Jesus Mythical and Real?

I would simply conclude your interpretation of 10.38 is problematic.
I find you interpretation understandably limited.

In John 17.21-23, Jesus uses the same language of mutual indwelling for his disciples ("that they may all be one, just as (kathōs) you, Father, are in me and I am in you"). Unlike later Christian tradition, Jesus clearly equates the type of unity he shares with the Father to the type of unity he wants for the disciples: "that they may be one, just as (καθὼς) we are one" (17.11).
In the Christian tradition, this parallels Paul's eschatology of 1 Corinthians 15.

If you dare claim the oneness in Chapter 10 means essence but the oneness in Chapter 17 means relational participation, you are admitting that the phrase does not inherently mean ontological equality.
We have two things here: How Jesus' audience heard His words, and how the Tradition understands them. The latter does not contradict the former, but rather illuminates the depth of meaning.

So, as you no doubt know, my belief is that, to quote the familiar aphorism "For God was made man that we might be made gods" (St. Athanasius, and so forth).

Only God can unite creatures to God; therefore, if Christ saves and deifies humanity, and unites all creatures in Himself, He must be fully and ontologically divine, and in that participation is an ontological union – all being arises in God, therefore God is in all being.
 
W-e-l-l ... "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1) and in 1 Corinthians 15:8 he says that Jesus "appeared also to me" which Paul regarded as comparable to the sightings by the disciples. I regard his own account as more reliable than the rather prosaic Luke in Acts.
I’m not thinking that Jesus did not appear to him. Just that if He did, it was not at that time on the road to Damascus.
 
You are qualifying 'divine revelation' according to a human norm. I regard that as a categorical error.
Do you mean that when God speaks directly to anyone, they always understand perfectly what He says? I can’t think of any counterexamples, but I’m not sure that’s true. Anyway, does Paul say that everything he says about Jesus was revealed to him by God?

Then you'd have to evidence that.

You make claims, but never validate them, so I find it hard to see them having any foundation.
I might argue sometimes, but I’m not here to try to convince anyone. I’m saying what looks to me like the best explanation for what we see in the Bible. It’s purely explanatory and not claiming any evidence other than how much and how well it explains what we see in the Bible. That's for each person to judge for themselves. Like I said, I'm just trying to find out if anyone has any reasons for thinking that what I'm saying is not true.
 
I think that's rather rude. Maybe you should pay closer attention to what I write?

Maybe you should stop writing ambiguously. “Not that He is claiming coequality . . . but they do see that He is claiming some order of divinity.” It clearly reads as follows: “It is a fact that Jesus is not claiming coequality, but the Judaeans do see him claiming some order of divinity.”

I think that's rather rude. Maybe you should pay closer attention to what I write?

I wrote in #31:
So, it might well be that they (the Judaeans) are angry with Him (Jesus) for seeking to displace them (the Judaeans), and so want Him (Jesus) dead on any grounds, or they (the Judaeans) actually see that He's (Jesus) claiming more than any man can legitimately claim for himself, in relation to the divine. He (Jesus) asks them (the Judaeans) why they (the Judaeans) should want to stone Him (Jesus):
" 'We stone you not on account of a good work, but rather on account of blasphemy, and because you who are a man make yourself out to be a god.' " (10:33)

They (the Judaeans) are not saying that Jesus claims to be God (cap G, HaShem), but that He (Jesus) is assuming a divine status in His (Jesus') unity with the Father. (The Judaeans are) Not (saying) that He (Jesus) is claiming coequality, coessentiality or consubstantiality, but they (the Judaeans) do see that He (Jesus) is claiming some order of divinity."

It's quite clear.

The fact you heavily annotated it shows it is not clear. You had to insert the words (The Judaeans are saying) to make it clear.

Well there you go – that should have alerted you to your mistake.

LOL! You require your reader to use a much later paragraph to figure out . . . Oh, forget it. I am done with this point, and I have nothing else to say about it.
 
Do you mean that when God speaks directly to anyone, they always understand perfectly what He says?
You think if God chooses to communicate with someone, He can't make Himself understood?

Anyway, does Paul say that everything he says about Jesus was revealed to him by God?
Paul himself says he does not claim every word is a direct revelation, eg. 1 Corinthians 7:12 "I, not the Lord". The Tradition reads a distinction between his apostolic judgments and direct revelation.

Generally, Paul's writings are focussed on 'his' gospel, and when he offers his counsel and judgements, he argues them in light of revelation.

It's clear that in some cases he speaks from a cultural background, such as the relations between men and women (not quite so misogynistic as sometimes painted). But again he also preaches against causing disturbance or scandal. His words on eating meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 is a good example.
 
Because Christ is not like any other prophet mentioned in the Bible.
OK .. but that does not explain "How does Jesus "save and deify" humanity?"

Now, you might say "through dying and rising" .. but how does that save us exactly?
..through what mechanism?
 
I'm not sure any more what this discussion is about. I probably miscommunicated again. What I said about Paul not being infallible was about his Christology. His understanding of those OT passages might not be perfect.
Well, again, who's to say?
 
OK .. but that does not explain "How does Jesus "save and deify" humanity?"

Now, you might say "through dying and rising" .. but how does that save us exactly?
..through what mechanism?
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 "For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
 
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 "For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
How do you interpret that?
Again .. through what mechanism? Some kind of "invisible" saving? What?
 
I find you interpretation understandably limited.


In the Christian tradition, this parallels Paul's eschatology of 1 Corinthians 15.


We have two things here: How Jesus' audience heard His words, and how the Tradition understands them. The latter does not contradict the former, but rather illuminates the depth of meaning.

