My Issue With Religion

muhammad_isa said:
No .. babies are totally innocent at birth.
It is their parents/environment that might cause them to go astray.


As above.
When we get to the "age of consent" i.e. adult, we are held resonsible for our actions

Temptation to do wrong is always present, but we are expected to control ourselves.
Most people would think that reasonable.
i.e. that most people are able to control themselves .. hence free-will
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I've been arguing there is no free will. Check out my responses on this thread. Sorry, I do not get long on the web and cannot respond to everyone.
 
rupert333 said:
yet most good people tend to be reasonably well educated and working and of a certain nature.
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I must take issue with this. I was raised by my grandparents. Beyond basic literacy, they had no education. Yet they were as good as any two people I have ever met. As for working, is a rise in unemployment followed by an equivalent rise in bad behaviour?
 
rupert333 said:
Surely God should be punished if we do evil.
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Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us.

Could there be one purpose so great, that possibly even God could not do anything greater?

Could God create anything greater than children in his own image, likeness and nature?
Could God love all his children as he loves himself?

Could the creation of the universe and life hang and depend on the greatest commandments? Could there be any other single greater purpose for God to create the universe and life?

We cannot love God as we love ourselves, as that would bring God down to our level. God gave us the two greatest commandments.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The freedom to love also gives us the freedom to do evil.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loves himself? How did Jesus hold out his hands on the cross, and love the man with the hammer and nails?

We know Jesus prayed on the cross; forgave them Father. To forgive is a great thing to do; but loving your enemy as you love yourself seems so far above just forgiving. Could the ‘Forgiveness of Sins Hang on the Greatest Commandments?
 
iBrian said:
Welcome to IO. :)

And I agree - in my personal worldview there's no place for punishment. It's a placeholder for wanting revenge on people you think have wronged you and others. I don't believe in it. I don't think the Universe does either. :)
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I agree with some caveats.

I can see a role for punishment for the worst of the worst; for tough, challenging reformation for most; for some reflection and purification for even the best amongst us.
 
rupert333 said:
If free will overpowers all taint from dna and life events then all people would do the right thing, all the time...but they don't. so either free will doesn't exist or some are born bad...which is god's fault.

Why do some become evil? It is not free will. so why?
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Free will is one of those vague ideas that is not well defined. I don't know if anybody has ever referred to free will as "overpowering" anything and I am not sure what you mean by "taint" in this context. I'm also not so sure about you referring to "the right thing" as if it were always obvious, clear cut, simple somehow. "Doing the right thing" can be complex and uncertain, absolutely everybody else can think you are wrong. Anyway I am not convinced by the logic of the next statement "either free will doesn't exist or are born bad, god's fault" I guess you could make a case for some things being G-d's fault, but not so much that free will simply does not exist just because you haven't yet seen the the outcome that would convince you that it was.
 
rupert333 said:
You could argue that all taint can be overcome by free will. But that doesn't happen, obviously. So why does one man do evil if it is not out of choice?
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I don't see how anybody could argue that. I don't even know what that means. People choose to take actions that are evil often out of desire to just do or have something - Some people claim that killing animals is murder, or taking their fur is murder, but humans have long killed animals to have their meat and fur. The behavior involves choice and planning. Most people would probably clam they believe murdering another person to take their coat is wrong, but sometimes someone kills someone else because he just wants that coat. This may involve choice and planning or a crime of opportunity. Sexual assaults occur because the assailant wanted to do so, for whatever reason. In all these cases it is physically possible to refrain from those actions.
 
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