Reasons for thinking that no notes were taken while Jesus and apostles were teaching?

[Thomas]

I’m saying that almost certainly there were witnesses to Jesus and the apostles teaching who wrote notes about what they saw and heard, and that those notes were recopied as needed, until the gospels were written.

OK. I'm saying that:
1 – even allowing that there may have been, we have no idea what they might have contained.
2 – even allowing that there may have been, we have no evidence that they were copied and passed on.
3 – even allowing that there may have been, to what degree the copies were edited in the process would have to be factored in.

What we would dearly like to find, but currently do not have, is any materials we can date to prior to the crucifixion.

We have Paul's letters, all of which are his own Gospel. He mentions the Eucharist, the Crucifixion, and post-Resurrection sightings as being common knowledge. That Jesus was born of a woman and of Davidic descendant, according to the flesh (Romans 1:3; Galatians 4:4); that Jesus had a brother named James (Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5); He had twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 9:5) and He was betrayed during the Last Supper (1 Corinthians 11:23).

Then we have the Four Gospels. Nothing there proves beyond the existence of source materials contemporary with the ministry of Jesus – all of it could be from later traditions, a record of oral and written transmission. We're sure Mark, Matthew and Luke were not eye-witnesses, and pretty sure that the final John was the product of his followers.

The Q-source, if it actually existed – and as a collection if sayings or logia, most probably did – might contain some fictitious as well as authentic sayings, but again there's nothing to say that this logia was not collected well after the time of Jesus.

Not authors. What I’m discussing here is not about people writing stories.

OK. But Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were writing stories ...

I’ll ask you again, do you honestly, sincerely think that it’s possible that there weren’t any witnesses writing notes?

I think that's a possibility, yes. I see not reason to assume someone must have been making notes.

Do you honestly, sincerely think that it’s possible that those would not have been recopied as needed, until the gospels were written?

I honestly and sincerely think that were that the case, then there would have been some reference to them, even if the materials themselves were lost.

What have you read about writing practices at the beginning of the first century?

I'm not questioning writing practice. I'm even proposing above a broader literacy standard than most would allow, but that does not mean in this particular instance that someone must have been writing.

 

[Thomas]

You keep demanding evidence, and saying that there is none, which I take to mean that you have not done any reading about writing practices at the beginning of the first century.

Again, I'm not disputing writing. I'm disputing the assumption of particular writings.

Is there some evidence that you would expect to have, that we don’t have, for a few witnesses to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles writing notes about what they saw and heard?

I would hope for some reference to such ... and in the absence of that, I must assume that no such writings ever existed.

At best, if they did, they're lost, we have no idea what they said, and so can deduce nothing of any use or relevance to the debate.

 

[Thomas]

Me thinks archeologists will tell you there is more evidence of women reading and writing 2000 years ago than there is anyone bringing wax tablets and metal styluses (taking notes) with them to Jesus's speeches or crucifixion.

Oh, for sure.

By 'men only' I meant reading in the synagogue.

 

[Thomas]

I’ll ask you again, do you honestly, sincerely think that it’s possible that there weren’t any witnesses writing notes? Do you honestly, sincerely think that it’s possible that those would not have been recopied as needed, until the gospels were written?

Let's say, for the sake of clarity, that I accept that there were witnesses writing notes.

I have no idea what those notes said. Do you?

And assuming the answer is 'no', where does that leave us?

 

[EricPH]

What I’m discussing here is not about people writing stories. It’s about witnesses to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles writing notes about what they saw and heard. Yes, they could have heard it wrong, or remembered it wrong when they expanded their notes later.

If there is no God, then I can understand why your questions are important. If there is a God and God is in charge, then the human elemant becomes less important.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If there is a God and God is in charge, then the human elemant becomes less important.

Don't you believe that God has made mankind vicegerents on earth?
i.e. in charge of planet earth