The Plagues of Babylon the Great.

[Sajiman]

It took me a while to work up enough courage to write this. I do so since I believe that deception and detachment from reality is one of humanity's greatest challenges, and keeping quiet sets a fire in my bones. I admit that whatever follows here, may be less about truth, and more about how I feel and my passion for a Christianity compatible with reality.

I will try and be as clear and concise as possible, but there will probably be some symbolic language which makes this hard. Also, this is just an opinion. It's not something I care to push in a debate as if I hold the truth. It's more like a witness of what I believe, developed throughout my life and unique experiences. Use it or don't.

I interpret the Biblical Babylon the Great (seen in Rev 18 for example) as humanity's imagination, creativity, symbolic language, abstract thought etc. corrupted to serve the self (existential fears, self significance, self elevation) to create a false reality where the self persists. This leads to belief in the supernatural. This is why many religions despite claiming a selfless position, has the persistence of self as a core pillar of their religious framework, without which it would collapse. Pointing out the contradiction with reality is felt as an attack on this self comfort. So the theist vs atheist debate becomes meaningless, since we tend to prize the self over reality. But this imagined reality is not harmless, in fact, the bloodied history of religion is a reminder of the harm and division it can cause. I want to discuss this grand deception, and the harm or plagues She brings. I believe there is an interpretation of being Christian that can fit reality seamlessly, as well as embody its core values, and can be an escape or return from Babylon. That is why you may notice I have a non-supernatural stance, while using the Bible and symbolic language, and concepts like worship or prayer.

Revelation 18:4: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."
What are the "Plagues of Babylon" in this framework? Let me use some examples of magical thinking vs reality, and they will become clear:

Example 1 (A simple parable): A young boy's father passes away. His mother does not know how to tell the child, so she tells him his father is a hero, fighting in the war. She even writes letters to the boy, pretending to be the father writing from some far away land. The child sometimes asks the mother to go and wait at the docks for his dad's return with the other townsfolk as the ships come in, and she complies, but knows it is impossible. Every time they wait and the father doesn't show, the child is heartbroken. But the kid is sure his dad will come, and even tells his friends. The friends notice it has been years and the war is long over and the boy's dad has not arrived. They point this out to him, but the young man gets angry; he has hope and evidence after all. He reinforces this position unknowingly by interpreting ambiguous things to support it. The priority is not truth, but the construct and comfort.

Plagues: The father being alive in this parable is fabricated. Reality 'judges' fabrications when they fail to produce substance. Every time the boy experiences heartbreak at his father not coming back, it is a plague resulting from this fabrication. Every time he gets angry or emotional and gets impatient with his friends about this, and he may even say he won't be friends with them anymore, it is a plague resulting from this lie. A plague is reality judging the lie.

Example 2 (UFO's, could apply to Bigfoot, Flat earth etc ): The UFO phenomena is well known. The idea that advanced technology or wisdom exists gives us hope that we can achieve a level of tech that may even save the self. So we interpret ambiguity (faded pictures and videos) because that is the only way to make it real. Yet, we never produce any evidence that is substantive. In every single case it just can't bridge over into reality, no matter how high up the echelons of power we take it, no matter how big the movement becomes, it fails to produce substance.

Plagues: Reality continuously judges this phenomena when it fails to produce anything real. People are caught up in it, and form identities around it, and fall to the allure of secret knowledge or find self significance in that. If the world is more mysterious, maybe there is a reality where the self can be more too.

Example 3 (Ghosts and paranormal): I can almost copy paste from the previous ones. Once again it starts with a lie with some motivation, usually related to self. If ghosts are real, then death is not the end, then the self is eternal or just traveling somewhere else. We interpret ambiguity in faded videos or pictures, or bumps in the night to fit this framework. But the ghosts can never step into reality. Every single time they can't manifest anything real.

Plagues: Just like the others, reality judges these fabrications. Every time someone dies and is never seen again, people suffer its plagues because they cant accept the reality that self is a construct of the body, not a source, that death is natural, not unnatural.

