1) REGARDING JEWISH LITERATURE THAT DESCRIBES JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN GOD, IN THE LOGOS (SON/MESSIAH), AND IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Thomas said: “I'm not aware of any early Jewish text that speaks of God the Father, his Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. If you can point out the early Jewish texts that speak of a trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or Father, Messiah (as a divine being) and Holy Spirit, that would be helpful.”
Clear replied: We have already gone over this but I am happy to do so again. Here are some prior quotes:
a)THE JEWS DESCRIBE THEIR BELIEF IN A GOD AND SON IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS CREATED
In post #14 I gave the example from Jewish Enoch of 300 b.c. where the Prophet says he sees God the Father walking together with his son, the Messiah: “At that place, I saw “he who is of primordial days,” and his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels.”
Enoch then asks the angel with him regarding who the person was who accompanied the Father and why he was with the Father saying:
“And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove the Kings and the mighty ones from their comfortable seats, and the strong ones from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He shall depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship.” (1st Enoch 46:1-6)
This scripture describes their belief in The Father and his Son, the messiah/Christ in the Heavenly realm.
b)THE JEWS BELIEVED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD AS WELL
The Prophet Ezra’s prayer says: “If then I have found favor before you, send the Holy Spirit to me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things which were written in your Law, that men may be able to find the path, and that those who wish to live in the last days may live.” Fourth Book of Ezra 14:22;
“1 Let the one who is to be instructed in piety be taught before baptism: knowledge concerning the unbegotten God, understanding concerning the only begotten son, and full assurance concerning the Holy spirit. Hellenistic Synagogal Prayer” (AposCon 7.39.2-4) (While synagogal prayers originate in Jewish Synagogues, they have been adapted by later Christians so it is difficult to separate their “Jewishness” from their “Christianity”)
Another Hellenistic prayer reads: “You have sent forth the Christ to men as a man, being uniquely born God; you have caused the Paraclete to live in us (AposCon 7.38.1-8);
The following texts from the Dead sea Scrolls describing their belief in the spirit, are (obviously) Jewish in origin.
The Jewish Dead Sea Scrolls also witness to us that the ancient temple centric Jews also believed in the Holy Spirit: “I give thanks to You, O LORD, for You have sustained me with your strength, and your Holy Spirit. 4Q429 Frag. 1 Col. 15:6
4Q427 of the Dead Sea Scrolls relates this same Jewish Doctrine: “And I, the instructor, have known you, O my God, by the spirit which you gave me, and I have listened faithfully to your wondrous council by your holy spirit.
In the dead sea scrolls THANKSGIVING PSALMS (Frags. 10, 24, 42 + 4Q427 Frag. 3 Col. 20) describes their belief in the Holy Spirit, saying : “Over the humble His spirit hovers, and He renews the faithful in His strength.
The import of the spirit for the temple centric Jews is described by their textual witnesses saying : "For only through the spirit pervading God’s true society can there be atonement for a man’s ways, all of his iniquities; thus only can he gaze upon the light of life and so be joined to his truth by his Holy Spirit, 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col. 3
The ancient Jews expressed both their belief in and gratitude for the spirit thusly: “Indeed, You have poured out Your holy spirit upon us, bringing your blessings to us. 4Q504 Col. 5
The texts do not tell us other details but it is obvious that temple-centric Judaism believed in God the Father, and in the Messiah, and in the Holy Spirit since they describe all three in their literature.
Thomas replied: “But as far as I can see, none of the quotes speak of three as a triune of three persons?”
That is correct. Early Judeo-Christian literature describes THEIR version of the trinity and NOT the version adopted by many of the various later Christian movements.
Though the Hebrews believed in a trinity, as their literature demonstrates, their trinity was not a 3=1 trinity (i.e. three individuals as “one” individual), but instead their trinity was still the earlier 3=3 trinity (i.e. three individuals as three individuals). The 3=1 version of the trinity had not yet developed in Judeo-Christian literature at this point in history.
2) THOMAS ASKED FOR EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY JEWISH BELIEF IN GOD, THE SON/MESSIAH, AND THE HOLY GHOST
Thomas said: “But I don't see the texts you offer of Enoch showing the Son of Man present with God at the creation of the world, although I can see that the assumption is not invalid, as the heavens in which they reside are outside the normal time-space we exist in.
Firstly: You did not ask for this.
You asked for ancient literature that showed the ancient description that the Hebrews believed in a trinity of God the Father, His Son (the messiah/son of man/the “word” of John, etc).
