'War, is it for Nation or for God?'

tommy

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OK, Constable, let me try a new picture here. Your out on the USS naval ship, outside of enemy waters. Tension is running high among the crew. Young private comes to the Constable and says, I was up late last night reading Revelations and I am concerned that we may be part of the beast, the wild beast, nations, political powers and what about God's new singular goverment in Heaven where we only have one goverment under God? How does the Constable provide comfort and direction to this young private?

Scenario II, Young private is becoming somewhat battle fatigued after 90 days off of enemy waters. He stairs up at the flag blowing in the wind. He then stairs off at the Holy land off in the distance and says to himself, I need to go talk to the Constable. He asks the Constable, what flag would have Jesus have flown if he was here? Would it be the Jewish, US, UK or perhaps a Muslim flag? Or, perhaps Jesus would not have flown a flag at all? have a great Friday, tommy
 

Quahom1

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Re: Leaving the Catholic church

tommy said:
OK, Constable, let me try a new picture here. Your out on the USS naval ship, outside of enemy waters. Tension is running high among the crew. Young private comes to the Constable and says, I was up late last night reading Revelations and I am concerned that we may be part of the beast, the wild beast, nations, political powers and what about God's new singular goverment in Heaven where we only have one goverment under God? How does the Constable provide comfort and direction to this young private?

Scenario II, Young private is becoming somewhat battle fatigued after 90 days off of enemy waters. He stairs up at the flag blowing in the wind. He then stairs off at the Holy land off in the distance and says to himself, I need to go talk to the Constable. He asks the Constable, what flag would have Jesus have flown if he was here? Would it be the Jewish, US, UK or perhaps a Muslim flag? Or, perhaps Jesus would not have flown a flag at all? have a great Friday, tommy
"I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD."

That is the oath that every military man and woman takes when being sworn into the United States Military. It is not an oath to be taken lightly. Because it is an oath sworn before God, it is expected that God will honor and guide the solidier/sailor/airman in his/her endeavor to uphold that sacred oath.

That said, I have had younger members approach with their misgivings based on conscientious objection, or religious concerns, about serving in military service.

First of all I listen to everything my shipmate has to say. Most times, they will talk themselves into or out of the situation they perceive. They just want an ear and an understanding spirit, to their fears.

Courage is not being fearless, courage is moving forward despite fear.

Second of all, Jesus does not enable cowardice. In fact He is the epitimy of bravery. Jesus ordered us to "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's". He also said in all that we do, do for the glory of God. Whether ye be rich or poor, free or slave, (military or not), dedicate your day and your doings to God, and trust that God will guide you.

Third, when we are at our most frightened, and weakest, if we trust in The Lord, that is when He can work His finest within us.

Finally, I let the sailor know that I am sometimes frightened too, and there are times when things are beyond our control (the fouled anchor - a sailor's disgrace), but the job must still get done, and there is no one around but us...so it is up to us to trust in God, pull up our leggings and move forward.

Everytime I took the helm of a ship, the Officer of the Deck and perhaps the Captain of the ship might be on the bridge with me...but Jesus' hand was always on my shoulder while I steered the ship's course...;)

You don't sound like you've ever served in the Military, but I may be wrong. However in the chance you haven't...here is something to ponder about the US military:

[size=+2]The Code of Conduct[/size]

[size=+0]I[/size]

I am an American fighting man.
I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life.
I am prepared to give my life in their defense. [size=+0]II[/size]

I will never surrender of my own free will.
If in command I will never surrender my men while they still have the means to resist. [size=+0]III[/size]

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available.
I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape.
I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy. [size=+0]IV[/size]

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners.
I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades.
If I am senior, I will take command. If not I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way. [size=+0]V[/size]

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war,
I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth.
I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability.
I will make no written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause. [size=+0]VI[/size]

I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free.
I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

my two cents.

v/r

Q

 

Salim Syed

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Re: Leaving the Catholic church

The heart never lies. whenever their is a discomfort of the heart, then you know what you are about to do is wrong, this is an innate way to know what sin is. True peace is achieved when the heart is no longer disturbed by the decision the intellect takes. Only decisions that adhere to God's pleasure and laws can keep the heart at peace.

When going to war one must know that it is justified by Gods laws. If not then the soldier will always carry guilt. For example if your country is invaded and you are being thrown out of your land , then if you have to fight to defend , there is no doubt that you have that right. Your heart will not be disturbed for defending your life.

However if you fight a war becuase you have been told that you must obey orders then you can not be at peace, unless your heart is satisfied that you as a human being were justified in taking your opponents life.

This justification can only be done when the laws of taking human life are laid out in detail by God.

If you do not judge by God's law then how do you no your leader is justified in going to war. He may be an unjust leader, maybe fighting for wealth or power or domination (even if he chants the slogan of "GOD".

If you are a soldier and you are tormented by your service then you know that what you have fought for is not just. Whether the whole country praises you or gives you medals is irrelevant.

i read that the man who dropped the atom bomb on Japen was given a national hero's welcome. But he went into a mental hospital. This was becuase he knows that all the justification in the world by people, will never be able to put his heart at rest. He killed 100 ot 1000's of innocent people.

I am sure he would have rather died than carry that guilt.

Bye.
 

Quahom1

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Re: Leaving the Catholic church

Salim Syed said:
The heart never lies.
The heart is full of deceipt.


Salim Syed said:
However if you fight a war becuase you have been told that you must obey orders then you can not be at peace, unless your heart is satisfied that you as a human being were justified in taking your opponents life..
We choose to obey orders.

Salim Syed said:
This justification can only be done when the laws of taking human life are laid out in detail by God..
To everything there is a purpose, under heaven.

Salim Syed said:
If you do not judge by God's law then how do you no your leader is justified in going to war. He may be an unjust leader, maybe fighting for wealth or power or domination (even if he chants the slogan of "GOD"..
In America, we can call an errant leader, home...

Salim Syed said:
If you are a soldier and you are tormented by your service then you know that what you have fought for is not just. Whether the whole country praises you or gives you medals is irrelevant..
We are not tormented by our service...