Example 4 (Supernatural belief): The source of the supernatural is self concern and existential fear in a reality where the self is a just a construct. It addresses the existential fear of self aware creatures, but has to ignore reality. The Bible calls this self concern the "Father of the lie" (Serpent, Devil, Satan, Dragon) John 8:43-47. It is the beginning of Babylon the Great and religion. It starts with imagination, then interprets ambiguity to structure itself and pretend to be real. That's why in olden days when we did not understand the world, everything was an act of God; wind, rain, sunrise, earthquake etc. There was more ambiguity to use. This 'god does everything' actually has some merit if reality is your god, but it soon devolved into self service. The main purpose of these gods became to preserve the self: Heaven, paradise, reincarnation, oneness etc. Even when God says: "Surely you will die", and his son literally gives up his life as an example to save us from self worship, we still value self over reality. This is how Babylon the Great has the blood of prophets of selflessness on her hands.

Plagues: Just like the other examples, these beliefs fail to step into reality every single time. Every time a prayer goes unanswered, every time the rapture fails, every time Christ fails to come, every time god fails to save a child, every time our faith divides us, sometimes even violently, the lie is judged by reality. When reality judges Babylon the Great, we that are in her magical thinking are plagued. Religious divisions, conflict, superiority, judgment of those that don't believe, shunning, abdicating responsibility for good and evil to entities in the sky, preferring prayer over medicine, the list goes on, but are all plagues of Babylon. Anything good in religion is ironically common in people with no faith too.

The strength of Babylon the Great is her service to self. She provides comfort when we have to face reality and its indifference to the self. But this comfort comes with plagues. In this digital age, I fear, Babylon is becoming more than just supernatural or religion, but a kind of digital detachment too.

We read in Revelation that God judges Babylon, and that He is strong. Magical thinking cannot stand against reality. It will suffer plagues of its detachment if it insists on being real. We can see this in the history of religion. We can see the judgment. God and these supernatural things and detachment do not act mysteriously, or only has plans for the future, or after death, or only if you are chosen; He/it is just failing to be real.

But does this mean we have to face reality and its coldness? No. Imagination, creativity, abstract thought, symbolic thinking can be a pure companion if She avoids the corruption of self, and avoids claiming what She creates is real. We can imagine a life of beauty without forcing it to be real, and subsequently suffering plagues. The feelings we get from lovely stories, paintings, songs, and poetry etc. give a warmth to reality, and this warmth suffers no plagues. She is Eve, and the Woman of Revelation 12; the antithesis of Babylon the Great. She is a beautiful city descending from heaven, a bride adorned for her husband Rev 21:2. She is the antithesis of Babylon. If you understand that I'm speaking about psychological things and a state of mind and not material reality, you can see that this is compatible with reality in the most profound way.

The irony is the grand inversion of meanings in religions like Christianity. Realize how the Cross has become facing opposition to, and the hardships of holding the lie of self significance against a reality where it doesn't matter, instead of giving up the value of self so we can live selflessly. Ironically, the defeat of the suffering of death is not an eternal self, but rejecting the value of the subject. An eternal self actually binds one to the eternal failure of this concept against reality. Its a cage, not freedom. Eternal life is the restraint of self. This is how Jesus is "the resurrection and the life". An eternal self equates to an eternal Plague for mankind if we can't let Babylon fall. We just cant see that her magical thinking has created a city of abominations, and of unclean things.

Revelation 18:4-? "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."
May reality judge her.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Sajiman –

It took me a while to work up enough courage to write this. I do so since I believe that deception and detachment from reality is one of humanity's greatest challenges, and keeping quiet sets a fire in my bones. I admit that whatever follows here, may be less about truth, and more about how I feel and my passion for a Christianity compatible with reality.

I applaud your courage in writing,

It's not something I care to push in a debate as if I hold the truth. It's more like a witness of what I believe, developed throughout my life and unique experiences. Use it or don't.

