Not Liberal Enough To Be A Baha'i Member?

[Silverbackman]

I'm sort of a Baha'i in the sense I believe in all the prophets of the MAJOR world religions (NOT the minor dead religions like odinism or greek mythology) but I am exactly on the politcal spectrum it seems of the stand Baha'i member. It seems Baha'i is a religion where you have to be pretty liberal but I classify myself as a moderate.

I am not for a one world government, as Baha'i members believe in. I am for union of particular regions, such as Europe or comes together as a democratic nation, or South Asia come together as one nation and that is the furthest it should go. An nation should be no larger than 10 million sq kilometers. So in other words I for maybe 10 world countries, but not one world country. I believe in borders (less borders, but not no borders), language, and culture.

I am also not completly for women rights 100%. I don't believe they should be in the military and I do believe they should pursue more feminine roles as in the major religions, and do recognize that their is a difference between males and females. I am not against women's rights or anything, I just think there should be a difference in men and women roles.

Other than that I would say I do fit in the Baha'i category (and also think the sikh prophet should be considered on of the main 10 prophets). But I don't completly, so does that mean I cannot be a Baha'i member?

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, Silver!

It is a mistake to characterize the Baha'i Faith as either "liberal" or "conservative!" There are some aspects and teachings that can be termed liberal, but there are others that are quite conservative. So IOV we're the inegration of the best of both, without the defects of each!

Also, the key question as to Baha'i membership is whether or not one accepts Baha'u'llah as being Who He says He is, namely God's Messenger for this Day! If one accepts this, one is a Baha'i (and should doubtless enroll); if not, then one isn't.

Please note that there is no requirement for everyone to believe exactly the same thing about various social issues. Each person is free to follow his or her own conscience on matters not specifically revealed in the Baha'i scriptures. What is not forbidden is proclaiming one's opinion to be The Truth and expecting others to obey it.

So while there is consensus among Baha'is on the generalities of many issues, there are indeed individual nuances and distinctions on many of them....

And it's also true that we tend to grow into this consensus more or less automatically as we learn more about the Faith and its teachngs and come to greater overall understandings of life and those things which enhance it.

Many regards,

Bruce

 

[Silverbackman]

Yea but it seems to be a very big deal in baha'i Faith about one world government. If you go to many baha'i sources it says that uniting the world under a one world government is very important. Even the Baha'i website says that this is one of the most important things, but I am against a one world government, the most important issue it seems about Baha'i faith. Also another big thing is the gender equality, but because I am against women being allowed in the front lines of war I basicly aganst another big aspect of Bahai's faith. So is it really possible to be a member of Baha'i Faith and still have those particular beliefs (which seem very important in Baha'i Faith).

Also, what is Baha'i's stance on the issue on science. I kinda believe in every major belief, like the 10 biggest religions and the science as well. I do believe to a certain extent in evolution but I also believe in God and the many religions. What is the stance on the issue to Baha'i members?

 

[9Harmony]

Yea but it seems to be a very big deal in baha'i Faith about one world government. If you go to many baha'i sources it says that uniting the world under a one world government is very important. Even the Baha'i website says that this is one of the most important things, but I am against a one world government, the most important issue it seems about Baha'i faith. Also another big thing is the gender equality, but because I am against women being allowed in the front lines of war I basicly aganst another big aspect of Bahai's faith. So is it really possible to be a member of Baha'i Faith and still have those particular beliefs (which seem very important in Baha'i Faith).

Also, what is Baha'i's stance on the issue on science. I kinda believe in every major belief, like the 10 biggest religions and the science as well. I do believe to a certain extent in evolution but I also believe in God and the many religions. What is the stance on the issue to Baha'i members?

Hi Silverbackman,

The issue of a one World Government is not so much that one government controls all. But rather that each nation should maintain it's own individual governments, but have an overseeing body made up of all nations, to protect the rights of each. We believe in unity in diversity, and that cultures should be maintained and protected. The League of Nations and the UN are attempts towards this goal, but are not quite what Baha'u'llah had in mind, but at least they are a step in the right direction.

