow you think conditional immortality doesn't make sense - just doesn't compute for you. And that you do not think universalism makes sense if I understand you correctly? For you, the idea of hell somehow makes more logical sense?
I don't get it myself, your perspective exactly, but the point I am making is, part of your argument, and the drive for your argument, is that you don't prefer or cannot accept something like universalism or conditional immortality --
But what if one of them is in fact a/the reality that 'gravity' will always cause?
Because there is sin in this life, not in the next.
I have consistently said there is a consequence of our actions. There is a judgement. My hope is that all will be saved.
Well yes. Here we see darkly, our view of reality is illusory, our vision distorted ... There, in the nexy t life, there is no illusion.
We face the truth of ourselves.
You seem to be saying that someone lives, dies, wakes up in the afterlife, and it's pretty much the same as this one, just not in a body?
Clearly, people sin in this life, get away with it, and some have a really fabulous time. If the same conditions apply in the next life, then they can go on sinning, and enjoying themselves? No. Therefore clearly God allows things in this life He does not allow in the next.
I'm saying 'sin' is not inherently part of the soul. God did not create souls to sin. Human will is not the will of the soul, but the will of the flesh. That conditional duality is true.
All beings choose what they believe to be 'good' for them. No being willingly chooses privation ... yet we sin, we engage in self-destructive activities ... clearly we have a very poor grasp of reality ...
I'm hoping that what is lived in this life is not the last word ...
You consistently ignore the central fact that I believe – and hope – that:
There is a consequence of sin – The judgement.
That God is just.
That God wills the good of all creation and will endeavour to bring that good about.
Therefore I do not believe that God wills or accepts eternal suffering for no good reason and no good end. That, effectively, means the inveterate sinner has defeated God.
I see eternal suffering, with no reprieve even though the soul has come to see the truth of its sin, as cruel.
If the soul is repentant but still punished, that is by no means good.
if the soul cannot see its error, then punishment achieves nothing anyway, so nor does that serve any good end.
(By which I mean the soul cannot see the truth of itself, and refuse it. And if it can refuse the real, then no amount of punishment will serve any purpose, as the soul will not know why it is suffering.)
You say that we punish ourselves, and I can agree to that, but God wills the good, and if there is no solution other than allowing us to punish ourselves eternally, then God has lost in that respect, and is not a good God, but only as good as we allow God to be.
How?
Purification is not a coercion. It is an inevitability. We are judged, and not by ourselves. (That would be far worse!)
..that there is a heaven, but no hell .. because "G-d is love".
Our experiences in this life do not suggest that G-d does not allow suffering.
Mmm .. prose that can be interpreted in different ways.Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell..Matthew 10:28 - Fear God Alone
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.biblehub.com
Furthermore, the cherry picking of verses that appear to contradict others in a literal sense, is
not an enlightening way to understand religion.
One needs to understand Scripture in light of the whole.
That is the basis behind the various different sects, that have particularly blossomed since
the Reformation.
I understand the above warning as not to fear mankind, but fear G-d.
i.e. physical death is not final
Yes .. a warning that we can be "undone" .. as well as be successful in our spiritual journey.
You mean, what if it is reality, that a person can murder 1000's of people, and then kill themselves,
and all that will happen is that they cease to exist?
Well, if that is the case, nobody has anything to fear .. it's all a bed of roses.
..might as well finish our lives right now, because I find the world extremely depressing!
..but no! That is what satan wants .. desperation, and failure. The reality in this life, is that what we do has consequences.
I have no reason to believe that upon death, a completely new scenario suddenly occurs.
I cannot understand people who would choose to live forever (given the choice).
I hear many atheists saying the same thing. What is the point?
..and you know this, how?
..and this assumes that G-d allows evil in this life, but otherwise not.
..so why create an evil world in the first place, if He intends no evil?
No, I do not know what "body" I will find myself in after death..
..but I DO believe that this life is part of a greater spiritual journey .. and they are not
disconnected.
Mmm .. our past deeds can no longer be hidden. Lies cannot succeeed in the long run.
..blame it all on the flesh?
I don't think so .. why do people want to go to heaven?
If conditional immortality was true, then why prefer to live forever in luxury, than to
not exist at all?
No! That is a nonsense .. it makes existence itself into irrelevance.
i.e. some souls are the 'chosen ones', whilst the rest can be discarded, and are of no relevance.
That does not address my question..
Why create this universe, if it is possible that souls can be created and destroyed at will?