OK ... I'm not sure on what grounds you'd be prepared or willing to entertain comment or discussion with someone who doesn't agree wholeheartedly with its content.

I interpret the Biblical Babylon the Great (seen in Rev 18 for example) as humanity's imagination, creativity, symbolic language, abstract thought etc. corrupted to serve the self (existential fears, self significance, self elevation) to create a false reality where the self persists.

I think this is a really interesting analogous reading of Babylon, and there's much to unpack.

This leads to belief in the supernatural.

Here we part company, although my definition of 'the natural' or indeed 'reality', allows for that which transcends the individual self, so does not preclude what is commonly understood as 'supernatural'.

In trying to offer anything positive, I think I would say you'd do better to untether the Babylon/psychological analogy from religion per se, and treat it as a broader project, aspected to human nature/psychology.

 

[Sajiman]

Part 2

I guess ill just finish what I feel like saying about Babylon the Great. The point of this second and final part is to show a symbolic thread in the Bible regarding this symbolic figure. It starts in Genesis and moves through the text up to Revelation. I know the thread and coherence may be only in my own mind. I know a non-supernatural stance turns this not into divine authorship, but into evidence of the authors of the Bible struggling with ambiguity of information in regards the struggle between self and selflessness. But it is still fascinating to me.

Rev 17:1 Talks about Babylon sitting on many waters. I alluded to these waters in my OP, as being ambiguity of information and understanding. She uses it to interpret a reality where the self is more than it is. More persistent, resulting in magical and supernatural thinking detached from reality, and unavoidably plagues. This can be more broad and related to psychology and human nature, but I feel the tie to religion is justified, since religion is the most prominent proponent of a self that is more, eternal and cosmically significant when reality is far from that.

Anyway, to get a clearer picture of Babylon, this "sitting on many waters" draws into the picture the symbolism of water in the Bible. I believe it represents information, or data, good or bad, ambiguous and open to interpretation, or purified by selflessness and valuable and grounding one to reality. The self's need for persistence and its existential fear leads us to interpret the ambiguity of information, and gives rise to Babylon's ability to construct a reality where it (self) is significant. Let me list some occurrences of the water symbolism:

Creation:

Gen 1:9 "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

Symbolism: Here we read about the creation account. When our species stepped out of the dark of our evolutionary past into the light of self awareness and understanding, the ambiguity of information was overwhelming. This is why many of our Gods start out in this phase, where we did not understand the world around us. The world was covered in water (information) so to speak; ambiguous, and open to interpretation. One way to interpret reality is selflessly, and it leads to understanding that is close to what is real. In this way the waters were gathered together and solid ground appeared. Something we build on, something real.

We also see later in Genesis that God covers the earth with water again, after the fall of man, and the righteous survive to find new dry land in the story of Noah. We corrupted the earth (understanding) with self interest, and it submerged us into waters (ambiguity) again. It echos our own time of detachment from reality with our self serving religions and digital escape, and rise of personality worship in social media. AI needs to be mentioned too, as it can tailor and shape information to engage the user.

Matt 24:37 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Will how we interpret information overload, meaning, selfishly or selflessly determine if we are taken away by the waters or not? Will it determine If we are lost in the sea of ambiguity or on the dry land of reality?

Red Sea:
Exodus:14 The Hebrews escape Egypt when God parts the waters of the red sea. They cross on dry land while the Egyptians suffer plagues and are swallowed in the depths of the waters.

Symbolism: I think the symbolism is clear by now. Those who interpret ambiguity of information (waters, sea, etc.) in a way leading to selflessness pass through on dry land. Solid and anchored in reality. While those lost to selfish interpretations drown and notably suffer plagues. Similar to Babylon, when reality judges the lies. We see through the story of the bible how Israel tarnishes the name of God though, and how Jesus glorifies his name again with selflessness.

Jordan River:
Joshua 3: They pass through the Jordan river on dry ground, heading to the promised land.

Symbolism: Just the same symbolic imagery. Passing through the waters on solid ground. Information -> Selfless interpretation -> Reality.

