What the Hell?

[TheLightWithin]

Well I am going by Scripture, which says souls are created.

Does it?
Does scripture define what a soul is?
Lately I've been running across things that distinguish soul and spirit.
In common parlance the words are often used interchangeably. Is this an error?
Is there a distinction? Are soul and spirit clearly defined as different from one another and different from the body?
How clear are these things?

 

[Yahweh kid]

The fire is not an eternal fire – that's a mistranslation of aionios – it doesn't mean eternal.

It is not a mistranslation..... "without beginning and end"....

WARNING: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two hands and go into hell,e into the unquenchable fire.f 45If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.g 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’"

Hell is a place I believe no one wants to be no matter how long you might think the AGE might be.

 

[Yahweh kid]

Does it?
Does scripture define what a soul is?
Lately I've been running across things that distinguish soul and spirit.
In common parlance the words are often used interchangeably. Is this an error?
Is there a distinction? Are soul and spirit clearly defined as different from one another and different from the body?
How clear are these things?

I believe that our souls and spirits are not the same.... when we die the spirit goes back from where it came (God) Ecclesiastes 12:7... so it is the soul that gets either saved or not from eternal damnation/separation from God.

 

[TheLightWithin]

There are arguments supporting Conditionalism/Annihilationism. There's a guy on Facebook called Bro Bird who talks about it ad nauseum. I have his book. There's the website and YouTube channel "Unlearn the lies" I have his book. I haven't been as devoted to proving the point as they have, so I haven't read and internalized their arguments as thoroughly as I might. I take the idea for granted having been sort-of raised with it. From my reading of bible scholars I have come to understand there are always potential misunderstandings based on translation issues. I've come to understand the fact that apparently 4 different words with different concepts were conflated into one word and concept "hell". I have come to understand that many if not most Bible scholars believe the bible is NOT univocal - that is it is not just one single narrative with one point of view, but rather there are different authors with different points of view writing hundreds if not thousands of years apart and not necessarily trying to convey the same message. And out of that, comes the observation that the theory of ECT/infernalism, the theory of purgatory, the theory of universalism, and the theory of conditionalis/annihilationism - are all potentially plausible conclusions that can be drawn from scriptures. So... I don't necessarily conclude that a firm, clear cut, wholly understandable answer is going to be available. It's only certain that debate rages on.

 

[Yahweh kid]

There are arguments supporting Conditionalism/Annihilationism. There's a guy on Facebook called Bro Bird who talks about it ad nauseum. I have his book. There's the website and YouTube channel "Unlearn the lies" I have his book. I haven't been as devoted to proving the point as they have, so I haven't read and internalized their arguments as thoroughly as I might. I take the idea for granted having been sort-of raised with it. From my reading of bible scholars I have come to understand there are always potential misunderstandings based on translation issues. I've come to understand the fact that apparently 4 different words with different concepts were conflated into one word and concept "hell". I have come to understand that many if not most Bible scholars believe the bible is NOT univocal - that is it is not just one single narrative with one point of view, but rather there are different authors with different points of view writing hundreds if not thousands of years apart and not necessarily trying to convey the same message. And out of that, comes the observation that the theory of ECT/infernalism, the theory of purgatory, the theory of universalism, and the theory of conditionalis/annihilationism - are all potentially plausible conclusions that can be drawn from scriptures. So... I don't necessarily conclude that a firm, clear cut, wholly understandable answer is going to be available. It's only certain that debate rages on.

So which option are you going to take as the truth, maybe one that portrays your feelings and thoughts?

 

[TheLightWithin]

So which option are you going to take as the truth, maybe one that portrays your feelings and thoughts?

Your question doesn't make sense to me.
You didn't seem to have read my post.

If you had you would see that my point was there is no reason to think anybody knows or has evidence to assert "the truth" regarding claims or theories about the afterlife. "Sorry" (I added that here, do you see how that can sound?)

More seriously, "taking something as truth" or for anybody to "take something as truth" that "something" has to be convincing. Intellectually, factually, and in many cases, as here, morally. So what it means to be convinced of something is an entire discussion of its own.

 

[Yahweh kid]

Your question doesn't make sense to me.
You didn't seem to have read my post.

If you had you would see that my point was there is no reason to think anybody knows or has evidence to assert "the truth" regarding claims or theories about the afterlife. "Sorry" (I added that here, do you see how that can sound?)

More seriously, "taking something as truth" or for anybody to "take something as truth" that "something" has to be convincing. Intellectually, factually, and in many cases, as here, morally. So what it means to be convinced of something is an entire discussion of its own.