Salim Syed said:
i read that the man who dropped the atom bomb on Japen was given a national hero's welcome. But he went into a mental hospital. This was becuase he knows that all the justification in the world by people, will never be able to put his heart at rest. He killed 100 ot 1000's of innocent people.

I am sure he would have rather died than carry that guilt..
You read wrong. The LT Colonel was quite fine in his thinking. He just saved a million more lives from being wasted. The war would have lasted for another year or two, resulting in the damn near extinction of the Japanese people. Not to mention another 200,000 US casualties. His remorse was in the loss of 140,000 lives needlessly because the Japanese government would not give in, and the people followed their emperor. He did not go insane. The Japanese people did, until we dropped a bomb even bigger than their pride could handle.

Salim Syed said:
Ma ah' Sallam...

v/r

Q
 

tommy

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Re: Leaving the Catholic church

This is a pretty interesting debate here covering a cross section of two different views real well. Constable, on the serious side I do want to send my sincere regards your way for putting your life in harms way defending our "nation" and the freedoms we enjoy here. My regards also to Salim for sharing his views in a very peaceful calming manner. I don't fully know my view about war and where the line is actually drawn between defending your county and when God actually wants us to fight a war for Him. I just doesn't seem like times are getting better. I want to add a little more under a new post that I will call: War, is it for nation or God? Peace and Love, tommy
 

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War, is it for Nation or for God?

Sorry for such a heavy duty subject but wanted to interject some thoughts and perhaps gather more after reading the Constables and Salims posts (most had valid and somewhat opposing views that I found remarkable) on the post entitled "Leaving the Catholic Church".

In my opinion, these are the troubles plagued by mankind that will not be resolved until we have a Kingdom under one rule, the true God through Jesus in Heaven. If WWII was not ended would we be speaking German today and saluting an elder Hitler? My opinion is very mixed on war and I do think that is where the nations, political powers and organized religion went wrong. I hated the Vietnam war and loved all the music that came out of it including Dylan, Beatles and all the peace and love stuff of the '60s. OK, flower power didn't work, so what are we going to do about it?

Think of this one. It is 1942 and a German soldier takes oath to God to fight for nation. Now, an American soldier in 1942 takes oath to God to fight nation too. They both take the oath to the true God following the same religion. 1943, they both kill each by the sword. Did both of these soldiers receive favor from God by killing each other or did they die for nation?

Was WWII a war called by God? My Dad fought in WWII and I remember the happy scenes of the women kissing the soldiers at the end of the War and we did face the risk of our Country being taken over. Do we face these risks today? Yes, more then ever. Why? We have not learned the greatest command Jesus gave us and that is to love one another. Jesus also said "those who take the sword will perish by the sword" Matthew 26:52. Jesus foretold wars and what would ultimately happen.

God strictly commanded Isreal that they were not to engage in wars of aggression or conquest beyond the territory he granted to them and they were not to fight any nations other the ones He ordered them to fight. They were not to engage in strife with the nations of Edom, Moab, or Ammon (De 2:4, 5, 9, 19). So this gives it an interesting twist when it can be interpreted by these versus, unless God calls the war???

The poor Isrialites, always moving out, Egypt, stuck in the desert for 40 years since they could not fully obey God and today the situation of having to move again, Gaza Strip. So let me ask the question, when we enter war are we doing it for God or nation?

God is a manly person of war, the God of armies and mighty in battle. Ex 15:3, 2Sa 5:10 Ps 24:8, 10. After Satan was hurled to the earth, he made God's servants on earth, the remaining ones of the "seed of women", who observed the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus. his chief target Rev 12:13.

Perhaps war has been so bad over the last 100 years because Satan has been hurled out of Heaven. Here's Jesus talking in Revelation, "Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having a great anger, knowing he has only a short period of time Rev 12:10, 12.

But has war over the years ultimately solved the problems or made them worse? Look at how my billions of dollars have been spent on building horrible weapons that it is said we, the nations(s) never intent to use.

I even heard on the news there is a Nuclear Weapon missing in the former Soviet Union. Image that, missing, sort of like, I lost my keys, hmm... where did they go? Is long term war helping us or hurting and do you feel like we are entering into more peaceful times?

Wasn't the first commandent from Moses, "Thou shall not kill"? Exodus 20. Remember what Jesus said and maybe all this stuff has to happen "You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars: see that you are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom Matthew 24:6,7, Luke 21 9:10. Peace and Love to all, tommy
 
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Salim Syed

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Re: Leaving the Catholic church

The heart is full of deceipt.

Yes it is full of deceipt unless purified by taken actions against the 'diseases of the heart'. Does not negate the fact that the heart feels discomfort at wrong action...

We choose to obey orders

God gave man freewill, but we are held accountable for our choice and intentions... every man knows his intention and God also knows the deep secrets in our hearts... outward action only fools humans...

In America, we can call an errant leader, home...

An errant leader is an errant leader, the just do not defend the wrong even if it's their own brother, sister or themselves. Justice is applying laws accross the table equally, not one law for your friends and another for anyone different..

We are not tormented by our service...

I am sure there are many who are and are not. Those who are not are either pure in their intentions and stayed within the limits of the rules of engagement, those who are tormented did not have good intentions or did not believe in the cause or transgressed the limits set by God...

You read wrong. The LT Colonel was quite fine in his thinking. He just saved a million more lives from being wasted. The war would have lasted for another year or two, resulting in the damn near extinction of the Japanese people. Not to mention another 200,000 US casualties. His remorse was in the loss of 140,000 lives needlessly because the Japanese government would not give in, and the people followed their emperor. He did not go insane. The Japanese people did, until we dropped a bomb even bigger than their pride could handle.

In Islam the end does not justify the means. If killing innocent women and children and non-combantent men is a sin , then killing 100's of thousands to stop the war is not right. A good end can not be justified by an evil act.

"It is better to be oppressed that be an oppressor" (principle not aimed the US).

To say that the Japs are responsible because they did not give in, is an unbelievable statement ! No they did not invent the atom bomb, No they did not drop it...

