Make Love Not War - Tolstoy Law of Love

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Star!

Isa. ii. 4. "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." 

Indeed! This is echoed in Micah 4:3,
"And they shall hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning knives. Not shall lift up a nation against a nation a sword. And not they shall learn (any) more war."

-Yet, this is refuted in Joel 4:10,
"Beat your plowshares to swords, and your pruning hooks to spears. The weak let say mighty am I. Hasten and come all (you) nations all around and gather yourselves to there. Bring down, Oh (G-D), Your mighty ones. Let be aroused and come up the nations to the valley of Jehosephat. For there I will sit to judge all the nations all around."

Both excerpts from the Interlinear Bible, directly translated into English from the Hebrew texts (included). So, I stand by my position as stated earlier about dichotomy. Of course, it has been a long time since I looked into these, it would help to put each into proper context before drawing full conclusions, including the verse from Isaiah. I am full aware the UN uses the Isaiah verse as a motto on a monument outside the building in New York, as I am also aware people frequently quote verses out of context to suit their personal agendas.

And since, in a habit of expanding mutual interaction between faiths, I tend to look beyond the Bible alone for confirmation in my understanding of wisdom, I wish to end this for tonight with a quote from Sun-tzu, whose seminal work is still used in the US military academies (you might call it "war 101"):

"If it is not advantageous, do not move. If objectives cannot be attained, do not employ the army. Unless endangered, do not engage in warfare. The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger. The general cannot engage in battle because of personal frustration. When it is advantageous, move; when not advantageous, stop. Anger can revert to happiness, annoyance can revert to joy, but a vanquished state cannot be revived, the dead cannot be brought back to life.
"Thus, the unenlightened ruler is cautious about it, the good general respectful of it. This is the Tao for bringing security to the state and preserving the army intact." -The Art of War, Sun-tzu

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Lunamoth!

Even in Revelations two governments are alluded to, if I remember correctly, one based in greed and the other in justice. I also remember which one prevailed.

Ummm, yes, but...the two do not co-exist if I remember correctly. The one is overthrown forcibly, by a heavenly army, ushering in a new era where Star's quote from Isaiah more properly applies. At least, that is my understanding of the prophecy as we have it today coming from John.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

this is true. a one world religious, political and economic system is what we would like to think will work, however I see great deception and a false sense of peace in this...What I think we will see is authority given to 'states', but the people themselves will not be protected by the laws passed. Economics is always first, then political and the religions will give there power to the first and the second.
We have been warned that these things must come to pass.
I don't expect a lot of people to see this as it is happening, because we are in the middle of the process right now and many people are oblivious.
(1Thessalonians 5:2,3)

Yes, I know people are clamoring for peace, and they believe it will come about by bringing all under one fold. I too, see the danger in accord with prophecy. On the one hand, we need to co-exist peacefully, and a way must be found. I believe it will when the millenial reign is ushered in. In the meantime, I promote peaceful interaction, tolerance, without surrender. I tolerate others as long as I am being tolerated. When my "space" is invaded, I will defend it (culture, religion, society, family, property, etc). Live and let live, so to speak, meaning if we can get along without stepping on each other's toes, great! If not, go your way and I'll go mine. If that is not acceptable, meaning you wish to force me into your pigeon-hole, you will draw back stubs! (please understand, this is not aimed at you personally Bandit, it is me expressing my philosophy in general terms.) I spend a great deal of effort understanding where others are coming from because they too are creations of God, and have their place in this world in accord with His designs. If He made us to be culturally different from each other, I have no problem accepting that, and I make room in my understanding for the wisdom in the many cultures of God's magnificent creation called humanity.

Each of us is held accountable for his/her actions in accord with their understanding. From those who understand more, more is required. From those who are ignorant (in factual truth), their faults are held to a lesser requirement. Even so, in my travels I have learned that every major faith has a wisdom foundation, and that foundation equates very closely with the teachings of Jesus. Who copied who is irrelevent. Whether Jesus is or not divine is irrelevent. Doing what the wisdom paths teach is what is relevent, that is what we all will be judged on, and that is what will earn us entrance to God's presence. How we relate to other humans is what will matter. How we take care of the blessings and gifts God has granted us will matter. How we clothe the naked, feed the hungry, care for the sick, champion the oppressed, tend the garden, these are things that matter in accord with each of our individual gifts. Some are called to be teachers, some are called to be healers, some are called to be ministers or counsellors, some are called to be farmers and husbandmen, some are called to be parents, some are called to be managers, some are called to be chief cooks and bottle washers, and some are called to defend us. Life is too complex to give trite answers. Great and many are the mysteries of God. And I kinda like it that way.