Wow, will you ever find the Truth.... spiritual truth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's one thing for there to be suffering, it's another for it to be eternal with no hope of change, forever and ever. Which is what is claimed.

I think @Thomas has already covered the topic of "eternal" , and I have also commented.

(a very long time)

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hell is a place I believe no one wants to be no matter how long you might think the AGE might be.

Exactly !

 

[Thomas]

Well, most creeds claim that they have 'got it right' ..

With regard to 'aionios' not meaning 'eternal', on balance, taking in Christians and wider Greek literature, it would suggest the term was not meant to imply eternity, but for the duration of the age. So a hell of limited duration is all I'm saying.

..and here you go preferring a 'literal reading' in this instance.
I see the destruction of a soul in a metaphorical sense .. breaking down .. total failure.

Jesus implies here the soul can die – whether it does or not is another matter. I think, if there's one iota of good left in the soul, God will not see it lost.

If G-d can allow suffering in this life, I have no good reason to believe that G-d cannot allow
suffering in a life hereafter.

I have no issue with suffering, just with a doctrine of 'eternal' suffering based on inaccurate translation.

Again, you take verses literally when it fits your "theory" of what G-d is and is not.
..and as I have already pointed out, you are unable to tell us what souls are created FROM!

God is a spirit. Spirits are spirits. Daemons / Djinns are spirits. Souls are spirits. What the substance of spirit is, I have no idea, as it's not subject to empirical determination. However, I also hopld that God trascends spirit, as being beyond all categories.

The Abrahamic belief is that souls are called into existence, as it were. How that works, I have no idea. God made the world, and how that works, I have no idea either.

I do not believe the soul (Hb nephesh, Gk psyche, Lt anima) is the same stuff that God is, that the soul is God – were that the case, then we would be God. If the soul is God, and we do not know we are God, then God suffers ignorance, God is fallible, liable to error and sin ... ergo, because I believe God is not just the best there is of whatever spirit it is, I do not see the soul as the same stuff as God.

There. I hope we are all satisfactorily confused!

The Quran describes the rūḥ in various ways...

Yet again, it is down to interpretion.

Yes, I follow the Bible – both Books – the definitions differ.

בְּאַפָּיו נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים וַיְהִי הָאָדָם לְנֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה׃ וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָאָדָם עָפָר מִן־הָאֲדָמָה וַיִּפַּח
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (neshamah, 'life', 'spirit') of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh, 'soul', 'self', 'life').

 

[Thomas]

Does it?

Genesis 2:7 again:
"And the Lord God (JHWH Elohim) formed man (adam) of the dust of the ground (adama), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (hay neshamah); and man (adam) became a living soul (hay nephesh)."

So God brings life forth from the dust of the ground, and the man of dust became a living being. The Hebrew nephesh, soul, is life.

So God creates life, and that's as about as technical as we can get.

Does scripture define what a soul is?

Only correlates it with 'life', but uses the same terms in talking about the breath of God, and so forth.

Lately I've been running across things that distinguish soul and spirit.

LOL, good luck with that!

Ahem ... here is a link to a post I made TWENTY YEARS AGO! Good Lord, have I been around here that long? Hey, Wil! 20 years, mate!

In common parlance the words are often used interchangeably. Is this an error?

Not really. I think. Only when one starts getting technical.

I mean, the spirit of the occasion ... what does that mean? or 'the spirit of 75'? (as an old petrolhead, I recall some truly awful car designs in the 70s)

Is there a distinction? Are soul and spirit clearly defined as different from one another and different from the body?
How clear are these things?

As fog, I's day ...

I think part of the issue is we have become used to forensic, empirical data as the norm. We're reading stuff from a time when that kind of detail wasn't an issue ...

The Stoics, who were by no means dull, believed in pneuma was the substance of everything from God down, and that pneuma organised matter to make things what they are – stars, people, cats and dogs – in believing pneuma as a substance, albeit a very fine substance, they wrote papers on how two substances, pneuma and matter, could occupy the same space simultaneously.

 

[Thomas]

It is not a mistranslation..... "without beginning and end"....

Can you specify which verses this is in reference to?

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two hands and go into hell,e into the unquenchable fire.f 45If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.g 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’"

This is Mark 9 (Matthew 3 repeats it with minor variations). The way it reads to me is the fire is eternal, not the stuff thrown into the fire – that gets burned up.

The word here for hell is 'gehenna' – the 'Valley of Hinnom' – and here it was said there was a rubbish dump in which fires burned day and night, so contextually, the fires are always burning, but what is thrown into them is consumed.

In Matthew 3, John the Baptist says:
"For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire" (v10)
And the timber burnt ...

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire" (v12)
Here, again, the fire in unquenchable, it does not mean the chaff in unburnable, nor eternally burning...