Baptism:
In baptism, we are submerged in water, then rise out of it back to solid ground.

Symbolism: The same symbols are present here. We are not washed clean by the water, but we show we are able to find selflessness and rise out of ambiguity of information; seeking an interpretation that is selfless and grounded in reality.

Miracles of Jesus:
Gospels: Jesus performs many miracles related to water. He turns it into wine, he walks on water, he commands the sea to be calm, and he teaches his apostles to be fishers of men, to fish them out of the water.

Symbolism: Again, my understanding of the symbolism should be clear by now. Jesus as the voice of selflessness commands authority over the waters of ambiguity. He saves us from its depths. He shows the correct way to view the self and this leads to interpreting things in a way that leads to the reality of the self. The sad thing is that Christianity for example, has inverted this selfless interpretation, and in fact makes the self central to its interpretation. It makes being eternally alive by restraining/escaping the self and its value into death, and an eternal self that is bound by reality to die into life. But thanks to his sacrifice and thanks to reality judging and plaguing the selfish interpretation that are detached from reality, we can be saved. We can rise out of the water and escape the flood.

Dragon's flood:
Revelation 12: here we see the woman giving birth, and being persecuted by the dragon when he spews a river or flood to drown her.

Symbolism: In my understanding of biblical symbolism, as Ive mentioned the woman (Eve) represents imagination, creativity, symbolic and abstract thought. She interprets reality and information to find selflessness. Her antithesis is Babylon the Great; imagination etc, corrupted o interpret a reality that serves the self, but fails. The dragon (self, individually or regarding humanity) is an escalation of self service in the end times, a continuation of the same selfishness of the serpent, devil, and Satan. The woman struggles to give birth to a child of God in a time dominated by self interest. When Eve was originally corrupted in Eden by the self, this was her punishment. That her labor would be painful. But like Jesus's virgin birth, her child is not corrupted by Babylon and self interest, and this angers the dragon (self escalated in end times), and he tries to drown her with a river or flood of new ambiguity or misinformation. This aligns with the water symbolism. But she escapes, to the wilderness, and the child ascends to heaven (wisdom).

The merchants of Babylon:
Revelation 18:16 "And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate."
Symbolism: Here we see the merchants who ply their trade by sea, lament Babylon the Great's fall. They are those who sail the sea of information and trade its selfish interpretation. They gain literal wealth, are prominent figures in Babylon. They stand on pulpits, gather tithes, amass wealth, amass status while selling us an interpretation that feels good because it serves the self. God said we would surely die, but the serpent said we would be like god if we enthrone the self. These merchants sell us the throne, and we buy it eagerly, and build Babylon. But reality judges her lies. I'm sure in your minds eye you can see them; on pulpits, on street corners, in fancy robes, the merchants of our plagues.

No more sea:
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Symbolism: Its hard to imagine a literal future earth where there is no more sea. But in this symbolic lens it makes perfect sense. After the fall of self and Babylon, humanity may enter a new age where there is no more ambiguity to interpret to serve the self. The dragon (self) has been cast out of heaven (wisdom) and the Babylonian structures of self worship has collapsed. There is no more sea to drown in, to trade lies on. The woman (imagination, abstract though) is purified from selfish interpretations. We live closely to reality, and value selflessness.

Lets end with a psalm:

Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious.
Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.
Come and see the works of God: he is terrible in his doing toward the children of men.
He turned the sea into dry land: they went through the flood on foot: there did we rejoice in him.
He ruleth by his power for ever; his eyes behold the nations: let not the rebellious exalt themselves. Selah.
O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard:
Which holdeth our soul in life, and suffereth not our feet to be moved.
For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.
Thou broughtest us into the net; thou laidst affliction upon our loins.

May reality judge Babylon, and may we escape her plagues.