 

[juantoo3]

I could accept the UN as a world government
One planet, one people, one heart.

Sounds great, until you find out that heart is of your worst enemy.

 

[lunamoth]

Kindest Regards, Lunamoth!
Ummm, yes, but...the two do not co-exist if I remember correctly. The one is overthrown forcibly, by a heavenly army, ushering in a new era where Star's quote from Isaiah more properly applies. At least, that is my understanding of the prophecy as we have it today coming from John.

Dear Juantoo3,

I'm afraid you have not heard me and it's partly my fault for getting sidetracked by the One-World Government idea. I did not originally say we need to have some kind of global parliment or republic, but that we must somehow find a way to distribute the wealth of the world more equitably and work for social justice. We need to address the reasons people go to war. Even power-hungry dictators would not be able to intimidate and coerce if their people are not behind them to at least some extent. Usually those people who support a cruel regime are doing do because they are the ones benefiting from the economic injustice or would be oppressed if they did not. Notice that I am not saying sanctions sanctions sanctions as such usually hurt the people while leaving the problematic government intact.

It does not necessarily mean all the nations will somehow be merged into one fold, as you say. I happen to think that some form of world governance is inevitable and we should think about it now, all of us, so that it has a better chance of reflecting principles of peace and justice, rather than being a pawn of commercial interests. Can we avoid disasterous mistakes as the future unfolds? Maybe, maybe not. It is complex, it's certainly bigger than I can understand, but still I have free will to make choices that reflect the world I want to live in, rather than the world I currently live in, or the world some think we are doomed to live in.

Finally, I also did not say I advocate dismantling our armies or avoiding global conflicts where our military strength has the chance to bring peace. Tolstoy did, but I do not (at least not today ). You said it well and I fully agree:

How we relate to other humans is what will matter. How we take care of the blessings and gifts God has granted us will matter. How we clothe the naked, feed the hungry, care for the sick, champion the oppressed, tend the garden, these are things that matter in accord with each of our individual gifts.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Lunamoth!

I appreciate the information you posted aabout the concept of Just War. I've heard the term bandied about and never knew all the specific criteria.

Actually, the subject truly deserves fleshing out. The criteria I presented are the briefest possible, and there is a great deal of nuance "between the lines" that deserves to be brought to light.

I do hold out hope for the day when we can put our weapons aside.

I look for that day as well, I am not certain it is in the power of humanity to bring it about. Even looking at evolution, war is a by-product of the hunt, and it dates to the first time a single celled creature ate another. Even considering tribal warfare (which could possibly be argued as you earlier implied about population control, but that quickly becomes a dicey subject), such was conducted not to obliterate or even subdue an enemy, it was waged as an expression of prowess and power, it was "great medicine" to touch an enemy, even with a stick (coup stick). Big joo-joo! So there is that element of magic when considering such warfare. Some tribal cultures would even breathe in the last breath of a dying victim to absorb his "medicine."

1. I believe I said above that military intervention is sometimes needed to stop violence, primarily violence between nations or large groups. Intervention is different than initiating a war and the distinction is going to be fuzzy due to different points of view.

OK, this quickly degenerates into politics, which I want desperately to avoid. All wars are defensive, just ask both sides. It all depends on who wins, they are the ones who get to write the history.

2. Being a pacifist (and I am not sure I qualify for this label) does not mean inaction and hand-wringing. It might mean putting your life on the line to go stand with those being oppressed or violated. It might mean going to war but not taking up arms, but a medical bag instead. It might mean risking the scorn of your neighbors or even jail to stand by your beliefs. It does not mean denigrating our service men and women or undermining their efforts.

VERY GOOD!!! I applaud you! Yes, this is true pacifism, with which I have absolutely no argument. But in truth, how many "pacifists" do you know that actually get out and do something instead of just running their mouths and whining? A very small percentage, I'll bet!