Hell is a place I believe no one wants to be no matter how long you might think the AGE might be.

That I heartily agree with.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Souls are spirits. What the substance of spirit is, I have no idea..

Mmm..

..as it's not subject to empirical determination.

Precisely .. it's not made of matter .. it's a spiritual concept .. of the very foundation of existence.

The Abrahamic belief is that souls are called into existence, as it were. How that works, I have no idea. God made the world, and how that works, I have no idea either.

That's it .. we believe in that which is hidden from us.

I do not believe the soul (Hb nephesh, Gk psyche, Lt anima) is the same stuff that God is, that the soul is God – were that the case, then we would be God..

No .. we can't be G-d .. G-d is of an infinite nature .. one soul, being part of an infinite phenomena,
cannot be that from whence it comes.

If the soul is God, and we do not know we are God, then God suffers ignorance, God is fallible, liable to error and sin ... ergo, because I believe God is not just the best there is of whatever spirit it is, I do not see the soul as the same stuff as God.

There. I hope we are all satisfactorily confused!

I don't know for sure any more than you do .. the infinite is often hard to fathom.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (neshamah, 'life', 'spirit') of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh, 'soul', 'self', 'life').

Right .. we are not automatons .. we are all part of something greater.

 

[Thomas]

According to the wiki article on Rabbinical Judaism, Gehinnom became a name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead.

According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment, while the fires of Gehinnom are banked and its tortures are suspended.

For the duration of Shabbat, the spirits who are serving time there are released to roam the earth, and at its end, the angel Dumah, who has charge over the souls of the wicked, herds them back for another week of torment. After this the soul will move on to Olam Ha-Ba (the Age or the World to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of conscious remorse.

Rabbi Joshua ben Levi (220-250CE) is said to have wandered through Gehenna, like Dante, under the guidance of the angel Duma. Joshua describes seven chambers of Gehenna, each one presided over by a famous sinner from Jewish history, and populated by deceased sinners suffering brutal punishments. According to another rabbinic story, the ancient Israelite leader Jair once threatened to burn alive those individuals who refused to worship Baal. In response, God sent the angel Nathaniel, who rescued the individuals and declared to Jair that "you will die, and die by fire, a fire in which you will abide forever."

Rabbinic texts contain various answers to the questions of who suffers in Gehenna and for how long. According to the Tosefta, normal sinners are punished in Gehenna for 12 months, after which their souls leave Gehenna and turn into dust; while heretics, those who abandon the community (porshim midarkhei tzibur), and those who cause the masses to sin, suffer in Gehenna eternally. The Talmud states that all who enter Gehenna eventually leave it, except for adulterers, those who humiliate others in public, and those who call others by derogatory names.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi (c. 1200 CE). He maintained that historically, in this valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it; therefore, the judgment of the evil after death was metaphorically named after the valley. While this claim is logically plausible, there is no direct archaeological nor literary evidence for it.

Maimonides declares, in his 13 principles of faith, that the descriptions of Gehinnom as a place of punishment in rabbinic literature, were pedagogically motivated inventions to encourage respect of the Torah commandments by mankind, which had been regarded as immature. Instead of being sent to Gehenna, the souls of the wicked would actually get annihilated.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Instead of being sent to Gehenna, the souls of the wicked would actually get annihilated.

Such wording implies that people are sent somewhere by Yahweh .. as in a prescribed
punishment.

We effectively punish ourselves. The reason why belief in G-d (or belief in Christ etc.) is a
necessary requirement for salvation, is because it has a significant effect on our deeds.

The idea that belief is some kind of magic, and our sins are irrelevant is nonsensical to me.
Many Muslims seem to think like that, so it is not only Christians who might claim such.

It is our sincerity that counts .. are we sincere in faith .. are we sincere in repentance.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Please note that im not adding to scripture when i say this. I believe the enemy has legal rights to us and Jesus took that place on the cross. I dont believe God will send anyone to hell.. they will go simply because they dont belong to Him.

 

[Yahweh kid]

Can you specify which verses this is in reference to?

That was not a verse I took out of the Bible, but rather another common translation...
Here are a few verses you might find interesting....