It would mean that G-d could have created a world in which there was no evil in the FIRST place..
That is contradictory .. G-d accepts sincere repentance.
..if.. if..
..but a person with "learning difficultites" is not held responsible for their actions, for example.
.. G-d is aware of what is in our hearts. Repentance is not a verbal process.
No .. we're going around in circles.
You see G-d as a person who metes out punishment, much like a judge in a courtroom.
I do not see things like that.
Cutting off your nose to spite your face, for example, is self-inflicted.
No, no.
It is not for you or I to say what "a good God" is.
I see a lot of atheists claim that G-d is not "a good God" because He allows evil in this life.
I do not agree .. because I believe in eternity, and not this 'fleeting life'.
Well, I don't know about you .. but I believe in a life hereafter, and I do NOT believe that
isolation from the righteous (due to major sin) will be easy to bear.
What is inevitable?
..that all souls will become righteous?
I don't believe that.
What do you mean by that?
Yes, indeed .. and we are all guilty in some way..
..but the bottom line, is that I see it as illogical that "a good God" can allow people to suffer
from the exploding of atomic bombs in this life, but couldn't possibly allow it
in a life hereafter.
I do not believe God created an evil world, nor does God intend evil.
I checked a couple of things on Islam, and now see that we're basically a Christian view of the afterlife, specifically with regard to eternal punishment, opposed to an Islamic view of the same.
Being a Universalist, I do not and cannot accept eternal punishment something desired by God, as it means the totality of existence is not the Good, but rather only a provisional good, in that there is eternally a place of suffering, of pain and torment, to which fallen souls are consigned.
If that is so, then God is not Good; rather, God is only as good as we allow Him to be.
My own view is of a judgement and a purgation, a purification, the end of which the created being – the soul, if you like – is healed and reconstituted to its original condition.
This purifying process is spoken of in Scripture:
"For no one can lay another foundation beside the one laid down, which is Jesus the Anointed (as the Logos of God, the source of all being). Now, if on this foundation one erects gold, silver, precious stones, woods, hay, straw, each one’s work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire will prove what kind of work each person’s is. If the work that someone has built endures, he will receive a reward; if anyone’s work should be burned away, he will suffer loss, yet he shall be saved, though so as by fire. Do you not know that you are God’s Temple and that God’s Spirit dwells within you? If anyone ruins God’s Temple, God will bring him to ruin; for God’s Temple — which you are — is holy (1 Corinthians 3:11-17, emphasis mine)
As do I.
They can and do in this life ... not in the next.
Not what I said. I said the soul is not the source of evil. I would say the senses are.
Genesis 3:6
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
The Hebrew translated as 'pleasant' is ta-ava, but the meaning is more pointed, it can mean desire as in wish, but also as in lust after, or be covetous of. Likewise the word 'desired' adds to this sense – it was the 'outward form' of the fruit that drew her, not the inward understanding that she should not eat of it ... so in a sense she became a victim of her senses, her passions, and really this is a commentary on the nature of sin, as all sin is a misdirected 'passion', a misdirected act in the pursuit of a perceived good, even when we know its bad.
I don't think so.
Well souls are created by the will of God, are they not?
I think God will not see anything He created brought to ruin, because that means He has failed.
God did create a world in which there was no evil.
Which I argue from the outset.
There cannot be 'insincere repentance' in truth, because insincerity is the absence of truth.
Repentance is a whole-body thing. If you mean one cannot say the words with an insincere heart, I agree ... we can in this world, we can't in the next, the conditions of existence are different. Here illusion rules, there, there are no illusions.
Yes. Youy seem unable to grasp my argument.
Nope.
OK. I do. I think, when faced with Truth and Love, how can the soul not repent its error?
You might argue it 'chooses' not to. I would ask on what possible grounds, other than madness, or a corruption beyond repair ... in which case, eternal punishment serves no good purpose at all, because a mad soul will not understand why it is suffering, and neither will a corrupted soul, so what's the point, and if there is no point, no good, then, again, God's will is defeated, and the Adversary wins.
I think it is we who require the sinner should suffer ... our sense of justice, which is retribution.
I mean I trust in God to be fair, and just and merciful ... and too often humanity demonstrates none of those virtues.
..semantics .. the world contains evil-doers.
I don't think so..
satan is wilfull in his disobedience, as are those that follow him .. they are only
deluded in as much as they have corrupted their souls (wilfully)
No .. there are many different categories of sin .. desire being only one.
satan fell due to pride and arrogance, and refuses to repent.