Secondly: It would help if you would READ Enoch. The text here is describing a period of time “even before the creation of the sun and the moon…” (i.e. before the creation of the world). This is the same time period John is describing when John writes “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”…”All things were created by him and without him nothing was made.”
Thirdly: We’ve gone over this already, but I am happy to repeat the point again. Enoch says of this pre-creation period of time:
“At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the Before-Time (Lit “before the beginning [or “head”] of days,”), even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts.” 1st Enoch 48:1-7
The text of Enoch is quite specific that it refers to the fact that the Word of God/Messiah/Jesus was with God from BEFORE creation. The Phrase "before the creation of the sun" means "before the creation of the sun" and this refers to the same time period referred to in John 1:1 where John says “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God.”
3) THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT A HUMAN "PERSON"
Thomas said : “I just don't see evidence of the Holy Spirit as a Person, nor do I know of any commentary that does?”
The reason you don’t see evidence of that is because they did not seem to believe the Holy Ghost was a person.
I use the term “individual” (or sometimes “person” like you have done). My motive is to avoid using more nebulous terms such as “character” or “entity”, or “power”, etc.
I notice you also refer to the Holy Ghost as a “person” when you point out that the change in John 1:18 “does not affect the understanding of the Trinity as Three Persons”.
4) THE CHRISTIAN APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTIONS HAVE RELATIONSHIPS AND OFTEN QUOTE THEIR JEWISH VERSIONS
Thomas said : “You quote from the Apostolic Constitutions, but that is a Christian text, not a Jewish one.”
Yes, I did.
If you research just a bit, you will see that the the Christian apostolic constitutions quote from earlier Jewish texts.
For example, the JEWISH Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers are quoted in the CHRISTIAN Apostolic Constitutions.
For example, Prayer #9 of the Hellenistic Synagogal Prayer of the Jews appears in the Apostolic Constitutions 8.5.1-4 & related to 9:1-13. One can thus quote EITHER synagogal prayer #9 OR ApoConst and get the same text.
As I’ve already pointed out and given some examples of, there are often multiple Jewish AND Christian versions of the same ancient narratives.
5) DOES A CHANGE IN BIBLICAL TEXT REFLECT A DESIRE TO CHANGE THE TEXT OR DOES THE CHANGE IN TEXT REFLECT A DESIRE TO LEAVE THE TEXT AS IT IS?
Clear said regarding the change in John 1:18 greek: “4) CHANGING THE TEXT IS ITSELF AN INDICATION OF A DESIRE TO CHANGE THE TEXT.
Thomas replied : “possibly”
Do you have an opposing theory to the logic that “changing the text indicates a desire to change the text”?
Is it possible for example, that “changing the text indicates a desire NOT to change the text”?
Can you elaborate on your theory as to WHY the text was changed without a desire to change the text?
6) DOES CHANGING "UNBEGOTTEN GOD" OF JOHN 1:18 TO READ "UNBEGOTTEN SON" AFFECT THE MEANING (AND THUS THE UNDERSTANDING) OF THE TEXT?
Thomas said: “But it does not affect the understanding of the Trinity as Three Persons”
Such a change to biblical text may not change YOUR model of the trinity, but it does for many others who study the biblical text and its historical theology.
The early concept of God the Father, as an “unbegotten God” versus Johns text describing the Son as a “begotten God” causes a theological shift
There were important historical and theological principles underlying Johns original writing of “unbegotten God” that shift when scribes change the text to “actual writing wrote and is more consistent with the ancient version of the three individuals making up the ancient trinity of three individuals and the old text makes more clear that the Word was a God in his own right and not merely a “Son”. Changes to the text cause distortions to historical study of the Bible.
The earlier version was more consistent with ancient Judeo-Christian beliefs and is, obviously, what the author wrote and intended. Just as the word “God” has a different meaning than the word “Son”, the word “unbegotten” has a different meaning than the word “begotten”. Changes to the language cause distortions to linguistic study of the Bible.
Corruptions of biblical text have an effect on those who are in the process of creating their personal model and beliefs of what the text means. Changes to the text causes distortions to a theology study of the historical Biblical text.
7) DOES GOD TRULY TRANSCEND INTELLECT OF MAN OR DOES MAN SIMPLY LACK KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF GOD?
Thomas said : “As God is understood to transcend the intellect, the intellect cannot encompass God.”
While you feel God transcends your personal intellect, I think God simply transcends current knowledge and understanding.
I don’t know which of us is correct.
I'll have to get to your other points later. Thank you for your clarifications Thomas.