3. I don't have power over armies (thank God, and God be with those who do). I can choose whether or not to support a military action taken by my government based on the best of my understanding of the situation. I might choose to enlist myself, depending on the situation. I might choose to serve in a different manner (medic, cook) or support on the homefront. WWJD? Perhaps I also shouldn't presume since He did not speak directly about nation-nation combat, but to me it is a safe bet that He would intervene against injustice. I can protest (beforehand) against wars I do not think to be justified. How will I know for sure, given the complexities of the world and the lack of information most of us have? I won't. The road to perdition may be paved with good intentions but for now that is all I have, except of course my faith in God.

All you can do in such a case is to follow your heart where God leads you. But again, I stress action, "doing." Belief in any philosophy is not sufficient. One must put their money where their mouth is. I think in the end, a lot of what we think is important will no longer matter. Yet, in the here and now, matters of importance demand our attention. Since our life, time and energies are limited, we have to focus our efforts where God leads us.

4. About the "two-edged sword" of a "one-world government," oh what a can of worms of a discussion that is. I'm going to go look at the old thread on this and see if it's worth bringing up again. I'd take the position that some form of future world governance is not only likely and necessary,

Yes, according to prophecy it will come to pass in accord with the will or design of God.

but also considered righteous in the Bible.

Expressly no, in accord with the same prophecy.

Having said this, it does not mean that there must be a single government and single economy, but more likely that there will be better agreements and cooperation between nations, far short of a World Republic.

Ummm, see, there is a whole lot to be considered, of which I do not have time. Lord Acton's quote will have to serve me here: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Power intoxicates and is addicting. Those on a power trip seek more. I cannot speak with any certainty, but I feel there are powers that be in this world that are moving to consolidate for the express goal of absolute power. What Star once called negative energy. It must be, but its purpose is brief and specific, and ushers in the new era. Of course, there are those that teach that according to scripture we will be in spirit bodies for that era, which implies we will destroy ourselves (our physical state) despite our "best" efforts. I like to think some remnant of humanity will pass through the fire into the millenial era in the physical. It remains to be seen, it is in God's hands.

I do not believe war has to be the eternal lot for mankind.

If the prophecies pertaining to the millenial rule hold true, and I do not doubt, there will be a time of unrestrained peace. This is the time of Isaiah 11, of which Star's quote of Isaiah 2 leads into:
(beginning verse 6, Interlinear: )
"And shall stay the wolf with the lamb; and the leopard with the kid shall lie; and the calf and the lion cub and the fatling together; and a boy little leads them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; together shall lie their young; and the lion like the ox shall eat straw. And shall play a suckling over the hole of the snake; and on the den of the viper, a weaned child his hand shall put. Not they do evil and not they destroy in all mountain My holy; for shall be full the earth of knowing J-----h* as the waters the sea cover. And it will be in day that, the root of Jesse (it is) that stands as a banner of peoples; to Him nations shall seek; and shall be His resting place glory." (*God, sacred name)

This passage continues, and I have always found it one of the most beautiful promises God makes to us. Why would I want to rapture away from this promise? (that is another subject, I digress, but it never ceases to amaze me!) No, I rather think the whole rapture deal is another portion of the deception designed to bring people into the one-world fold when things don't go down as predicted in that tradition. God has alway tried His gold in the fire, and separated His silver from the dross. This implies passing through the fire, not going around it. Just as Daniel's buddies in the furnace, God will protect His own.

So, where were we? Oh yes, war, and whether or not it will always be with humanity. Well, I hold out hope in accord with my tradition that it will not always be. And it is in my power to not cause war unnecessarily in the here and now. I can choose to make peace, and within my circle of influence I try to. But I am also at the ready if called, like the servant who watches faithfully for the thief in the night.

Hope this helps. It did me, I haven't looked at this in a long time. Thanks for the blessing, sis! I really needed it!

 

[juantoo3]

Oh boy! You've got me working overtime today, and it's my day off. I won't have this luxury tomorrow.

we must somehow find a way to distribute the wealth of the world more equitably and work for social justice. We need to address the reasons people go to war.

OK, I don't have all of the answers. You might want to check out those links I sent you, but in truth I think you'll have to look pretty hard to find anything that addresses what you are looking for. And of course, I am a business major, versed in Ayn Rand, so I have a certain bias that you probably don't want to hear, and that's OK. Somebody has to keep me in check, I really don't mind.

So, if you find a workable and practical solution that doesn't bankrupt nations (financially or morally), fill me in.

Even power-hungry dictators would not be able to intimidate and coerce if their people are not behind them to at least some extent. Usually those people who support a cruel regime are doing do because they are the ones benefiting from the economic injustice or would be oppressed if they did not. Notice that I am not saying sanctions sanctions sanctions as such usually hurt the people while leaving the problematic government intact.