As for science, we believe in the harmony of science and religion. Our writings state that religion without science is superstition, and science without religion is materialism. (or something to that effect). They actually compliment each other and one should not take precedence over the other.

I hope that is helpful.

Have a great day!

Loving Greetings, Amy

 

[9Harmony]

Also another big thing is the gender equality, but because I am against women being allowed in the front lines of war I basicly aganst another big aspect of Bahai's faith. So is it really possible to be a member of Baha'i Faith and still have those particular beliefs (which seem very important in Baha'i Faith).

Hi again,

I forgot to touch on this point.

The equality of men and women does not necessarily mean that men and women should have the same roles. Rather it refers to the complimentary nature of each to the other.

"And among the teachings of His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh is the equality of women and men. The world of humanity has two wings— one is woman and the other man. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of woman becomes equal to the world of man in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be." -Foundations of World Unity, Pages 29-30

He promulgated the adoption of the same course of education for man and woman. Daughters and sons must follow the same curriculum of study, thereby promoting unity of the sexes. When all mankind shall receive the same opportunity of education and the equality of men and women be realized, the foundations of war will be utterly destroyed. Without equality this will be impossible because all differences and distinction are conducive to discord and strife. Equality between men and women is conducive to the abolition of warfare for the reason that women will never be willing to sanction it. Mothers will not give their sons as sacrifices upon the battlefield after twenty years of anxiety and loving devotion in rearing them from infancy, no matter what cause they are called upon to defend. There is no doubt that when women obtain equality of rights, war will entirely cease among mankind.

(“The Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912”, p. 175) [36]​

So once the equality of men and women is realized, war will cease and your concern about women on the front lines will not be an issue at all.

 

[arthra]

Silverbackman:

Yea but it seems to be a very big deal in baha'i Faith about one world government. If you go to many baha'i sources it says that uniting the world under a one world government is very important. Even the Baha'i website says that this is one of the most important things, but I am against a one world government, the most important issue it seems about Baha'i faith.


My reply:

The really big issue for Baha'is "Silver" is recognizing Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God for this day, so we don't say ask everyone to believe in a world government as a condition for membership. What we teach is that according to the principles of Baha'u'llah a world parliament was suggested to the world's leaders in 1870's by Baha'u'llah to reduce armaments and the likelihood of wars....eventually a democratic world government with a parliamentary style along with a world court will be established, but we Baha'is ourselves will not establish this it will be done by the governments of the world out of their own interests..so far I think this is occurring with some set-backs now and then.


Silver:

Also another big thing is the gender equality, but because I am against women being allowed in the front lines of war I basicly aganst another big aspect of Bahai's faith.

Reply:

Not really, Baha'is are for the equality of men and women, that is they should have the same pay and opportunity that men have...and represent themselves in society. Abdul-Baha opposed the use of women in the military.

Silver:

So is it really possible to be a member of Baha'i Faith and still have those particular beliefs (which seem very important in Baha'i Faith).

Reply:

Again, and as above the key to becoming a Baha'i is accepting Baha'u'llah. we don't stress so nmuch the details of how or when world government will be established and we do not say women should be in the military.

Silver:

Also, what is Baha'i's stance on the issue on science. I kinda believe in every major belief, like the 10 biggest religions and the science as well. I do believe to a certain extent in evolution but I also believe in God and the many religions. What is the stance on the issue to Baha'i members?

Reply:

Baha'is believe man has evolved or changed his form but we have always been a separate species.... We believe there should be harmony between science and religion and are opposed to superstition and prejudice.