Greek-English Concordance for αἰώνιος​

Matthew 18:8	“If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg neut) fire.
Matthew 19:16	A young man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do so that I may have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Matthew 19:29	And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for my name’s sake will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
Matthew 25:41	“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed ones, to the eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg neut) fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46	And these will depart to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.”
Mark 3:29	but whoever but blasphemes against the Holy Spirit Holy will never have forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg neut) sin”
Mark 10:17	And as he was going out on the road, a man ran up, and kneeling before him, asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Mark 10:30	who will not receive one hundredfold now in this present time — houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions — and in the coming age, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
Mark 16:8	And going outside, they fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had taken hold of them. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
Luke 10:25	Once a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Luke 16:9	And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal (aiōnious | αἰωνίους | acc pl fem) homes.
Luke 18:18	Now a certain ruler asked him, saying, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Luke 18:30	who will not receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.”
John 3:15	so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 3:16	“For this is how God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 3:36	The one who believes in the Son has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life; but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 4:14	but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water gushing up to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.”
John 4:36	The reaper is already receiving wages and gathering a crop for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together.
John 5:24	I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life and will not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:39	“You study the Scriptures because you think that by them you will have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
John 6:27	Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, which the Son of Man will give you; for on him God the Father has set his seal.”
John 6:40	For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who considers the Son and comes to believe in him should have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47	I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 6:54	The one who feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, and I will raise him up on the last day;
John 6:68	Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life,
John 10:28	and I give them eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life. They will never perish, and no one will ever snatch them out of my hand.
John 12:25	The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world preserves it for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 12:50	And I know that his command is eternal (aiōnios | αἰώνιος | nom sg fem) life. So whatever I say, I speak just as the Father has told me.”
John 17:2	since you have given him authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life to those you have given to him.
John 17:3	And this is eternal (aiōnios | αἰώνιος | nom sg fem) life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.
Acts 13:46	Both Paul and Barnabas spoke boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life, we are now turning to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:48	When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life believed.
Romans 2:7	to those who by patiently doing good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life;
Romans 5:21	so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness leading to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:22	But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification, and its outcome, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
Romans 6:23	For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal (aiōnios | αἰώνιος | nom sg fem) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 16:25	Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that has been kept secret for long ages (aiōniois | αἰωνίοις | dat pl masc) past,
Romans 16:26	but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg masc) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
2 Corinthians 4:17	For our momentary lightness of affliction is producing for us an eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg neut) weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
2 Corinthians 4:18	as we look not on what can be seen, but on the unseen; for what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal (aiōnia | αἰώνια | nom pl neut).
2 Corinthians 5:1	For we know that if our earthly house, the tent we live in, is taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem), in the heavens.
Galatians 6:8	For the one who sows to his own flesh, from the flesh will reap corruption; but the one who sows to the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
2 Thessalonians 1:9	They will experience the punishment of eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg masc) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power
2 Thessalonians 2:16	Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal (aiōnian | αἰωνίαν | acc sg fem) encouragement and good hope by grace,
1 Timothy 1:16	But for this reason I was shown mercy: so that in me as foremost Christ Jesus might display his complete patience as an illustration for those who were to believe in him for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
1 Timothy 6:12	Fight the good fight of the faith. Seize hold of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life, to which you were called and about which you confessed the good confession before many witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:16	the only one having immortality, the one dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no person has seen or is able to see, to him be honor and might forever (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | nom sg neut), Amen.
2 Timothy 1:9	who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time eternal (aiōniōn | αἰωνίων | gen pl masc),
2 Timothy 2:10	On account of this I am enduring all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may experience the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) glory.
Titus 1:2	for the sake of the hope of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life, which God, who does not lie, promised before times eternal (aiōniōn | αἰωνίων | gen pl masc),

 

[iBrian]

So which option are you going to take as the truth, maybe one that portrays your feelings and thoughts?

Wow, will you ever find the Truth.... spiritual truth.

Let's not make discussions personal, please - discussion the posts, not the posters, please.

 

[Thomas]

Please note that im not adding to scripture when i say this. I believe the enemy has legal rights to us and Jesus took that place on the cross. I dont believe God will send anyone to hell.. they will go simply because they dont belong to Him.

I would agree, with a slight variation ... Jesus defeated the 'Archon of this Word' and claimed all being as His own, given to Him by the Father.

All being comes from God, and all being is inherently good, but can turn bad. To stand before God, then, is to stand before a winnowing fire, or a withering gaze, in which all that is not good is, to use the common biblical expression, burned away. That which gets burned away did originate in God, did not come from God, was not willed by God.

Simply, sin is in choosing a lesser good for its immediate pleasure, whereas choosing the greater good might, and often does, involve putting someone or something else before our own immediate appetites. The Seven Deadly Sins are all sins of over-indulgence that in a sense 'damages' the spiritual body in the same way that an addiction (and sins are addictive), be it cigarettes or sugar, alcohol or heroin, damages the physical body.

Which is my roundabout way of saying that if there is one iota of good left in that corrupted spiritual body, then God will see it, and God will save it ... the rest can go to hell.