Proofs for existence of God

Discussion in 'Hare Krishna' started by Nitai, Jun 17, 2005.

  1. Nitai

    Nitai New Member

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    Hare Krishna

    Welcome everybody,

    I don't know if you had already this discussion about proofs for existence of God but I was thinking to start it because it is the basis of strengthening faith in God Knowing good arguments one can easily counteract the atheistic arguments against existence of God.

    I would like to request everybody to post at once only one argument. You can also present an argument of the atheists and how you would defeat that.
    So, I am anxiously awaiting your posts.

    Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge.
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    There are no proofs for the existence of God - merely illustrative metaphors. :)

    So far as I understand it, to "prove" is to quantify and measure - but I do not believe that God can be subject to either.

    2c. :)
     
  3. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hello, and Peace to All Here--

    What Brian said. I am compelled to add this: The proof of the existence of God lies in the heart, mind, and Spirit of the individual. We look around, we look inside, and ultimately decide what we believe.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  4. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    If God is everything then he can be measured in a materialistic way.

    The fact that we are here taking about the existence of such a being is enough proof for me.

    Nature has had over 50'000 years to perfect the human being, why would we still be talking about something that does not exist for thousands of years?

    Also as hard core proof, I and my family have been witness to a weeping icon of the virgin Mary in our home. Crying oil on 3 occasions that was all over the window seal that we cleaned. You still need faith to believe me about that ;)
     
  5. StarshipEnterprise

    StarshipEnterprise to boldly go...

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    You have to remember that not all of us here beleive in God. I agree with Brian that the existence of God cannot be prooven or disproven. At this point no human being can comprehend what is the cause for the existense of the universe. We would like to think it is a being like ourselves, so we call it God. Whatever it is, no one really knows

    just thinking.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2005
  6. nomanshake

    nomanshake New Member

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    Well you really can't see God, coz that's one law of God's power.
    If he shows himself up or a miracle, then God might loose his special attribute..
    However the main basis to know God's existence is to feel him, one way to do it ofcourse is to follow your religion and nature, cause I really do feel some bless inside my heart when I go for early morning prayers, its this amazing feeling, that makes me happy all arouind, and to me it's the God's bless through nature, this feeling makes me love nature.
    Another reason to belive in his existence is that.. ok if science is the reason behind the universe, then well who created these scientific matters, that includes atoms, stars, suns, water, etc etc..
     
  7. Nitai

    Nitai New Member

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    Hare Krishna

    Some people are fanatic atheists
    Some people are sceptics or agnostics
    Some people are religious sentimentalists
    Some people are religious fanatics

    Whatever somebody is I think everybody should consider in his life the logic, reasoning and religious experiences that proof God's existence.
    Of course, for some the first two is not enough even it might be very strong reasoning but let's continue.
    It's interesting to see your ideas. When I'll have some more time (soon I hope) I'll give some arguments. Thank you for interesting thoughts.
     
  8. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    No problem - it's an interesting thread, and it's good to see you taking time to share a more personal input, Nitai. :)
     
  9. PluckyAli

    PluckyAli Member

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    I have debated with atheist several times and infact it's my partime job.So who is atheist here?.

    I shall add one more thing.There are two kinds of proofs.A scientifc proof and general proof.God can be prove in general meaning of proof.A God can't be proven or disproven in scientific terms.To prove things in science you need to test them,there is not a way you can test God exist or not.We can only give evidence or make an ID theory,but there is always an uncertainty,just like there is always an uncertainty about evolution or big bang theory.
     
  10. Nitai

    Nitai New Member

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    # the consciousness is the symptom of the soul
    # which is the symptom of life, awareness, feelings and desires
    # because of consciousness there is life and movement
    # our consciousness pervades only the body thus
    # the body is alive because of our consciousness
    # God is the greatest of all living entities thus
    # He is conscious of the whole universe this is because
    # He pervades the whole universe with His Super-consciousness