Any war that threatens the 'extinction' of a people must be a brutal unjust war, because a war fought within the limits of God's law will only result in the destruction of the army. No transgression can be done against women, children and non-combatents or animals or vegetation or buildings and infrastruture. If no surrender of an army means 'extinction' of a nation , then it means the war is not being fought only against the soldiers, because soldiers only make up a small proportion of the population.

'extinction' means 'if we can not overcome the enemies army, then we will destroy your country - vegetation (chemical weapons), children, buildings, animals, water supplies etc...' this is terrorism at a national level...

Remember terrorism is causing terror in populations that are not armed to defend, whether it's against one man by one man, or a nation against nation, legitimizing terrorism will never change it's nature, it will always be 'terrorising innocent people'.... like Sept 11 , it was terrorism and totally unjustified...
 

Salim Syed

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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?

Heavy subject, but what is more important in this time that God has created us ? The last century was the bloodiest one for mankind , I think the world wars took the lives of nearly 90 million people !

First of all I would like to list the rules of war in Islam (with my low level of knowledge...) Taken from another article I read on Islam...

------------------------------------- start of article
Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. - Quran 2:190

But just what are these limits? Chapter four of the book Human Rights in Islam by 'Allamah Abu al-'A'la Mawdudi is entitled The Rights of Enemies at War. The author states:

Islam has first drawn a clear line of distinction between the combatants and the non-combatants of the enemy country. As far as the non-combatant population is concerned such as women, children, the old and the infirm, etc., the instructions of the Prophet are as follows:

"Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman" (Abu Dawud). "Do not kill the monks in monasteries" or "Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship" (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal).

During a war, the Prophet saw the corpse of a woman lying on the ground and observed: "She was not fighting. How then she came to be killed?" From this statement of the Prophet the exegetists and jurists have drawn the principle that those who are non-combatants should not be killed during or after the war.

The Prophet also prohibited the killing of anyone who is tied or is in captivity.


Do not transgress limits!

These points are reinforced by other sayings of Prophet Mohammed collected in The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l-Siyar)

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of God said: Do not desire an encounter with the enemy; but when you encounter them, be firm. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4313

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of God . He disapproved of the killing of women and children. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4319

It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of God forbade the killing of women and children. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4320

Abu Bakr , the first caliph or successor to Prophet Mohammed established a detailed set of rules for Islamic conduct in war. He gave these instructions to an Islamic army setting out for Syria, then still part of the Byzantine Empire:

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"

------------------------------- End of article

So these are the limits set by God. No justification can be used to transgress these limit, either my Muslims or others.

For instance as someone said in the other forum, the atom bomb dropped on Japan stopped the war and hence saved another million lives...

His statment is very dangerous ! first of all he is not God. Only God knows the future. Any nation on earth can use the same theory - 'if we decimate all others they will be terrified and never stand up to us'

This is terrorism - putting terror into the hearts of innocent people in order to turn a battle which you are losing around.

You cannot break the limits set by God, full stop. If it means you will be defeated then so be it ! it is better to die being oppressed than becoming an oppressor.

Also what does it mean to fight for your nation ? Yes if someone is invading you land or forcing you into starvation or taking away your right to follow your faith, then I would say it's a justification to fight until your homes are secure or your rights restored.

Weapons such as atom bombs, nuclear bomb, chemical weapons, naypalm are satanic weapons. Becuase these by their design are weapons of terror, they can not be targeted only to soldiers.

What was left behind in vietnam is Satanic ! even today women are having deformed children ! what did these children do wrong ?

.........

I don;t want to get political.... but stay on religious principle, so I won't go into stories of engineered wars , but it is sad to see Millions dying, going to war because of nationalism and patriotism...

What is great about a nation ? it is only the a boundary of land, with people who eat different food and dress differently and talk a different language.

If every person was taught what is a just war and what is not a just war , and stick to it , then these tyrant leaders would not be able to manipulate millions of people to kill each other for slogans.

Our people are great, Our nations is great ... No ! only God is great and we are all his servants. The greatest position a human can reach is servanthood to God.

"to kill one human being (unjustly) is like killing the whole of mankind"

There is nothing more valuable in this universe than life. All wars fought outside of self defense, is for other intentions... nothing can justify them....

Until every human being looks to every other human as his brother, there will not be peace... Would anyone drop an atom bomb on his own family ?

The acid test is turn the situation around and then see if you feel it is just. If the Japs dropped an atom bomb on NYC and the Americans surrendered, would you say that it was a good thing because millions more would have died, or the American would have become extinct...?

Your heart can not lie !

May God forgive us.... Amen
 

tommy

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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?

Hi Salim: Even though we have many differing views, I think you have set a record for the most posts in two days, 25! In America we would would say that you are an Energy Bunny:).

The one point that I would differ on that I know is a big one is that Jesus was more then a Prophet, as I even read in one of your posts an acknowlegement that he ascended into Heaven, something greater then a Prophet has the ability to do. tommy
 

Quahom1

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Re: Leaving the Catholic church

Salim Syed said:
The heart is full of deceipt.

Yes it is full of deceipt unless purified by taken actions against the 'diseases of the heart'. Does not negate the fact that the heart feels discomfort at wrong action...

We choose to obey orders

God gave man freewill, but we are held accountable for our choice and intentions... every man knows his intention and God also knows the deep secrets in our hearts... outward action only fools humans...

In America, we can call an errant leader, home...

An errant leader is an errant leader, the just do not defend the wrong even if it's their own brother, sister or themselves. Justice is applying laws accross the table equally, not one law for your friends and another for anyone different..

We are not tormented by our service...

I am sure there are many who are and are not. Those who are not are either pure in their intentions and stayed within the limits of the rules of engagement, those who are tormented did not have good intentions or did not believe in the cause or transgressed the limits set by God...

You read wrong. The LT Colonel was quite fine in his thinking. He just saved a million more lives from being wasted. The war would have lasted for another year or two, resulting in the damn near extinction of the Japanese people. Not to mention another 200,000 US casualties. His remorse was in the loss of 140,000 lives needlessly because the Japanese government would not give in, and the people followed their emperor. He did not go insane. The Japanese people did, until we dropped a bomb even bigger than their pride could handle.

