Longfellow
Well-Known Member
I would prefer whatever you thought before you saw this poll. Also, I would like it if you would explain, no matter what your answer is.
Do Christians believe that the Son is the Father?
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Longfellow
Well-Known Member
I said other. I think that "the Son is the Father" is contrary to the teachings of all mainstream churches, and maybe even all modern churches that call themselves "Christian," but I'm not sure. Also, I'm thinking now, much to my surprise, that many people who promote salvation beliefs think that the Son is the Father, and maybe even that you have to believe that, to be saved.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
I stand corrected. Maybe it is not against the teachings of mainstream churches.
The Tradition teaches:
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"God is one because there is one Divinity: unoriginal, simple, beyond being, without parts, indivisible.
The Divinity is both unity and trinity – wholly one and wholly three.
It is wholly one in respect of the essence, wholly three in respect of the hypostases or persons.
For the Divinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and is in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The whole Divinity is in the whole Father and the whole Father is in the whole Divinity.
The whole Divinity is in the whole Son and the whole Son is in the whole Divinity.
The whole Divinity is in the whole Holy Spirit and the whole Holy Spirit is in the whole Divinity.
For the Divinity is not partially in the Father, nor is the Father part of God.
The Divinity is not partially in the Son, nor is the Son part of God.
The Divinity is not partially in the Holy Spirit, nor is the Holy Spirit part of God.
For the Divinity is not divisible; nor is the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit incomplete God.
On the contrary,
the whole and complete Divinity is completely in the complete Father;
the whole and complete Divinity is completely in the complete Son;
the whole and complete Divinity is completely in the complete Holy Spirit.
For the whole Father is completely in the whole Son and Spirit;
and the whole Son is completely in the whole Father and Spirit;
and the whole Holy Spirit is complete in the whole Father and Son.
Therefore, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God.
The essence, power and energy of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one,
for none of the hypostases or persons either exists or is intelligible without the others."
(St. Maximos the Confessor, The Philokalia: The Complete Text, volume 2, pages 137-138.)
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"God is one because there is one Divinity: unoriginal, simple, beyond being, without parts, indivisible.
The Divinity is both unity and trinity – wholly one and wholly three.
It is wholly one in respect of the essence, wholly three in respect of the hypostases or persons.
For the Divinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and is in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The whole Divinity is in the whole Father and the whole Father is in the whole Divinity.
The whole Divinity is in the whole Son and the whole Son is in the whole Divinity.
The whole Divinity is in the whole Holy Spirit and the whole Holy Spirit is in the whole Divinity.
For the Divinity is not partially in the Father, nor is the Father part of God.
The Divinity is not partially in the Son, nor is the Son part of God.
The Divinity is not partially in the Holy Spirit, nor is the Holy Spirit part of God.
For the Divinity is not divisible; nor is the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit incomplete God.
On the contrary,
the whole and complete Divinity is completely in the complete Father;
the whole and complete Divinity is completely in the complete Son;
the whole and complete Divinity is completely in the complete Holy Spirit.
For the whole Father is completely in the whole Son and Spirit;
and the whole Son is completely in the whole Father and Spirit;
and the whole Holy Spirit is complete in the whole Father and Son.
Therefore, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God.
The essence, power and energy of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one,
for none of the hypostases or persons either exists or is intelligible without the others."
(St. Maximos the Confessor, The Philokalia: The Complete Text, volume 2, pages 137-138.)
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
I don't see anything about distinction in there. Do you? In fact it seems to me to erase all possibility of distinction. It says "hypostases" and "persons" but everything that follows makes those nothing but empty words.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
It's starting to look like no one here even knows what I'm talking about when I say "distinct." Hasn't anyone here ever seen or heard of "three distinct persons," or even "not the same person"?
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering, do you think that there can't be anything in the tradition that isn't true? If so, do you think that it has always been that way?
Oh. Maybe you were showing it as an example of the church teaching that the Persons(T) are not the same person. I don't see that in what you quoted. Simply saying the words "wholly three," "hypostases" and "persons" in two lines followed by saying repeatedly in different ways that they are the same person doesn't look to me like teaching people that they are not the same person, and even if it said that clearly, having it in a confession that people mostly never see or hear is not what I mean by teaching.
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We need to know how Jesus is one with the Father, because Jesus prayed that we should be one in exactly the same way. In theory, it should be easy for us mere mortals to understand, we shouldn't need a masters degree in theology.
Could the greatest commandments describe how they are one?
God the Father loves God the Son as he loves himself.
God the Son loves God the Father as he loves himself.
Can there be any greater oneness for both God and humanity?
Could the greatest commandments describe how they are one?
God the Father loves God the Son as he loves himself.
God the Son loves God the Father as he loves himself.
Can there be any greater oneness for both God and humanity?
Yes ...
That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive.
The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son.
In retrospect, I probably should have gone with the Catechism:
"254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another... "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."
They are also distinct in their relation of mission: Creation, Salvation and Sanctification.
Longfellow
Well-Known Member
Thank you. I'm dealing with something that is a surprise to me, that it looks to me now like the distinction is not actually taught by the churches, not even the Orthodox where I was sure that it would be. I mean, taught in a way that most churchgoers would be aware of enough to see a problem with saying that the Son is the Father.
Really?
That some people hold erroneous views or ideas is inevitable, I suppose, but to say it's 'not actually taught' by the churches I think is not the case at all.
No, there's been errors ... no one is infallible.
That's not what it's saying.
It's saying one in divinity, one in essence and nature, in three distinct hypostases or persons.