- Art

 

[smkolins]

Indeed in many things the apparent supposition popular in the day may have little inc common with what is called for in the Baha'i Faith. Speak of equality of men and women and one cannot help but feel a wholly Western situation in the whole discussion. And while there have been some aspects of the equality of women and men brought forth in the West it is emphatically NOT what the Baha'is view is about. Most of modern western views are essentially subtractive - to suppose there are no differences between men and women. In some ways one could imagine this being acceptable because for so long most of society and its rules were hard drawn excluding and adusing women because they were women. Leaping to the other extreme might seem reasonable in an attempt to get rid of so many things that are wrong about these lines. But as serious progress has been made such extremes are more obviously not needed.

But check how Baha'is promulgate the equality of the sexes in other countries where the western norms aren't even known, and one might find a different kind of emphasis about what equality of men and women might mean.

The same kind of thing - that what people are talking about may have little to do with what the Baha'i Faith endorses - is true of one world government. Many look at government as essentially tyranical and or beurocratic. But tyrants and beuracracies are not what is meant. Baha'is also endorse an understanding of decentralization and a balance of rights and responsabilities between the individual and government.

The most essential aspect of a one world government view is that war would eventually become unnecessary - that inequities between peoples could be addressed through negotiation and compromise among peoples. Globalization these days is mostly about businesses manuvering for advantage. And others fight the process internationally. But from a Baha'i view I would hazard the guess, in so far as individual Baha'is can speak their own mind, that both sides have a point, so to speak, and both sides are wrong.

Globalization and one world government and equality of the sexes, and so many other things, are teachings the Baha'i Faith have of which some of the words are in common usage - in part because of some progress perhaps in the very area - but in essence and practice are far far from what the Baha'is wish very much to come about.

 

[Silverbackman]

But still you have to see that there are many things in Baha'i that are a bit questionable on the liberal side. I can never be too happy in more conservative religions such as Islam or Christianity because I am not completly to the right (like the monothesitic religions view on science) or the Baha'i view on a one world government (which is very much liberal in many eyes).

And as for the women's role in Baha'i, again I am not entirely on the left in this issue. For example, I found this passage in a Baha'i website;

"The sixth principle or teaching of Bahá'u'lláh concerns the equality of man and woman. He has declared that in the estimation of God there is no distinction of sex. The one whose heart is most pure, whose deeds and service in the Cause of God are greater and nobler, is most acceptable before the divine threshold - whether male or female. In the vegetable and animal kingdoms sex exists in perfect equality and without distinction or invidious estimate."

The problem with this verse is that humans are not vegetables. In a plant world the only difference between males and females is that one produces the seeds and one fertilizes the other. In animals they have a much complex role, in higher up mammal society they are so different they have different tasks. In humans there is a vast amount of differences between men and women. There is clear distinction between the sexes and men and women behave differently than each other. For example if a women wants to stay home and take care of her kids instead of getting an education, she should be allowed to with no put-downs like people saying that "You are throwing your life away." That is an example.

Now yes, women should be payed exactly the same as men for the same job, should have the right to vote, and should have the right to the same education as man but the problem is that women do have a maternal instincts and many other that the scientific journey knows about and if she wants to live a more simple life then she should be allowed too. But yes this is equality, women have the right to choose but if propaganda tries to force women to become the highest posistion, they can get depressed (as would men under the same propaganda, which is why equality should remain nuetral).

Now I am not sure whether that made much sense, here in California it is 2:26 AM in the morning, but I hope you see what picture I am getting here.

Guess I am too neutral to commit to any one religion. I actually have my own philosophy in mind as a major world religion. It would be like Baha'i in the sense it will include all the prophets, but it would be more geared to more neutral moderate doctrine, not as restrictive as Abramic religions, but not too loose like Baha'i (by loose I mean not that absolute).

 

[Silverbackman]

Still a very interesting religion. I do believe in many of what Baha'i teaches. Perhaps I should learn about it more before taking it off "the religion to follow for life consideration list" because of the many things I agree with Baha'i about.

How do Baha'i pray and worship God? I heard that there are some prayers to recite but can't you also free pray to God about anything in Baha'i? How close is meditaion in Baha'i to Hindu or Buddhist meditation. Also, are there any local temples or places of worship in a set area? I heard there are only about 7 worldwide.