In Islam the end does not justify the means. If killing innocent women and children and non-combantent men is a sin , then killing 100's of thousands to stop the war is not right. A good end can not be justified by an evil act.

"It is better to be oppressed that be an oppressor" (principle not aimed the US).

To say that the Japs are responsible because they did not give in, is an unbelievable statement ! No they did not invent the atom bomb, No they did not drop it...

Any war that threatens the 'extinction' of a people must be a brutal unjust war, because a war fought within the limits of God's law will only result in the destruction of the army. No transgression can be done against women, children and non-combatents or animals or vegetation or buildings and infrastruture. If no surrender of an army means 'extinction' of a nation , then it means the war is not being fought only against the soldiers, because soldiers only make up a small proportion of the population.

'extinction' means 'if we can not overcome the enemies army, then we will destroy your country - vegetation (chemical weapons), children, buildings, animals, water supplies etc...' this is terrorism at a national level...

Remember terrorism is causing terror in populations that are not armed to defend, whether it's against one man by one man, or a nation against nation, legitimizing terrorism will never change it's nature, it will always be 'terrorising innocent people'.... like Sept 11 , it was terrorism and totally unjustified...
Salim Syed,

If Tommy makes a new thread titled "War" I would like to take these last few posts of ours and put them in that thread, because it appears we have diverted from the original thought of this particular thread. Then we can continue to share our philosopies. Do you agree?

v/r

Q
 

Salim Syed

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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?

I think it's just an initial burst will probably wane soon...

Don't really want to go into a discussion about whether Jesus is a Prophet or God or Son of God. It it debated all the time and I think Christians get tired of Muslims hitting on this point..

I do think however there is a huge Christian population who do not know how much text Islam has about Jesus, and how close Muslims are to Christians in faith...

I find most non-Muslims in the UK are quite surprised that Muslims believe in Jesus.

...
 

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Re: Temp

Apologies, will try and keep to the thread from now on...


First time on a forum, takes time to get used to the laws of the forum..

Please be patient with me...
 

Quahom1

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Re: Temp

Salim Syed said:
Apologies, will try and keep to the thread from now on...


First time on a forum, takes time to get used to the laws of the forum..

Please be patient with me...
No worries, Got nowhere to go, and all day to get there...:D

v/r

Q
 

Quahom1

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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?

tommy said:
Sorry for such a heavy duty subject but wanted to interject some thoughts and perhaps gather more after reading the Constables and Salims posts (most had valid and somewhat opposing views that I found remarkable) on the post entitled "Leaving the Catholic Church".

In my opinion, these are the troubles plagued by mankind that will not be resolved until we have a Kingdom under one rule, the true God through Jesus in Heaven. If WWII was not ended would we be speaking German today and saluting an elder Hitler? My opinion is very mixed on war and I do think that is where the nations, political powers and organized religion went wrong. I hated the Vietnam war and loved all the music that came out of it including Dylan, Beatles and all the peace and love stuff of the '60s. OK, flower power didn't work, so what are we going to do about it?
In this we are in agreement. However the Kingdom under one rule must not be of human making. As far as Germany winning WWII, I doubt that it would have happened. The war may have dragged on for a decade or so, however the United States had a manufacturing capacity that far outstripped that of the German war machine. Russia and Great Britan would have never surrendered as long as the US could supplement their manufacturing needs. Also consider that the United States was dragged kicking and screaming into WWII (WWI as well come to think of it). As the good Admiral Yamoto (I believe) said, "I fear we have awakened the Sleeping Giant." We are loathe to enter battle, but once in the United States is loathe to leave it, until it is finished.

Think of this one. It is 1942 and a German soldier takes oath to God to fight for nation. Now, an American soldier in 1942 takes oath to God to fight nation too. They both take the oath to the true God following the same religion. 1943, they both kill each by the sword. Did both of these soldiers receive favor from God by killing each other or did they die for nation?
The German soldier took an oath to Hitler (Das Feurere) (sp), not to God. The Germans declared war on the US, not the other way around. There were a great many citizens in the US who sided with Germany, before Hitler made the mistake of declaring war on the US. Had he realized this, things might have been different.

By the way, the vote to make English or Dutch German the national language of the United States occured in 1789. English beat German by only one vote.

Was WWII a war called by God? My Dad fought in WWII and I remember the happy scenes of the women kissing the soldiers at the end of the War and we did face the risk of our Country being taken over. Do we face these risks today? Yes, more then ever. Why? We have not learned the greatest command Jesus gave us and that is to love one another. Jesus also said "those who take the sword will perish by the sword" Matthew 26:52. Jesus foretold wars and what would ultimately happen.

We have learned. The United States is the most generous nation on the face of the earth today...and it doesn't matter. We are hated, despised, loathed, and generally looked down upon by the elder nations of earth. The only time we are looked up to is when others are in trouble. Ever notice when an American is told "You can't do that..." the first words out of the American mouth are "Watch me..." ? We have a can do attitude, that really ticks others off.

God strictly commanded Isreal that they were not to engage in wars of aggression or conquest beyond the territory he granted to them and they were not to fight any nations other the ones He ordered them to fight. They were not to engage in strife with the nations of Edom, Moab, or Ammon (De 2:4, 5, 9, 19). So this gives it an interesting twist when it can be interpreted by these versus, unless God calls the war???
When a soveriegn country is attacked without provocation, I think God is ordering us to respond. On December 7, 1941 (a Sunday morning no less), 3000 people were killed by a warring nation. (a warring race of humans). On September 11, 2001 (a morning no less), 3000 people were killed by a warring race of humans. Both invoked the Divine as their war cry. Both blamed the US for their predicament in life. Both used sneak attacks as their choice of battle. Both thought the United States as soft and weak, both were wrong...

The poor Isrialites, always moving out, Egypt, stuck in the desert for 40 years since they could not fully obey God and today the situation of having to move again, Gaza Strip. So let me ask the question, when we enter war are we doing it for God or nation?
Your preamble does not match your question, I can't answer, since I don't understand the question.