Yeah, well...this gets into a whole lot of generalities that may or may not apply to specific situations. Don't forget cultural context, things like patriotism and religion. Some people don't care who is in charge as long as they get their share, at least until...ooops, too late!

It does not necessarily mean all the nations will somehow be merged into one fold, as you say.

Luna, I know you are a very intelligent, thoughtful and faithful person. Have you ever read the book of Revelations? I know some say it is too hard to understand, but I think its name is revealing. (Oh, that turned into a pun! Unintended, but pretty good I think!) Whether the merger is formal or informal is irrelevent. There will be a prime mover and ten cronies. And that's just the description of the governmental system. The religious system is simple, believe or die. The economic system is not described other than to say things are gonna get a bit dicey if you do not toe the party line. But no matter how dire the prediction is, there is the promise that God will look out for His own. If you think the holocaust was something terrible, hang around for this. And just when everybody thinks all is well, meaning they have the dissenters right where they want them, there will be a series of plagues that make what happened in Exodus look tame. A just like pharoah, the armies will amass and gather in a valley where "the blood will flow to the depths of the horse's bridles."

Either one believes the prophecies, or one doesn't. There is no way to prove them until they come to pass.

Forgive me if that came out worse than I intended. If I may be allowed a little flake and bake; mercury is in retrograde. What does that mean? I haven't got a clue, but it supposedly rules my zodiac sign...

I happen to think that some form of world governance is inevitable (it is inevitable -jt3) and we should think about it now, all of us, so that it has a better chance of reflecting principles of peace and justice, rather than being a pawn of commercial interests. Can we avoid disasterous mistakes as the future unfolds? Maybe, maybe not. It is complex, it's certainly bigger than I can understand, but still I have free will to make choices that reflect the world I want to live in, rather than the world I currently live in, or the world some think we are doomed to live in.

Something tells me that as "little people," we can think about it all day long for the rest of our lives and it will not matter one whit. It is out of our reach. All we can hope for is to see it as it really is, and not what it presents itself to be. It will not be ushered in forcibly, people will be seduced into following the one-world government and all it represents. Force will only be used on dissenters, which for practical purposes is the people of the book who are not deceived.

Finally, I also did not say I advocate dismantling our armies or avoiding global conflicts where our military strength has the chance to bring peace.

I didn't think you did. Not to worry, even the one-world government will have its military. Whether composed of a mix of member nations, or a specific corps dedicated to it, or both, is irrelevent. There will be a military branch to insure compliance among member states, and to insure individual compliance. (hint: police are a form of military)

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear juantoo3

You make a good point about the Joel prophecy but understanding prophecy, messages from the Holy Spirit and their interpretation is an art within itself which takes many years dedicated training.

I can say no more as I am not allowed to CR.

being love

kim xx

 

[Sacredstar]

And I feel this beautiful passage from James explains the supreme love and light of GOD messages very well.

He speaks of the wisdom that comes from man through the lack of loving understanding and the wisdom that comes from GOD.

"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all PURE; then PEACE-LOVING, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness". James 3:17-18

From the passage on Submitting Ourselves to GOD

"What causes fights and quarrels among you, Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God." James 4:1-2

Thank you to everyone that as contributed to this thread I feel raised with evenmore clarity and confirmation.


being love

kim xx

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Star!

You make a good point about the Joel prophecy but understanding prophecy, messages from the Holy Spirit and their interpretation is an art within itself which takes many years dedicated training.

I can say no more as I am not allowed to CR.

That is because there is a HUGE difference between trying to understand prophecy already in the Bible and prophesying oneself. Especially when those personal prophecies are pretty antagonistic. If prophecy is to be one of my gifts, then that will be between me and God (and in fact it has been and is). But like the priest who stood on the corner shouting out his prayers and blessing passers-by making a show of his religion, an awful lot of what I have seen you post seems self-serving. I really don't think God works that way.