 

[smkolins]

Perhaps more of the quote would make some sense:

One of these questions concerns the rights of woman and her equality with man. In past ages it was held that woman and man were not equal--that is to say, woman was considered inferior to man, even from the standpoint of her anatomy and creation. She was considered especially inferior in intelligence, and the idea prevailed universally that it was not allowable for her to step into the arena of important affairs. In some countries man went so far as to believe and teach that woman belonged to a sphere lower than human. But in this century, which is the century of light and the revelation of mysteries, God is proving to the satisfaction of humanity that all this is ignorance and error; nay, rather, it is well established that mankind and womankind as parts of composite humanity are coequal and that no difference in estimate is allowable, for all are human. The conditions in past centuries were due to woman's lack of opportunity. She was denied the right and privilege of education and left in her undeveloped state. Naturally, she could not and did not advance. In reality, God has created all mankind, and in the estimation of God there is no distinction as to male and female. The one whose heart is pure is acceptable in His sight, be that one man or woman. God does not inquire, "Art thou woman or art thou man?" He judges human actions. If these are acceptable in the threshold of the Glorious One, man and woman will be equally recognized and rewarded.
("The Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by Abdu'l-Baha during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912", p. 133) [15]


However, as to sameness note this theme:

The world of humanity consists of two parts: male and female. Each is the complement of the other. Therefore, if one is defective, the other will necessarily be incomplete, and perfection cannot be attained. There is a right hand and a left hand in the human body, functionally equal in service and administration. If either proves defective, the defect will naturally extend to the other by involving the completeness of the whole; for accomplishment is not normal unless both are perfect. If we say one hand is deficient, we prove the inability and incapacity of the other; for single-handed there is no full accomplishment. Just as physical accomplishment is complete with two hands, so man and woman, the two parts of the social body, must be perfect. It is not natural that either should remain undeveloped; and until both are perfected, the happiness of the human world will not be realized.
("The Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by Abdu'l-Baha during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912", p. 134) [16]

Indeed:

In some respects woman is superior to man. She is more tender-hearted, more receptive, her intuition is more intense.
("Paris Talks: Addresses given by Abdu'l-Baha in Paris in 1911-1912", p. 161) [21]

And more:

In the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, women are advancing side by side with men. There is no area or instance where they will lag behind: they have equal rights with men, and will enter, in the future, into all branches of the administration of society. Such will be their elevation that, in every area of endeavour, they will occupy the highest levels in the human world. Rest thou assured. Look not upon their present state. In future, the world of womankind will shine with lustrous brilliance, for such is the will and purpose of Baha'u'llah. At the time of elections the right to vote is the inalienable right of women, and the entrance of women into all human departments is an irrefutable and incontrovertible question. No soul can retard or prevent it.
But there are certain matters, the participation in which is not worthy of women. For example, at the time when the community is taking up vigorous defensive measures against the attack of foes, the women are exempt from military engagements. It may so happen that at a given time warlike and savage tribes may furiously attack the body politic with the intention of carrying on a wholesale slaughter of its members; under such a circumstance defence is necessary, but it is the duty of men to organize and execute such defensive measures and not the women--because their hearts are tender and they cannot endure the sight of the horror of carnage, even if it is for the sake of defence. From such and similar undertakings the women are exempt.
As regards the constitution of the House of Justice, Baha'u'llah addresses the men. He says: "O ye men of the House of Justice!"
But when its members are to be elected, the right which belongs to women, so far as their voting and their voice is concerned, is indisputable. When the women attain to the ultimate degree of progress, then, according to the exigency of the time and place and their great capacity, they shall obtain extraordinary privileges. Be ye confident on these accounts. His Holiness Baha'u'llah has greatly strengthened the cause of women, and the rights and privileges of women is one of the greatest principles of Abdu'l-Baha. Rest ye assured! Ere long the days shall come when the men addressing the women, shall say: `Blessed are ye! Blessed are ye! Verily ye are worthy of every gift. Verily ye deserve to adorn your heads with the crown of everlasting glory, because in sciences and arts, in virtues and perfections ye shall become equal to man, and as regards tenderness of heart and the abundance of mercy and sympathy ye are superior'.
(From a Tablet to an individual believer--translated from the Persian, published in "Paris Talks: Addresses given by Abdu'l-Baha in Paris in 1911-1912", p. 182-84) [23]