God is a manly person of war, the God of armies and mighty in battle. Ex 15:3, 2Sa 5:10 Ps 24:8, 10. After Satan was hurled to the earth, he made God's servants on earth, the remaining ones of the "seed of women", who observed the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus. his chief target Rev 12:13.
Perhaps war has been so bad over the last 100 years because Satan has been hurled out of Heaven. Here's Jesus talking in Revelation, "Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having a great anger, knowing he has only a short period of time Rev 12:10, 12.

But has war over the years ultimately solved the problems or made them worse? Look at how my billions of dollars have been spent on building horrible weapons that it is said we, the nations(s) never intent to use.

Well, Germany and Japan are stronger now, economically and politically than they have every been...small thanks to the United States. They have not lost their culture, their pride, nor their dignity. It's almost like get into a war with the US, then we'll get fixed. Because the US will fix us. We did not lose the Vietnam war technically. (for example). That country has benefitted from our presence, and continues to do so. Vietnam is coming of age, and thriving.

I even heard on the news there is a Nuclear Weapon missing in the former Soviet Union. Image that, missing, sort of like, I lost my keys, hmm... where did they go? Is long term war helping us or hurting and do you feel like we are entering into more peaceful times?

It is hard to determine. There are those who want power, and will stop at nothing to get it. Their mistake is underestimating the will of the average American. They can not conceive of a people who will fight, and never give in, just because. They are learning however, that to attempt to intimidate, doesn't work. Tommy, Americans are an enigma to the rest of the world. Just when they think the understand us, we flip the table so to speak.

Wasn't the first commandent from Moses, "Thou shall not kill"? Exodus 20. Remember what Jesus said and maybe all this stuff has to happen "You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars: see that you are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom Matthew 24:6,7, Luke 21 9:10. Peace and Love to all, tommy
Then the Lord taught the 300 or so how to bring the walls of Jericho down, and instructed the soldiers to leave no one alive.

Is war murder? I don't know. If the enemy was pointing rifles at your family, and your nation's soldiers shot them from behind, thus saving your family, what would you say?

"you should not have shot them?" Or, thank God you saved me and mine's lives?

Can't have it both ways.

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war is it for nation or God ?I suppose it depends on whether a person is in Gods army or the worlds army ,if a person is part of Gods army he would be listening for instructions from God,such asthe following.

In answer he said: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind,’ and, ‘your neighbor as yourself.(luke 10;27).....

I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith(2 timothy 4;7)

(1 Thessalonians 5:8) But as for us who belong to the day, let us keep our senses and have on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation;

Stand firm, therefore, with YOUR loins girded about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness(Ephesians 6;14)

Above all things, take up the large shield of faith, with which YOU will be able to quench all the wicked one’s burning missiles(Ephesians 6;16)

Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word(Ephesians 6;17)
As a fine soldier of Christ Jesus take your part in suffering evil(2 timothy 2;3)

And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore(isaiah 2;4)

(Micah 4:3) And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.​


(Matthew 5:44) However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU;​


(Matthew 26:52) Then Jesus said to him: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.


For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things(2 corinthians 10;4)

because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places(Ephesians 6;12) so its spiritual warfare for followers of Gods word the bible .to be involved in litaral warfare would not be Good
And when YOU spread out YOUR palms, I hide my eyes from YOU. Even though YOU make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed YOUR very hands have become filled(Isaiah 1;15)

(Proverbs 28:9) He that is turning his ear away from hearing the law—even his prayer is something detestable.​


(Isaiah 59:2) No, but the very errors of YOU people have become the things causing division between YOU and YOUR God, and YOUR own sins have caused the concealing of [his] face from YOU to keep from hearing.​


(Lamentations 3:44) You have blocked approach to yourself with a cloud mass, that prayer may not pass through.​


(Micah 3:4) At that time they will call to Jehovah for aid, but he will not answer them. And he will conceal his face from them in that time, according as they committed badness in their dealings.






 

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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?

May God forgive us.... Amen
Good Evening Salim,

I think to understand and come to a conclusion as to whether a war is just or not, one must view the entire contents of the situation, including events that lead up to that "war".

The debate on War and Pacifism is more of a paradox, than a contradiction, when viewing such from a scriptural perspective. On one hand we are told that murder is murder, whether against one's own society, or against that of another. On the other hand we are told that there is such a thing as a "just war", and we are obliged to participate to one extent or another in serving that cause.

Abraham (then still Abram), normally a peaceful man, did go to war against the four kings who abducted his relative (Lot). He not only defeated the kings armies, he destroyed their cities and stripped them of all their riches. Extreme? Perhaps, yet God called him blessed, and sanctified his actions against the enemy.

Joshua, the people and the priests with the aid of God, knocked the walls of Jericho flat. They then put to the sword every man, woman, child, and animal within that city. They burned the city to the ground, took the riches and then cursed the ground that the city once stood on.

Extreme? Yes. But God gave specific instructions on how the war was to be conducted. And there were specific reasons as to why the wars were to be so devastating not only to the armies of the enemy, but to the citizens as well as the very land they "owned".

The spirit of the vanquished had to be broken, or else they would come back again and again, and there would be no end to the fighting.

Spin up to modern times. In the 1890s forward, both the Kaiser's Germany, and the Emporor's Japan, had expansionist ideals. In 1905, Japan fought and won a limited war with Russia, resulting in the loss of several Islands under Russian sovergnty to Japan. They didn't stop there. China was invaded over and over again. Chinese citizens were if not raped and tortured, made slaves. Korea suffered at the hands of the Japanese Imperial Army as well. Anyone the Japanes conquered were considered second class humans, and treated worse than animals.

The Kaiser's Army decided that France, Belgium and other Frank countries should fly under the flag of the Prussian double headed Eagle. Though the US was not directly involved in the fighting, it was providing logistical support to the British and French. The Kaiser decided to teach America a lesson, and sank the Lucitania (killing American Citizens and destroying American property). So the American "dough boys" stepped into the fray, and didn't stop until the war was over.