..souls are OF G-d, and return to Him upon death.
The belief that they were "created" is no more than a guess .. and one which makes little sense to me.
If you could tell me what they are created FROM, I might be more convinced.
All things that I know about that are "created" are physical objects, that are made of atoms/chemical elements/materials.
I believe that G-d "breathes" our soul into us before birth.
..but regardless of what I understand, you have not explained why G-d has created this world,
where you have already agreed, lies and suffering due to oppression, are widespread.
If souls could be created and destroyed at will, then what purpose could it possibly serve?
I mean, all "bad souls" could be immediately destroyed, and there would be no lies and deception.
Oh boy!
We do not live in "a cotton-wool world". There is a genocide going on right now, and you
think you can stop it with "truth and love"?
You must be joking!
That is not to say that G-d does not give us plenty of chances to repent .. He does.
..and that is not to say that the inncocent should be treated in the same way as
the guilty. G-d is the Best of All Judges.
You keep saying that, as if it were your responsibility to reward or punish.
Regards the next life, it is not your responsibility.
In this life, it IS our responsibility. G-d has given mankind the responsibility of policing
ourselves.
Not an easy job .. with all the wars, criminality, sexual deviance and what have-you.
One thing is for sure .. "truth and love" is only part of the answer.
Treason is unacceptable .. the evil will prevail.
..we are not discussing madness..
No .. evil cannot win .. anybody who thinks that has "backed the wrong horse".
No .. revenge is often a form of anger. Torture is not lawful. Life imprisonment is not lawful.
Oppression is not lawful.
Some people might want others to suffer .. satan and those who follow him, CERTAINLY do.
..and of course, anybody is capable of uncontrolled anger. Anger is from satan.
If we are devoted to G-d, we should control it.
A war should not be fought due to rage, but for valid reason .. i.e. defence against those who
wish you harm.
Of course G-d is fair .. no soul will be wronged for what it is not guilty of.
I'm not sure what you mean ... But if you mean God is the source and origin of evil, then I absolutely disagree. It's not semantics to me, it's absolutely fundamental.
I believe evil arises from human choice, not divine will.
If, for example, God created evil, and evil-doers, then they're doing what God ordained, in which case no punishment is justified.
OK, on that we disagree.
OK. I think desire is one of the prime motivators of wrong-action.
It's also the motivator of right-action, so desire in itself is not evil, it's to what end it's directed.
If you're saying souls are the same stuff as God, then again, we disagree.
From the Divine Will.
Because He can. There is no reason why, other than that. If there were a reason, then God would be under some external imperative to act, which I do not believe God is.
+++
Basically I think there's a clash of beliefs here – my Christianity and your Islam.
Universalism is not universally accepted in Christianity. However, I find the logic of universalism irrefutable, and the logic of eternal punishment flawed.
You find my belief illogical or irrational. I'm OK with that, if I've expressed it poorly, then the fault in mine. There are better minds than mine who find it reasonable, rational and logical, and eternal punishment as unreasonable, illogical and detestable.
Well, G-d has created mankind with an independent nature. That is where the evil originates.
Yes .. they are doing "what G-d ordained" in the sense that G-d knew that mankind would sin.
That is NOT to say, that G-d has "ordained" man to sin .. because it is of our own free-will,
and not G-d's will.
On what basis? I see no "stuff"
..but if you mean that we are independent of G-d, then yes ..at least, for a time..
..and that is "stuff"?
Again, makes no sense.
Why make a world in which there is lies and deception, when (according to you), G-d could
have created a paradise immediately .. "because He can".
No, I think not .. it is more of a philosophical debate, that does not negate Christianity.
Your views on "Universalism" do not represent the only Christian viewpoint.
Hmmm .. but I have never argued on the point of what "eternity" represents, as you imply.
I have already agreed with you that eternity represents "a very long time".
I have no knowledge of how long "a piece of string" may be.
I am content with G-d being the Best of All Judges, and that no soul will be wronged for what it is
not guilty of.
Simply, it is not in my power .. not for me to say .. what is fair or unfair, when it comes to the future
of us all.
I do not believe that G-d wants ANYBODY to end up with a tortured soul .. including satan.
Yet, we have been given an independent nature .. we can't have it both ways.
We have to realise that WE are responsible for our futures .. and that is the reality.
Sin can be forgiven .. the problem arises when we refuse to repent .. repentance does
not affect G-d in any way .. it affects ourselves .. but not because G-d does this or that.
..it is ourselves that do the doing. IMHO.