    # PROOF 1: because of our consciousness we are aware of our body
    # similarly with His Super-consciousness God is aware of everything in the universe
    # Thus He is directing the wanderings of all living entities
    # since He is all-pervading He is also is within the heart of everybody
    # He knows all the past and present activities of all living entities
    # thus He gives to the living entities - in each of their reincarnation - that what they deserve according to their activities
    # PROOF OF REINCARNATION
    * scientific proof - read the research of Ian Stevenson
    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html
    * refutation of critics of Ian Stevenson
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/bookreviews/11-4/edwards.html
    * Scriptural proof - read reincarnation and Christianity
    http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-revelation-1.htm
    # POINT TO UNDERSTAND: according to ones desires, attachments and activities God directs the materially conditioned soul to next life in another body. He gives the soul all the facilities to continue with the activities he stopped in his previous life
    # Without the direction of the all-knowing supreme-conscious being the soul could not find a suitable place for continuing the activities he desires to preform
    # therefor God exist
    # NOTE: of course, we should also consider what one deserves according to the karma (but this is other topic)

    # He is the purifier of impurities
    # it is because of the all-knowing God that one is awarded by enlightenment or love of God
    # many attained His vision as light like Moses, saint Franciscan, Sankaracarya etc,
    # many realised His personal feature or form by meditation
    # thus God appeared before them
    # e.g the true yogis: Patanjali, Dhruva, Yamunacarya etc.
    # In one of the Hadiths it is said that Mohamed sow God face to face and God put His hand on Mohamed.
    # My point is: God stops ones reincarnation when one attains love of God
    # thus He can control the wanderings of living entities or gives them liberation when they deserve
    # it is not in our power to attain purity or attain perfection without God
    # only by the touch of the Purest one can become pure
    # only because of the liberated pure person - God - one can attain liberation
    # just like the King only or his officials can release a man from imprisonment
    # only after coming in touch with God (after long practice) many became transformed manifesting symptoms of love of God

    THE MAINTANER
    # PROOF 2: because of the presence of consciousness in the body our body is maintained
    # God's super-consciousness pervades the whole universe
    # He is there, even within all the atoms
    # thus He maintains the whole universe - the proper rotation of planets and the atomic particles
    # just as our body would immediately collapse without presence of consciousness or the soul
    # similarly the whole universe would immediately collapse if God would leave this universe

    THE SOURCE OF KNOWLEGE, REMEMBERANCE AND FORGETFULNESS
    INSTINCT
    # God gives knowledge to animals -
    # that knowledge by the science is called - instinct
    # E.g. the birds know where to fly (south, east)
    # there is one species of birds; the parents fly one week before the offspring
    # still, the offspring will reach the same destination like their parents

    KNOWLEDGE
    # Mozart said 'the melodies just come', he didn't know from where, he just wrote them down
    # many times scientific discoveries were a surprise
    # not while working in the laboratory and endeavoring by hard thinking and concentration on the subject
    # it came just suddenly from somewhere
    # that 'suddenly' and 'somewhere' means there is a source of knowledge
    # that source of knowledge must be conscious to be able to give (or respond by giving)
    # that source of knowledge must be superior to man who knows more than man
    # that source of knowledge have to be aware of man's desire
    # God knows the desire of everyone since He is in the heart of everyone
    # Therefore, it is the all-knowing Supreme Lord who is the ultimate source of knowledge for man

    REMEBERANCE AND FORGETFULNESS
    # sometimes even the most sober man with a best memory cannot remember the needful
    # it is not in our control to brows through our complex memory disk
    # we don't even think about the process of remembering when desiring to remember something
    # essentially our endeavor to remember is conscious and ultimately we get the information
    # dull matter cannot respond to our desire to remember something
    # therefore, the cause of getting the information can be only a conscious person
    # that conscious person is God, He gives as remembrance through the complex activity of the brain's working
    # similarly it is same with forgetfulness

    # It would be interesting to me that those of you who are atheists try to think about some proof for God's existence. Maybe just for fun you could think and write down something?
     
  11. PluckyAli

    PluckyAli Member

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    Nah

    Reincarnation is for kids.



    I used to believe like this.No more

    By the way are you telling us about God existence or his nature?
     
  12. Nitai

    Nitai New Member

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    Quote:
    In one of the Hadiths it is said that Mohamed sow God face to face and God put His hand on Mohamed.
    Nah

    # Well, this is what I heard from one Sufi. From some other Muslims I also heard that Allah did not put His hand on Mohamed but all of them agreed that they sow each other face to face in the seventh heaven.
    # Therefore, according to the evidence of Mohamed God exist

    Quote:
    My point is: God stops ones reincarnation when one attains love of God

    Reincarnation is for kids.
    # There is no explanation in your argument so it is not a serious objection.

    # But anyway, did you read the stuff on those links I gave? If not, go ahead and think about them seriously with open mind and no prejudice.

