Maybe the crucifixion was not a sacrifice

I'll say what I do see in the New Testament, applied to Jesus. The Passover lamb, which is not the owners giving up anything. A sheep being led to slaughter, which is not the owners giving up anything. In both cases, even if the lamb suffers, that is not the point. The scapegoat, which carries the sins on its back, not to punish it but for it to carry them away. Even if it suffers, that is not the point. Jesus pays a ransom. A ransom is not a debt, and no one suffers. It's to buy freedom for people captured by other nations.
 
Last edited:
To explain what is behind this, I've wondered sometimes how the crucifixion is a sacrifice and how it helps save us, and I've seen others wondering about that too. This time I started searching in the NT, and I didn't find anything about the crucifixion being a sacrifice in the sense of giving up something, or as agreeing to suffer as a payment or punishment. Only in the ways that I said in my previous post.
 
Longfellow said:
possibly a few verses in Hebrews.
Click to expand...
They would count, surely? Paul was the first Christian writer, before the gospels. Granted that Hebrews seems not to have been penned by Paul himself, but issuing from the Pauline school.

Longfellow said:
but not as giving up something.
Click to expand...
Jesus gave up his life. In actuality, as a suffering human being?

Longfellow said:
The Passover lamb, which is not the owners giving up anything. A sheep being led to slaughter, which is not the owners giving up anything. In both cases, even if the lamb suffers, that is not the point.
Click to expand...
The lamb or sheep was a valuable animal from the herd. It was a material possession. It was currency. The killing was not about causing suffering to the animal; it was about giving a valued possession to God. The concept of sacrifice had become corrupted to mean just blood on the altar, and the sacrifice of Christ was to restore the true meaning of sacrifice, and the last blood sacrifice, replacing blood with bread and wine at the last supper.

Longfellow said:
Jesus pays a ransom. A ransom is not a debt, and no one suffers. It's to buy freedom for people captured by other nations.
Click to expand...
Didn't Jesus suffer?

Jesus said:
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

It is a spiritual mystery that perhaps cannot be directly unravelled by material logic. It is tied up with Christ becoming the new Adam, sinless and innocent.

There are things that words just cannot say and have to be shown in symbols. The lifting up of Christ on the cross, suspended between earth and heaven, is all part of the symbolism of the crucifixion. There are libraries of words around the mystery of the crucifixion, imo.
 
Last edited:
Longfellow said:
If I don't think that the crucifixion is about sacrifice, then what do I think it's about? Maybe it's about what he says it's about while it's happening: Psalm 22.
Click to expand...
Can you be more specific?

The final sacrifice was feeling that he had been forsaken by God. Though he had not. It made him fully human in his pain, and able to bear the pain of every human. He went through it all.
 
Last edited:
RJM said:
The lamb or sheep was a valuable animal from the herd. It was a material possession. It was currency. The killing was not about causing suffering to the animal; it was about giving a valued possession to God.
Click to expand...
The Passover lamb and the lamb led to slaughter were not given to God. They were eaten or sold by the owners.
 
Longfellow said:
Did you read Psalm 22?
Click to expand...
Yes. Christ only spoke the first line. Be more specific as to your meaning and direction please? The psalm can mean a lot of different things at different times to different people., imo

Longfellow said:
The Passover lamb and the lamb led to slaughter were not given to God. They were eaten or sold by the owners.
Click to expand...
Yes. The passover lamb was a thanksgiving feast. Not actually a sacrifice.

The true sacrifice was a holocaust wholly consumed by the fire and not eaten by anyone.
 
RJM said:
Yes. Christ only spoke the first line. Be more specific as to your meaning and direction please? The psalm can mean a lot of different things at different times to different people., imo
Click to expand...
I'm saying that maybe Jesus was telling us that his crucifixion, maybe even his whole life, death and exaltation are about Psalm 22. It's for anyone who thinks that might be true to read Psalm 22 and to think for themselves about what it means.
 
Longfellow said:
I'm saying that maybe Jesus was telling us that his crucifixion, maybe his whole life, death and exaltation are about Psalm 22. It's for everyone to read Psalm 22 and to think for themselves about what it means.
Click to expand...
It's just your usual diversion and obstrufacation, imo. You never seem to have the conviction to actually say what you keep alluding to. Why should everybody have to try to decipher you? Why can't you just just post plain words? You give me a headache is all ... lol
 
RJM said:
It's just your usual diversion and obstrufacation, imo. You never seem to have the conviction to actually say what you keep alluding to. Why should everybody have to try to decipher you? Why can't you just just post plain words? You give me a headache is all ... lol
Click to expand...
This is what riles me, that people insist on thinking that there is some hidden agenda behind what I'm saying and ignore what I'm actually saying. This is not a setup for me to say what I think about Psalm 22. If you see any possibility that Jesus could have told us from the cross what the resurrection is about, then read Psalm 22 and see what you think it means that the crucifixion is about. If not, then don't bother me asking what I think it means.
 
Longfellow said:
This is what riles me, that people insist on thinking that there is some hidden agenda behind what I'm saying and ignore what I'm actually saying.
Click to expand...
Oh, it riles you that everybody doesn't automatically understand your mixed up thinking?

Longfellow said:
If not, then don't bother me asking what I think it means.
Click to expand...
You're a strange fellow, imo. Anyway -- as far as I'm concerned it's impossible to have a proper conversation with you and no longer worth the effort
 
OK ... let's go through this.
Longfellow said:
I can't find anything in the New Testament that says or even implies that the crucifixion of Jesus was a sacrifice, except possibly a few verses in Hebrews.
Click to expand...
As I said, there's ample evidence there. I'll give you a start: 1 Corinthians 5:7 "For Christ our pasch is sacrificed for us"

Longfellow said:
This time I started searching in the NT, and I didn't find anything about the crucifixion being a sacrifice in the sense of giving up something, or as agreeing to suffer as a payment or punishment. Only in the ways that I said in my previous post.
Click to expand...
This leads me to think you haven't actually searched at all. Have you heard of "the Agony in the Garden"?

Longfellow said:
If I don't think that the crucifixion is about sacrifice, then what do I think it's about? Maybe it's about what he says it's about while it's happening: Psalm 22.
Click to expand...
I fear your grasp of Psalm 22 might be as nebulous as your grasp of the New Testament.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top