So, as you no doubt know, my belief is that, to quote the familiar aphorism "For God was made man that we might be made gods" (St. Athanasius, and so forth).

Only God can unite creatures to God; therefore, if Christ saves and deifies humanity, and unites all creatures in Himself, He must be fully and ontologically divine, and in that participation is an ontological union – all being arises in God, therefore God is in all being.

As said above, the phrase itself (I and the Father are one) does not inherently mean an ontological equality. You need later Church tradition to force that onto the text. Let the text speak for itself: The Greek adverb kathōs (καθὼς), meaning “just as” or “in the exact same manner,” does not allow for a change in definition in John 10 and John 17. There is really no point in discussion since you have revealed your bread and butter. That is, “The Tradition does not contradict the former . . .”
 
As said above, the phrase itself (I and the Father are one) does not inherently mean an ontological equality.
Well, that's the age old question, isn't it?

You need later Church tradition to force that onto the text.
🤣 Well you're insisting it should be read a certain way, when every honest scholar will allow it need not be read so prescriptively.

Let the text speak for itself
I wish you would!

There is really no point in discussion since you have revealed your bread and butter.
Sour grapes?

My question is, Can ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν be read to infer ontological equality without offence to the Greek?
And the answer is 'yes'.

Does it necessarily mean that?
And the answer is 'no'.

+++

I think the Biblical Hermeneutics commentary states the case sufficiently:

"Virtually all modern commentators on John 10:30 take the position that the oneness immediately in view here is a functional oneness, or oneness of will, purpose, and action.

D.A. Carson, The Gospel according to John:
Verses 28–29 affirm that both the Father and the Son are engaged in the perfect preservation of Jesus’ sheep. Small wonder, then, that Jesus can say, I and the Father are one. The word for ‘one’ is the neuter hen, not the masculine heis: Jesus and his Father are not one person, as the masculine would suggest, for then the distinction between Jesus and God already introduced in 1:1b would be obliterated, and John could not refer to Jesus praying to his Father, being commissioned by and obedient to his Father, and so on. Rather, Jesus and his Father are perfectly one in action, in what they do: what Jesus does, the Father does, and vice versa (cf. notes on 5:19ff.). (ref 1)

Gerald Borchert, The New American Commentary: John 1–11:
The statement in 10:30 that “I and the Father are one” has been an important battleground of theology. The first matter to note is that the word “one” here is neuter (hen) and not masculine (heis), so the text is not arguing for a oneness of personalities or personae (to use the Latin concept) but rather something akin to a oneness of purpose and will. (ref 2)

None other than John Calvin made this same argument centuries ago in his Commentary on the Gospel according to John:
The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is (ὁμοούσιος) of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father, so that whatever is done by Christ will be confirmed by the power of his Father. (ref 3)

Metaphysical oneness?
D.A. Carson is one of the few who argues, on the basis of many narrow and wide contextual clues, that a metaphysical oneness of essence or substance is also at least partially or tangentially in view. Others who take this position generally cite Carson when they do.

In short, although the words I and the Father are one do not affirm complete identity, in the context of this book they certainly suggest more than that Jesus’ will was one with the will of his Father, at least in the weak sense that a human being may at times regulate his own will and deed by the will of God. If instead Jesus’ will is exhaustively one with his Father’s will, some kind of metaphysical unity is presupposed, even if not articulated. Though the focus is on the common commitment of Father and Son to display protective power toward what they commonly own (17:10), John’s development of Christology to this point demands that some more essential unity be presupposed, quite in line with the first verse of the Gospel. Even from a structural point of view, this verse constitutes a ‘shattering statement’ (Lindars, BFG, p. 52), the climax to this part of the chapter, every bit as much as ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ forms the climax to ch. 8. The Jews had asked for a plain statement that would clarify whether or not he was the Messiah. He gave them far more, and the response was the same as in 5:18; 8:59.(ref 4)
(This last comment of Carson’s echoes the line of reasoning in Simply a Christian’s answer to this same question, that the Jews obviously understood Jesus to be making himself metaphysically one with God or they wouldn’t have taken up stones to stone him. I’ll defer to Simply a Christian’s answer for an excellent and convincing treatment of that idea.)

An important thing to note with respect to the Trinity doctrine (and I guess now I’m going beyond hermeneutics into systematics, so I hope you’ll indulge me briefly) is that these different kinds of oneness are not mutually exclusive. It is a false dichotomy to insist it could only be one or the other. Logically, the persons could certainly be functionally one and not metaphysically one, but if they are one in substance then surely they are also one in will, purpose, and action. So, even if all that’s in view in John 10:30 is functional oneness that wouldn’t rule out or trump metaphysical oneness being found on the basis of other passages. Distinction between the persons is one of the major tenets of trinitarianism, so either way this passage supports the Trinity. Indeed, an argument could be made that the very ambiguity of this passage is evidence for both oneness of essence and distinction of persons—the whole Trinity doctrine in a nutshell. (Underline my emphasis).

Notes
1 Carson, D. A. (1991). The Gospel according to John (p. 394). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans.
2 Borchert, G. L. (1996). The New American Commentary: John 1–11 (Vol. 25A, p. 341). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
3 Calvin, J., & Pringle, W. (2010). Commentary on the Gospel according to John (Vol. 1, p. 417). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
4 Carson, D. A. (1991). The Gospel according to John (p. 395).
 
@Thomas

..as you have not replied to my post #93, I can only assume
that the answer is yes .. i.e. some kind of "invisible" saving :)

A belief that Jesus "saves people" through some unknown mechanism.
 
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