Jump to world war II. Hitler did not want America to get into the war, and went to extremes in the beginning to avoid it. He wanted the US to be an Ally at best, and neutral at worst. But Japan had other ideas. Japan wanted to rule the Pacific Rim, and figured with the US Navy out of the way, they'd have carte blanche, plus, they wanted the Aleutian Islands of Alaska for their own. They attacked a sleeping nation. When this happened, Hitler had no choice but to declare war on the United States (in support of his Japanese ally).

City and country farm boys of America metamorphasised into what the German soldiers called "The devil dogs" (US soliders and Marines).

Towards the end of the war, both nations were putting 13 to 15 year old children in uniforms with guns or airplanes. Old women were building bombs in back yards.

The orders to the two nations were to fight to the death, every last man, woman and child. No surrender, for a war they started.

Skip up to the 21st century. In the twelve years preceding 9/11, this country was attacked at least 6 times, and we did nothing but maybe fire a couple million dollar missiles into an empty tent and hit a camel in the ass. We kept saying "don't do that, don't do that."

In 1988, Sadam Hussein bombed the USS Ward, and then said "oops my mistake". In 1990 he decided he was going to take back Kuwait, against that nation's wishes. After the fall of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia was next, and that would have put 43% of the world's oil reserves in the hands of hostile intent. In 1991, he destroyed his own citizens because they did not agree with the way he ran the country. In 1993 two of our embassies were leveled, the Twin Towers were bombed in New York, and we kept saying "don't do that to us". Then 9/11 dawned.

I'm not talking ideology, or religion here. This was madness, plain and simple. Did these people really think we would let that go by unchallenged? Do you really think we are going to stop, and go home? Get out of our land, that is what we are told...and we don't shoot those who are so frustrated to say that, because they know we won't.

So I guess freedom of expression is beginning to work, where once it meant death.

Oh, we've pulled some serious blunders, to be sure. We had no business being in Somalia, or the Baltic states. We messed up by thinking that we had to work with the United Nations, only to find out that the UN is one big cesspool of self serving idiots, with no regard for anyone but their own interests. But we learn quickly.

I am amazed sometimes at the short sightedness of the rest of the world when it comes to Americans. We are you, afterall.

Americans are the best and the worst the world has to offer.

Despite our bickering and other troubles, we are still one nation, under God (don't let American media fool you).

Like my son once said, "America came in like a lamb, and will go out like a Lion". And he is right.

The most dangerous animal on earth is a wounded pacifist, who finally picks up a sword...

That's about it.

v/r

Q

There, but for the Grace of God go I...so here I go.
 

juantoo3

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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?

Kindest Regards, Salim Syed, and welcome to CR!

Salim Syed said:
Heavy subject, but what is more important in this time that God has created us?
Indeed, and I don't know how much I will contribute before I refrain, because my views are not usually well received. When I joined here, I promised myself I would not discuss the current hostilities, nor will I discuss war in any more than abstract terms. That said, I will attempt to address some of your concerns, which are in my mind very valid.

First of all I would like to list the rules of war in Islam
Thank you very much, your insight in this is greatly appreciated.

St. Augustine was once asked by a (Roman?) Emperor how to conduct a "Just War."

I did not find any direct quotes of St. Augustine, but I found very many references to this, and it is said that St. Augustine told that Emperor that to be just, a war had to be conducted by a twofold set of rules. (I have listed somewhere else on this site, I forget now where, it has been quite a while since I posted it.)

It should be easy enough to look up, and consists of "Jus Ad Bellum" and "Jus In Bello," Justice in cause and conduct of warfare. I do not recall fully what they all were, but I found it very interesting that the current hostilities being waged by the Bush administration were perhaps the most "just" by St. Augustine's standards that have been conducted in the last hundred years, and probably in history since Augustine's time.

By contrast, WWII and WWI were not even attempted to be conducted by St. Augustine's standards, by any of the combatants. For instance, in WW's I and II civilian populations were frequently (habitually?) targeted, whereas (despite the rhetoric to the contrary) civilians are not intentional targets now. This is in accord with St. Augustine's teaching.

So, this is in clear agreement with what you say here:
Islam has first drawn a clear line of distinction between the combatants and the non-combatants of the enemy country. As far as the non-combatant population is concerned such as women, children, the old and the infirm, etc., the instructions of the Prophet are as follows:

"Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman" (Abu Dawud). "Do not kill the monks in monasteries" or "Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship" (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal).

During a war, the Prophet saw the corpse of a woman lying on the ground and observed: "She was not fighting. How then she came to be killed?" From this statement of the Prophet the exegetists and jurists have drawn the principle that those who are non-combatants should not be killed during or after the war.
Now, I suppose I could remark about the indiscriminate killing by the "Iraqi patriots" in killing their own women, children, aged and infirm in the attempt to "defend" their country, but I would think that to cross the line of my promise, so I will refrain.

The Prophet also prohibited the killing of anyone who is tied or is in captivity.
The US abides by the Geneva Convention regarding prisoners of war. Even those at Gitmo are treated with a level of respect unheard of by any other nation in any other war I am familiar with. Is it nice, is it pretty, is it a country club? NO, and it should not be. But consider the alternative...under Saddam for example. Of course, I cannot help but be reminded how many prisoners have been beheaded at this point...

Do not transgress limits!

These points are reinforced by other sayings of Prophet Mohammed collected in The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l-Siyar)

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of God said: Do not desire an encounter with the enemy; but when you encounter them, be firm. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4313
Indeed! Sun-Tzu, whose seminal work "The Art of War," written something like a thousand years before Jesus, wrote something very similar. "The Art of War" is one of the texts used for teaching in the US military academies, so I am told.

So these are the limits set by God. No justification can be used to transgress these limit, either my Muslims or others.
I do not wish to appear provocative. I must first confess a very great ignorance of Islam. I mean no disrespect, and I wish to not display any disrespect. By saying "limits set by God," I presume then that the messenger that gave these words must be revered in Islam.

I run that risk in my faith as well, confusing the messenger with the message. It is difficult sometimes to discern when the words of wisdom are human or divine in origin. Human wisdom has its place, but is not the same as Divine wisdom.