I do not see everything. I do not know everything. I do not pretend to know everything. I can be mistaken. But I thank the Good Lord for the sound mind and spirit He has blessed me with. Yes, I should use these gifts to help others, and I do. But that is the true art, helping others without imposing on others, or trying to forcefeed one's personal views. No matter how much you want to help any individual, you cannot force them to grow. All you can do is plant the seed, maybe water it and fertilize it, pull a few weeds now and then, and pray for the best. But ALL of the growing is in God's hands, and that is a crucial lesson quickly forgotten or overlooked by way too many teachers. A teacher must reach out to a pupil on their level, and gradually bring them up to the teacher's level, at the pupil's pace. A teacher cannot be impatient. But the most important thing for a teacher to understand, is that they (specifically) are held to a much higher level of accountability. If a teacher teaches incorrectly in God's eyes, there is not only hell to pay, but a more severe level of hell to pay. It is a very weighty gift to be called to teach, and it is a gift I have run away from for a long time. Even so, it really raises my hackles when I see teachers teaching rubbish that is clearly not Biblical, or even wise.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards again Star!

"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all PURE; then PEACE-LOVING, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness". James 3:17-18

From the passage on Submitting Ourselves to GOD

"What causes fights and quarrels among you, Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God." James 4:1-2

When it comes to discussion of wisdom, my first and most lasting lesson came from Solomon, who said (chapter 2 Proverbs): "Seek wisdom as for hidden treasure." The same guy (or at least collected in the same series of wisdom books and poetry) in Ecclesiastes told us that knowledge is a heavy burden, and of the making of many books there is no end, so, let us hear the sum of the matter: "Love God, and keep His commandments." End of story. Everything else is vanity!

You see, the funny thing about verse wars, is that people can quote verses at each other all day long, especially if they are willing to take verses out of context. The devil can quote scripture too.

What about applying scripture instead of quoting it at each other?

People are prone, in my experience, to false dichotomies. Either/or thinking. In order for me to be right, you must be wrong. And the reality is nothing at all like that. Wisdom is a middle ground, it is not extreme right or left. What I am seeing you attempt to promote is that people who have the intestinal fortitude to serve their country and countrymen and women are not somehow worthy of God's presence. Quite the contrary, because these people are willing to sacrifice themselves (to lay down their lives for their friends as it were), they are entitled to a blessing you will never understand. I do not say this harshly, I say it most lovingly but insistently.

You see war as murder, I see it as protection. Fact is, we are both right. And both sides are equally just in their due season in the eyes of God.

One of the things I wanted to put in my initial post has to do with a Native American tradition. In the western mind, death is something to fear, to be avoided. But death is a natural part of life. If life is for learning, death is graduation. Death means I am going home to be with my Father. I do not fear death. I better correct myself, yeah, I get butterflies in my stomach thinking about this subject, but I do not fear death like I did as a child. The Native American went onto the battlefield thinking "this is a good day to die." This day, today, is just as good of a day to die as any other, IF you are right with God! I do not look to hurry death, I enjoy my sojourn here in this existence. But I do not fear the day when I am called home. Do I miss those I love who have gone before me? Of course, but that grief is selfish, I miss them. And at the same time, I am happy for them, they have gone to be with the Father! I look forward to the day when we will be together again!

Yes, peace is a very important thing to promote. Peaceful coexistence is the human ideal in this realm. And we are to try, sincerely.

But the cards are stacked against us from the beginning. War has always been. And peace at the cost of surrender of all that is of value to you, is not a peace worth having. At first glance, "one people" makes sense. We are all humans, blessed creations of divine Providence. "One mind" and "one heart" however, gets a bit dicey. Whose mind and whose heart shall serve as the model for the one? Yours? Mine? Are you willing to surrender your all, everything that is you, just so you can get a little peace now and then? That is what is coming, and a true prophet knows it. Which is why you scare me Star. I cannot help but think, the god you listen to, is not the Heavenly Father Creator.

PS, I do not think you are evil. I think you are misguided. I still love you.

 

[lunamoth]

Dear Juantoo3,

Thank you for your posts to me, I greatly appreciate the time you've taken to reply so thoughtfully. I've pretty much exhausted what I have to say for now, short of getting into Christian eschatology which probably belongs in a different section of the forum anyway.

We agree on many things. I think our differences are primaily a matter of emphasis. I agree that Bible passages are easily taken out of context (although I don't really see much of that on CR--the people here really know their stuff) and, worse, can be used to bludgeon each other. I mean, no matter how sharp our own words can be, how much harsher is it when we imply that the condemnation comes from God? I hope I have not been guilty of using the Word in this way and if I have offended you or anyone else I apologize.

Peace,
lunamoth

 

[juantoo3]

bump for exposure