    Quote:
    He is there, even within all the atom.

    I used to believe like this. No more

    # Again, I will not take seriously your remark if you don't explain your reason.

    By the way are you telling us about God existence or his nature?

    # Try to read everything again, the whole reasoning and don't pick up only one sentence from the thread, otherwise the purpose is lost and you can ask or say anything quoting out of context.
     
  13. PluckyAli

    PluckyAli Member

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    Yeah,but that arguemnt assumes that your pre-assume the other person believe in sufi,muslims or muhammad.

    This statment also assumes that ye believe in reincarnation and stopping or starting reincarnationl.Reincanration doesnot make sense since we have not seen any perons who can remember his past,so believing in something which is subjective is not very logical.

    Yeah,just briefly.I can't read long posts,i don't like to.I am always open minded,but the above statement can be applied for you.


    This is the statement i would strongly disagree.first of all there is no evidence for it.Your trying to say god is within all atoms,meaning god is his creation,that doesnot makese sense.How can God be everywhere at the same time?.If god is everywhere means god is in the weirdest part of the universe for e.g toilets etc.Why would a god would like to live in a place like that?
    For the above reasons,it doesnot make sense to believe everything is good.

    Yeah but how bout your reasons bout reincarnation,god is everything etc?.

    If your writing in points then reading previous point's should not be a matter of grave.I don't quote oout of context as it is obvious.I quote your full point for e.g bout reincarnation.
     
  14. queenofsheba

    queenofsheba New Member

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    There were proofs like that by Aristotle, Thomas of Aquino etc., but they didn't make sense.
    You can't proof that God exists, but you also can't proof that He doesn't.
     
  15. PluckyAli

    PluckyAli Member

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    Proofs are meant to make sense,if proofs doesnot make sense they can't be called proofs.Prove is strictly only for maths.Scientific theories can't be proven or disproven.We are interested in evidence not proofs.
     
  16. Jaiket

    Jaiket Token Atheist

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    Well said. A guy I've spoken with on another forum says something like "proof is the object of liquor and logic."

    As for the evidences, it comes down to what we term evidence. We can get all mystical and talk of conciousness and knowledge and existence and how god is the source, but if you want anything with substance you have to look to science, in my opinion.

    As far as I can percieve their is no evidence for Hashem, Thor, Krishna, or Odin that is not evidence for the Invisible Pink Unicorn that presides over all creation. :p

    The Judeo-Christian god may well be hanging out in heaven watching me press these keys. For all I know he's debating with Santa over my partiality for beer.
     
  17. Nitai

    Nitai New Member

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    # you pre-assume the other person believe in sufi,muslims or muhammad.
    * reincarnation doesn't depend on believe

    # Reincarnation does not make sense since we have not seen any person who can remember his past
    * If few of you did not have seen that doesn't mean that others did not have seen even those who don't believe in reincarnation.

    # I can't read long posts,i don't like to.
    * Well, then you don't seem to be a serious inquirer. Ian Stevenson's evidences for reincarnation are very good.

    # How can God be everywhere at the same time?.
    * For the religious person this is a question what atheists would ask. He is unlimited; that includes He is everywhere in His unlimited creation. If you don't accept that He is everywhere you are minimizing Him. But God cannot be minimized according to ones whims.

    # If god is everywhere means god is in the weirdest part of the universe for e.g toilets etc.
    * Yes, you are completely right. However, although He is the most abominable places He is not contaminated, nor affected by them. To give you a material example, it is just like with the torchlight illuminating a filthy place, still the light itself will not become dirty. Here on. There is everywhere in this material world a higher reality than material what we observe. In that higher reality lives God.

    # You can't proof that God exists, but you also can't proof that He doesn't.
    * The ultimate proof is your own experience of Him by your developed spiritual senses. You will never experience Him e.g. see, hear or-whatever with your material senses. To develop the spiritual eyes of your soul you you have to cultivate devotion to God. Therefore, it is said that to realize God and attain His association, the only way is through devotion to Him. This is the universal conclusion of all theistic scriptures.

    # We are interested in evidence not proofs.
    * To attain the ultimate goal of religion, God-realization first you have to fully understand the theoretical proofs of existence of God. When you will not doubt anymore, then with conviction you can begin the practice of awakening love of God by which the only way to get the strongest evidence - your own experience of God's existence.
    * When you doubt the theoretically knowledge of God's existence you will also doubt any evidence of which I already gave some.