That's all I want to say on this forum. We all decide how to interpret ambiguity. We see religion and magical thinking, and secular detachment from reality cling to the grey areas and borders of our understanding and perception, because its the only place a lie can thrive. We try to ignore the plagues of our beliefs because our beliefs create comfort for a self that yearns to be significant and permanent. Ask yourself why posts like this feel wrong. Because it strays from what is real, or because it accuses our lie about the self? We are choosing. I'm not saying this because I have escaped the self. My life has and is shaped by self importance. There's a difference between seeing the path and walking it. I'm not saying these things from myself. I want to be eternal, i want to be significant and popular, or to find resonance with others. This post judges me as well. Reality judges the lie.

 

[Thomas]

I guess ill just finish what I feel like saying about Babylon the Great. The point of this second and final part is to show a symbolic thread in the Bible regarding this symbolic figure. It starts in Genesis and moves through the text up to Revelation. I know the thread and coherence may be only in my own mind.

That in itself does not in itself invalidate your reading. Where it can go off the rails is assuming that is the intended reading.

I know a non-supernatural stance turns this not into divine authorship, but into evidence of the authors of the Bible struggling with ambiguity of information in regards the struggle between self and selflessness. But it is still fascinating to me.

Yes, it's a fascinating viewpoint, but it is most definitely yours, and most definitely not theirs.

To imply the 'supernatural' was not fundamental to Ancient Thought is, at first glance, wrong.

The Ancient World – in this instance the ancient Near East – did not have a word that resembles "supernatural" as we understand it today, the dichotomous concept was not in their world-view. The term emerges from 3rd century Neoplatonism in dialogue with Christian theology – it's not there in Scripture.

In Antiquity, the term 'nature' had a broad range of meaning and use, and could include that which we now regard as 'the supernatural'. The Ancient Near East was not as removed from the totality of nature as we are. They might not have a full understanding of quantum flux modulation, but they had a pretty sound idea about humanity's place in the scheme of things.

In the 12th century, theologians began exploring 'causes beyond nature', questioning how certain phenomena could be attributed solely to God. Thomas Aquinas went further, speaking of "above nature", "beyond nature" and "against nature". In doing so, he sharpened the Roman Catholic distinction between 'nature and grace' way more than the early Church Fathers had ever done, and in such a way that is opposed by Orthodox theologians today (much as they admire his clarify of thought in other areas).

The Palamite Controversy in 14th century Orthodoxy was their own 'nature v grace' debate (in their term 'essence v energies').

Although the phrase "supra naturam" came into use in the 4th century, it was not until the 13th that Aquinas used the term "supernaturalis", even then, it was the early modern era before it became more popularly used.

It seems to me you're applying post-modern techniques to Ancient Texts, which is not wrong, as I have said, but it does err if it assumes that was the intended meaning behind the texts.

... resulting in magical and supernatural thinking detached from reality ...

That's your opinion of the magical and the supernatural, it's not a given, or proven.

... but I feel the tie to religion is justified, since religion is the most prominent proponent of a self that is more, eternal and cosmically significant when reality is far from that.

It is in a broad sense, but it's not when it assumes that this aspect defines the entirety of religion as such.

I'd say it's more accurate when applied to certain ideologies – religious, political, racial, and so on.

But surely, in all history, the most prominent proponent of a self is that marketed globally by materialist consumerism – the affluent West has completely caved into it, the whole world is subject to it, and even systems like Communist China are subject to it – the desire for fashion, consumer goods, cars, etc.

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We are Babylon – I'm not disputing that – tragically, even those who use the term pejoratively are nevertheless slave to it. In your words, we've all caught the disease, and because we suffer the disease there are no real desire, no hunger or thirst for the cure, which we all know, but which we would rather wait for Babylon to come up with a fix.

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My take on your water symbolism:
"Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks from the water that I shall give him will most definitely never thirst, throughout the age; rather the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain springing up to the life of the Age" (John 4:13-14).

In John's words, we are in thrall to the Archon of this Cosmos, the Father of Addictions, and the addict knows that enough is never enough, there is always the desire, the want, the need of more.

That is one tough cycle to break. And in this Cosmos, it's a cross to be carried.