So, for instance, I could presume that all nations must at all times abide by St. Augustine's teachings, as the will of God. And so few ever have, anywhere, anytime. It is a difficult thing to insist other cultures abide by your own culture's rules, especially if the other culture is not aware of what those rules are. Would you not think it better to find common ground and understanding?

For instance as someone said in the other forum, the atom bomb dropped on Japan stopped the war and hence saved another million lives...
Now we get into the philosophy of John Mills and his students called "Utilitarianism." "For the greater good." From what I see in your post, I don't know that I can make this clear. For a religious student, it is a difficult thing to consider. A secular leader, especially a political or military leader, must sometimes make hard choices between two bad alternatives. Once in a difficult situation, there is no easy way out. You could say that any choice is "damned if you do and damned if you don't." The decision to drop the bomb on Japan was one such choice. The bomb had finally been completed and successfully tested. The choice was made to use it, becasue killing 100-plus thousand people in two drops was deemed the lesser of two evils. In the end it saved countless many more lives on both sides. You may disagree, that is your right, but that is the reasoning that was used by the leaders (President Truman and the military high command).

And Q was correct, in that while we did devastate so much of Germany (and Europe) and Japan, in the end we also went back and fixed a whole lot at our expense, and Germany and Japan both are now serious competitors in the global marketplace. Is that a fair price for the countless lives lost? Perhaps not...but how many other victors in war have done anything even close? And we did it without griping or complaining, and with little to no thanks. How often do you hear of the good things Americans are doing in Iraq, rebuilding schools and hospitals and waterworks and electricity and other things that make life reasonable? Almost never, yet be assured that work is being done as well as the more unpleasant things.
 

juantoo3

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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?

****
His statment is very dangerous ! first of all he is not God. Only God knows the future. Any nation on earth can use the same theory - 'if we decimate all others they will be terrified and never stand up to us'
But this is a very dangerous assumption to make. At no time has an American leader claimed to be speaking for God. Men like Truman and Roosevelt knew they were only men, they made no attempt to make themselves seem Holy. I want to believe they prayed for guidance, as I know Abraham Lincoln did during our civil war, but none of our (US) wars have ever been "holy wars." We do not fool ourselves in that manner.

But the thing most errant in your presumption is that Americans willfully wish to decimate anybody. Let us look at the reality: if we truly wished to, Iraq would be a field of radioactive glass where nothing would live for centuries. We hold that kind of firepower, and yet we choose not to use it. Even though it costs us the lives of many fine young men and women, we chose not to decimate the Iraqi people. Our "war" is not against the people, it is against their ruler. It is against those who follow him, who want to hold the kind of terror he did over the rest.

This is terrorism - putting terror into the hearts of innocent people in order to turn a battle which you are losing around.
So I see this the other way around.

You cannot break the limits set by God, full stop. If it means you will be defeated then so be it ! it is better to die being oppressed than becoming an oppressor.
If America were truly oppressing the people of Iraq, I could understand this statement. Since we are not, and any honest look at the matter will show what I say is true, then this statement does not apply.

Also what does it mean to fight for your nation ? Yes if someone is invading you land or forcing you into starvation or taking away your right to follow your faith, then I would say it's a justification to fight until your homes are secure or your rights restored.
Of course. It is to be expected. Yet America feeds the world, including Iraqis. So who are we starving? And we have from the beginning insisted we want the Iraqi people to govern themselves, giving them back the rights they are given by God that they did not have under Saddam.

Weapons such as atom bombs, nuclear bomb, chemical weapons, naypalm are satanic weapons. Becuase these by their design are weapons of terror, they can not be targeted only to soldiers.
But weapons like civilian airliners with innocent passengers flying into tall buildings full of innocent people is a just way to wage holy war? Name one instance where a single American attack in either Iraq or Afghanistan claimed even hundreds of lives, let alone the what, 4 thousand I think was the count in Manhattan alone. And by far most of those attacks are waged specifically at combatants. There are American soldiers who have died because they let down their guard around "civilians" who snuck in weapons and cowardly attacked. This is righteous?

What was left behind in vietnam is Satanic ! even today women are having deformed children ! what did these children do wrong ?
Vietnam was a travesty on many levels, mostly in how it was run by the politicians. War does nasty things to people, even those who live. Sometimes, in order to live, people become nasty. This is sad, yes. But it does not make one side or the other righteous.

There is a lot to world politics you overlook. I will accept that you may not be aware, just as there is a great deal of world politics around the Middle East and Asia I am not familiar with. But in the struggle between Communism and Democracy, I will side with Democracy. Communism had world dominance by force as its goal. Vietnam was instrumental in breaking that goal. The blood shed was tragic, but were it not so, the world would be a very different place today. I do not think it would be nearly as good as it is. Is it perfect, no. But it could be a whole lot worse. And I am sorry, but for all of the good intent and well meaning, I do not think a jihad to make the whole world comply to Sharia law would be any better. If you think the world is a bad place with America as the policeman of the world, at leasst we try very hard to be tolerant of others. In what I have seen of Islamic empirialism, tolerance is the first thing to go. This is so throughout the history of the spread of Islam, across Africa into Southern Europe, and to the East as well. Tolerance is not Islam's strong point. I do not wish to be provocative with this statement, I am merely pointing out historic fact.

And America is not the same as the Crusaders. America did not even exist. America is mostly Christian, but not all. In fact, we have a lot of Muslims too, including immigrants from Iraq. And they are treated for the most part equally with all other citizens. They are free to come and go, to believe as they wish, to go to school and church/temple/mosque, to work and earn a living, buy houses and property, to speak their minds, to get healthcare, and on and on ... How many Christians in Islamic lands are allowed to be equal with their fellow Muslims? I have heard of only one (Tarek Azziz, Saddam's UN ambassador). The rest are persecuted and killed. Only in Lebanon and Turkey are Christians allowed any form of freedom to exist alongside their muslim brothers and sisters. And that is because of the secular governments, not Sharia.