    # if you want anything with substance you have to look to science, in my opinion.
    * We already discussed science how it is limited only to analyzing the matter thus it is insufficient for God realization or even just explain what is consciousness, which is above all material consideration. Consciousness is the real substance e.g. in the body is the driving force, which when absent it is called death.

    # As far as I can perceive their is no evidence for Hashem, Thor, Krishna, or Odin that is not evidence for the Invisible Pink Unicorn that presides over all creation.
    * There is an interesting evidence of Krishna's presence here on this earth planet before 5000 years ago, The city of Dwaraka in the west-coast of India. There are archaeological evidences Krishna was there. The Mahabharata describes many of His activities.
     
  18. Nitai

    Nitai New Member

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    Once you're ready to ask the question, "does God exist?" here are a few observations to consider as you begin your search for an objective answer:

    Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.
    Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.
    Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?
    The universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?
    Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard. So, ask yourself if you believe in right and wrong and then ask yourself why. Who gave you your conscience? Why does it exist?
    People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?
    If your curiosity has been piqued and you desire to look into this matter further, we recommend that you consider the world's assortment of so-called Holy Books. If God does exist, has He revealed Himself? And if He has revealed Himself, surely He exists...
     
  19. Jaiket

    Jaiket Token Atheist

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    How can I differentiate this evidence from personal delusion?

    The absence of consciousness is unconsciousness, not death. Have you any reason to believe that consciousness is the body's driving force?

    Feel free to elaborate...
     
  20. Nitai

    Nitai New Member

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    Hare Krishna,

    Thank you for the interesting remarks. They are the proof that you are an intelligent seeker of the truth.

    So, here are few comments that, I hope, will a bit clarify the doubts. Let see.

    # How can I differentiate this evidence from personal delusion?
    * If my guess is right by this question you refer to my statement of personal experience of God as an ultimate evidence of God's existence.
    * First of all delusion refers to a material condition in which you think you are the best enjoyer of this material world and you want to enjoy more and more. That is delusion.
    * But experience of God is completely a different story.
    * The first experience of God is through chanting Hare Krishna what doesn't give pleasure to the senses but it gives inner peace and thus inner happiness as well. It is amazing that by chanting Hare Krishna one doesn't become tired, but by chanting any other material name, after chanting it three times you will feel tired. That is the proof. When you chant with proper understanding you can go on chanting Hare Krishna day and night and you will never feel tired. Moreover, in gradual attaining of higher levels of consciousness one can experience more and more happiness. The happiness of the soul. Simultaneously, the knowledge of the Vedas becomes very clear as the sound vibration of Hare Krishna purifies the intelligence and one becomes eager to practice spiritual life. All this is not attainable without chanting of Hare Krishna. To check this out you have to begin yourself to chant Hare Krishna. You will not lose anything by making the experiment. The ultimate fruit of chanting Hare Krishna is pure love of God at which stage Krishna will reveal Himself to you. Yes, at that time one can see Krishna exactly as He is described in the scriptures and the overwhelming ecstatic emotions of love of God become very, very intense. Bliss.

    # The absence of consciousness is unconsciousness, not death. Have you any reason to believe that consciousness is the body's driving force?
    * Ok, here is the best definition of unconsciousness from wikipedia.
    Unconsciousness is the absence of consciousness. Unconsciousness normally only occurs during sleep, and even then dreaming may involve partial or full consciousness of dream events. Unconsciousness may also occur from a concussion, during an epileptic seizure, as a result of intoxication, or due to some other medical condition (such as a neurological dysfunction), and during general anaesthesia.
    * The first statement is a western understanding of unconsciousness. I will give you the Vedic understanding.
    * When there is life there is also consciousness.
    * Consciousness is the symptom of the soul
    * When the soul is in the body there is consciousness.
    * as the above definition of unconsciousness explains, unconsciousness occurs when the body is alive.
    * So, that there is unconsciousness there must be first consciousness just like when you see somebody sleeping you can understand that the person can be also awake.
    * Now, what I was referring to when I said absence of consciousness is when the soul is not anymore in the body - there will be no more any symptoms of consciousness within the body. This everybody knows to be the death of the body.
    * So, the natural conclusion is that the soul with its symptom of consciousness - that pervades the whole body - is the living driving force for the dull material body.

    # There are archaeological evidences that Krishna was present on this earth planet.
    * There are already nice elaborations on this so please go to the link
    http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/krishna-archeology.htm
     

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