 

[smkolins]

How do Baha'i pray and worship God? I heard that there are some prayers to recite but can't you also free pray to God about anything in Baha'i? How close is meditaion in Baha'i to Hindu or Buddhist meditation. Also, are there any local temples or places of worship in a set area? I heard there are only about 7 worldwide.

Thanks for your interest and I hope you have a good time exploring!

Prayer, meditation and fasting are all spiritual disciplines Baha'is use. There are indeed many prayers in our Scriptures! Prayers that are spoken from the heart are of the higher priority, but one may well find a prayer that says what one wants to say better than what a spur of the moment impulse might craft.

Baha'i meditation isn't quantified - the general idea is of communion and being detached from the cares of the world, but not to be unaware of the world. One might reflect on some few words from the scriptures or seek to quiet the mind in order to listen to something else.

We pray at home and in gardens, wherever our hearts are moved, as well as in local Baha'i Centers wherein prayer services are carried out. The Houses of Worship are the ones you are thinking of and eventually they will spread into local areas. There are also Shrines and Monuments which are also places of prayer and meditation.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

At the outset, please let me apologize for a gross typo in my first post to you! I said something like ~what is not forbidden is stating one's personal opinion and expecting others to follow and obey it.~ What that SHOULD have said is "What IS forbidden is stating one's personal opinion and expecting others to follow and obey it!" Considerable difference!

We're all free to have our own opinions, but we are NOT permitted to tell others we have Truth and they must follow it.

Sorry about that. :-S

[One world government] seems to be a very big deal in baha'i Faith. If you go to many baha'i sources it says that uniting the world under a one world government is very important. Even the Baha'i website says that this is one of the most important things....

As various folks have explained, this refers to something _in addition_ to existing levels of government. IOV this is only logical: as humanity and civilization have evolved and developed, we've gone through progressive stages, each encompassing a greater proportion of humanity. This succession began with the family and has since gone through stages such as clan, tribe, city-state, and now nation; and IOV world unity and harmony is simply the next step!

Please note that a world government DOES NOT mean something oppressive or dictatorial; indeed, if you examine the internal Baha'i administrative system (which is already is use world wide among Baha'is), you'll find that it is both very democratic (with elected bodies at all levels) as well as completely unific and NON-political! Our goal is love, harmony, and concord--hardly things to object to, I would suggest....

Also another big thing is the gender equality, but because I am against women being allowed in the front lines of war I basicly aganst another big aspect of Bahai's faith. So is it really possible to be a member of Baha'i Faith and still have those particular beliefs (which seem very important in Baha'i Faith).

Of course it's possible! Doubtless some Baha'is have them, too.

But you may be happy to know that I'm fully in agreement with you that women should not serve in combat! Of course, this is because I also believe that man should not serve in combat.

[Also, what is Baha'i's stance on the issue on science? I kinda believe in every major belief, like the 10 biggest religions and the science as well. I do believe to a certain extent in evolution but I also believe in God and the many religions. What is the stance on the issue to Baha'i members?

Much of this has already been answered, but I'll add my take on it, as well as a quote from the Baha'i scriptures that may interest you.

Science tells "how," whereas religion tells "Who" and "why." They thus address complimentary, and largely non-overlapping domains. Viewed properly, both are in mutual harmony, and there is no disagreement between them. Where we get into trouble is in trying to use one in the place of the other, or using either one in isolation. Science can't address morality, and religoius scriptures are not science texts. As was pointed out, science without religion is gross materialsm ("bigger and better nukes"), and religion without science is superstition and witch-burning.