Now, Christians are not guiltless of saying one thing and doing another. But what you say here is not being practiced in any Holy sense by the Muslim combatants. So it is very unfair to pretend that it is.

What is great about a nation ? it is only the a boundary of land, with people who eat different food and dress differently and talk a different language.
Which is why muslims too, need to learn and practice tolerance.

If every person was taught what is a just war and what is not a just war , and stick to it...
Yes. So, when Muslim Holy Warriors begin to practice what they preach, then your arguments will hold merit. Until then, humans are not perfect, and probably never will be. So we all do the best we can with what we understand.

only God is great and we are all his servants. The greatest position a human can reach is servanthood to God.
Agreed. God is great! And servanthood to God is a grand calling. Not all men are called to serve God directly (as priests/rabbis/immams), some men are called to be servants of their fellow men, and so do God service in that way. One way to serve their fellow men is in the military.

Until every human being looks to every other human as his brother, there will not be peace... Would anyone drop an atom bomb on his own family ?
Would anyone willingly crash an airplane into his own house?

The acid test is turn the situation around and then see if you feel it is just. If the Japs dropped an atom bomb on NYC and the Americans surrendered, would you say that it was a good thing because millions more would have died, or the American would have become extinct...?
So, God's will prevailed. The Japs did not get the bomb, God gave it to us, probably because He knew we would have the wisdom to use it prudently and justly. There has not been another nuclear bomb dropped on anybody in anger since. I doubt a warrior nation like Japan at that time, or dare I day Jihadis now, that would use such restraint.

Your heart can not lie !

May God forgive us.... Amen
Perhaps, but somewhere between heart and lips, we often do lie to ourselves, and from there to others. And sometimes what we think is our heart, is not. And sometimes we do not truly understand what it is our heart is telling us, and may spend a lifetime trying to learn.

So yes, may God forgive us. We will make mistakes. Not that we want to, it just happens. It is part of being human.

I hope I have not offended. That is not my intent. I only wish to present my view. I will not continue in this, because I have a bad habit of getting carried away on this subject. This is a fault of mine, God has made me aware, and I will refrain for the sake of civility and discussion among the rest. Thank you for your patience and kindness in letting me speak to this. I enjoy your posts, and look forward to more. Peace and God bless.
 

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The Philosopher, the Theologian and the soldier...what a trio we make ;)


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Juantoo3,

Thanks for the reply. Your opinion did not offend, it's a very hot and difficult subject.

My post was to set the record straight on the rules of war in Islam. I am sure you would not argue with the rules given. Also one must be just in judging peoples actions and the religion.

For example Sep11 - The laws of Islam forbid this and if it was carried out by Muslims then they have committed a terrible sin. From my understanding of Islam this was mass murder not a Holy war. Also the only martyrs on that terrible day were the firemen who sacrified their lives for no other reason that to save lives.

Apart from a tiny fanatic section of the Muslim world, no one agreed with Sept11. Because the majority know the laws laid down by God. And they know it was wrong.

If the Muslims say that Sep11 was wrong then you should accept that they believe this and if the laws in Islam forbid it then you should accept that 'Islam' does not promote this, even if some hate bent Muslims do an act like this.


What I am trying to say is, we have a set of religious principles. If all of the Muslims were to break these principles it does not make the actions right. Because the laws of God specify what is right, that (for Muslims) does not change.

Also there is no such thing as 'Holy War' in Islam, this is a christian term. Jihad simply means 'struggle'.

It is to be expected. Yet America feeds the world, including Iraqis. So who are we starving? And we have from the beginning insisted we want the Iraqi people to govern themselves, giving them back the rights they are given by God that they did not have under Saddam

I was not implying that America was starving anyone. My point was about the conditions that should be set to go to war.

What I mean is , if other nations had started waging war on American soil, or stop food getting to American people, or stopping American following their faith, then they could have justification to waging wars.

This is what I see as 'self defense'. Fighting people becuase they may do this or they may spread a different ideology in another part of the world, for me is not justified.

Yes. So, when Muslim Holy Warriors begin to practice what they preach, then your arguments will hold merit. Until then, humans are not perfect, and probably never will be. So we all do the best we can with what we understand.

A Muslim cannot be a Holy worrier if the act it's self is against God's law. For instance just to make the point clear, drinking alcohol in Islam is forbidden. When a Muslim drinks alcohol, for that period of time he is in a state of non-belief i.e. his actions are like someone who disbelieves.

So a Muslim who kills an innocent person is not in an 'Islamic state' when doing a criminal act.

My basic point seem to 'want to' say Islam promotes these bad actions , even though they know Islam forbids it and that some Muslims have done bad actions which are against the religion.

If for instance you said that Christianity forbids chemical weapons and then America used them. It would be wrong for me to say Christianity promotes the use of chemical weapons. Because I would now have the knowledge of the religious principle and can see that it is the humans error not the religion it's self.

No matter what you say or what Muslims scholars , media etc say, some people keep saying Islam promotes this and that. I think this is because they do not want to accept that another religion can have just principles, even if the are sometimes broken by the followers.

All my text on Japan and the atom bomb was trying to put down a principle, I was not attacking Americans. If a Muslim country dropped an atom bomb I would apply the same rules.

What I wanted to find out from these posts are the underlying Christian principles for rules of war. Not the American constitution or the geneva convention. Mankind can make up many good and bad laws.

I wanted to see if Christianity has any fast and hard rules that in principles can never be broken - a basis for all other state and national laws, that people of other faith can say 'Christian law says this... but the American government did that....'

How many Christians in Islamic lands are allowed to be equal with their fellow Muslims?

I am afraid that this statement is unfounded. If you read the history of Islamic empires you will find that no other religious based empire has treated other faiths with the respect and tolerance of Islam. Again this is based on the fact that the Holy Quran and Prophet Muhammad (saas) laid down principles that cannot be broken. They are very detailed.

Please buy yourself a DVD called 'Islam Empire Of Faith' which puts the history of Islam into perspective.

Peace be upon you

Anyone who has joined this thread, please forgive me if I have offended in anyway, this was not my intention, just trying to clarify what I feel is Islam vs peoples actions....




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