And indeed, the Baha'i scriptures not only encourage and praise science, but go on to say that if a religious doctrine contradicts established scientific fact, that doctrine is simply wrong.

Many Baha'is work in the sciences (just as in other fields).

The Baha'i scriptures say this, among other things, about science and knowledge:

"[E]ven in Europe it is admitted that religion is the opponent of science, and that science is the destroyer of the foundations of religion. While the religion of God is the promoter of truth, the founder of science and knowledge, it is full of goodwill for learned men; it is the civilizer of mankind, the discoverer of the secrets of nature, and the enlightener of the horizons of the world. Consequently, how can it be said to oppose knowledge? God forbid! Nay, for God, knowledge is the most glorious gift of man and the most noble of human perfections. To oppose knowledge is ignorant, and he who detests knowledge and science is not a man, but rather an animal without intelligence. For knowledge is light, life, felicity, perfection, beauty and the means of approaching the Threshold of Unity. It is the honor and glory of the world of humanity, and the greatest bounty of God. Knowledge is identical with guidance, and ignorance is real error.

"Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties of pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose hearts are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, who have fallen into the lowest depths of ignorance and foolishness, and who have wasted their lives!"

(Some Answered Questions, page 137)
[end quote]

As to evolution, BTW, we Baha'is have no problem with the existence of evolution; and indeed, IOV religion evolves over time as well as the material world!

Do keep the questions coming, and I hope you will investigate us further! If you like, you can get free information and also find the Baha'is in your area by phoning (in the US) 1-800-22-UNITE or visiting http://www.us.bahai.org/find.asp

Good hunting!

Bruce

 

[dayaa]

hello/salam all
welcome silver
you made a point above that i found interesting, concerning the status of women. i'm not sure but i got the impression from your posts that you are male?
i am female, and agree entirely with what you said about the different mentality of women and their needs. i like to feel that women are equal but different. i want to be respected as a woman, not to feel pressurized to compete with men to win my respect. i do not like to be looked at as inferior.....but neither do i feel i should have to prove my equality by competing for men's roles (at the expense of my female nature and at the expense of my children's well-being).
i sometimes feel depressed by the modern view ....everyone seems to expect that women should "work".....i do work....very hard....in my home, taking care of my family.
also the idea that educated women will ensure the end of war.....well, that didn't work did it?
sorry baha'i people, no offense meant.....i just saw this post and felt a need to reply.
good luck in your searching for where you fit silver. this is a wonderful site to help you do that, even if it just helps you to accept that maybe you don't quite fit

 

[smkolins]

...
also the idea that educated women will ensure the end of war.....well, that didn't work did it?
sorry baha'i people, no offense meant.....i just saw this post and felt a need to reply.

But some of the wars that used to be are already pretty unthinkable - several European wars were only power seeking. Now we have to justify wars, right wars and wrong wars, measure the costs of lives and say when it is ok or not. Before some wars were pretty much just a decision of capacity, Can I (x King or whatever) do it? A great king must have a great conquering....

Now that women are part of the politic, there is a more immediate need to justify such loss rather than simply grin and bear it.

 

[brotherroger83]

i am a unitarian-baha'i, which is a newer movement of interfaith and liberal baha'is, who follow the baha'i spirituality in light and perspective of unitarian-universalism. also, i have affiliations with various faith traditions like the hare krishnas, RLDS mormons, qur'anist, messianic muslims, independent old catholics, traditional sufis, non-messianic ephraim faith as described in the tanakh or jewish bible, and even still have an active membership in good standing with the traditional baha'i faith. so, i would like to discuss about baha'i faith and the unitarian-baha'i group i am a part of and am active in. feel free to drop a note and i will check back later on sometimes.

 

[radarmark]

Sound interesting, br83. My Religiouys Society of Friends (Quaker) Meeting is very much UU also.