Divine Will versus Free Will

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by iBrian, Aug 27, 2003.

  1. metro_tramp

    metro_tramp Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    So.
    It seems
    we float down streams...

    It seems like a confusing little idea, this free-will. (but would we be discussing it if it weren't?!? :) )

    I agree with the 'divine will'/Ultimate tao/stream kinda thing..

    i think there is a part of us that is always in the stream. this might be caled the unconscious, or the higher self, or anything like that. But from personal experience, there seems to be a part of me (and by extension - us) which knows what its doing a lot better than 'i' do.

    There seems to be a 'mind-I' which we generally associate with for the most of the time. I reckon maybe that this starts of being free to look around the head, then when it gets bored with that, it starts to control our actions..
    That's where things go 'wrong'...
    The 'mind-I' with all its desires and fantasies and that ends up thrashing wildy against the current.
    Sometimes it can swim a little to the left or right and get what it wants pretty easily.
    But when it starts to try to go backwards, or cling to the side of the bank, or whatever analogy you want to use, it starts to find things a little hard.
    Ergo - suffering.
    When mind-i gets tired it takes a bit of a rest, goes with the flow for a bit, finds calm again. Then goes off suffering again. - what some might call the 'wheel of life' or samsara or whatever.
    As it starts to realise that all this swimming away is really hard, and that the real fun is found in going with the flow, it starts to let go bit by bit.
    The mind-i 'freely wills' to join the 'real I' that's really there in the stream.
    Intuition would be 'the feel for where Real-I wants to go'.
    The Real-I; our Buddha-nature, the part of us that is divine - the Godhead - the nameless name etc etc etc, is always there, but is patient and will let us do whatever we want for all eternity; it doesnt mind, cos it's already divine :cool:

    So something like: we can row the boat wherever we want, but it's a lot easier to let it follow the stream - maybe keep it in check every now and again - after a while you are having so much fun that you kinda forget about the boat, and it starts to dawn on you that maybe you were the boat in the first place. and after that (if you're real lucky!!) you might start to realise there was no boat and all there was was the stream... :D

    I dont think we could ever explain 'free will' - if you think about it, we cant even explain a stone falling - sure, we can Describe in as minute detail as possible What happens when the stone falls; but ask 'Why?' - 'well, because of gravity..' - 'why does gravity work?' - 'um.. well.. it just does..' :p

    And yeah, the stream isnt the stream of other people's words/worlds. - The Tao that can be named is not the Great Tao...


    By the way - i appologise if i sound at all pompous in my writings; no pomposity intended! I just put these funny thought into words, but i dont pretend they are in any way 'right'. or even 'wrong'.. they are what they are... :confused: in the words of the great Roy Walker - 'Just say what you see'
    xx
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    10
    No pomposity read - and welcome to CR, metro_tramp. :)
     
  3. metro_tramp

    metro_tramp Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    glad about the lack of pomposity...
    :)

    found this Interview with Ramesh Balsekar - an avaita vedanta teacher - about the whole free-will/determinism debate. pretty interesting!

    http://www.wie.org/j14/balsekar.asp?scr=1

    enjoy!
     
  4. mcedgy

    mcedgy Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2004
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Christianity, Judaism and apparently Islam, a perfect God is believed to have created the universe and created humans “In His image.” This implies that humans were created perfect. Yet humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God. How can imperfection come from perfection? Perfection in and of itself indicates the inability for imperfection. Furthermore, a perfect Creator cannot, without intent, create anything imperfect. Therefore, a perfect God who creates imperfect humans, without intent, is impossible.

    The Christian explanation of God’s “gift” of free will doesn’t answer the perfection implications. Christianity’s feeble attempt is; “God gave humans free will to enable them to experience emotions like love and happiness.” They say without free will humans would be little more than robots. However, this free will idea cannot be found in the Bible. (Reality is quite the contrary. “Thy will be done on earth as in heaven”, for example.) Free will seems to have come from thin air in response to statements made by the Greek philosopher Epicurus in the third or forth century regarding God’s inability to control evil. To paraphrase Epicurus, he stated that either ‘God can prevent evil and chooses not to, which makes him less than merciful or He can’t prevent evil, which makes him less than omnipotent.’ This was of course unacceptable to the Church, thus the birth of free will. Now the Church had a scapegoat. Humans used this free will “gift” to choose evil. Because of this theory all blame is placed on Adam’s “free will” decision. Humans ruined the perfect universe, not God. If God were omniscient wouldn’t everything have been predetermined anyway?

    Some people describe Agnostics as just noncommittal Atheists. I admit the term can be unnecessarily ambiguous. I describe myself as an Agnostic because I believe things outside the natural world are beyond comprehension. I do not know where I came from nor do I know where I am going. There is nothing ambiguous about that. I continue searching for a religion that characterizes God in a manner that is rational to me. I do have a strong opinion as to who God is not and an even stronger opinion as to what He should epitomize.

    I am surprised by the frequent question, “Do you believe in a personal God?” Of course God is personal. God is a personal experience of the heart and not an intellectual experience of the mind! I reduce the supernatural explanation of “God” to fundamentals easily comprehended by humankind: Choosing good over evil and right over wrong and having an unselfish ability to choose compassion, humanity, integrity, virtue, charity, humility, respect, and conscience. That is God and He resides within me! Now, you guess who His neighbor is? I decide which neighbor to associate with. That decision is the only character struggle or free will I’ve ever had and the only God or Satan I can relate to. mcedgy
     
  5. arielmessenger

    arielmessenger Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Free will vs. the Scripted Play

    "However, this free will idea cannot be found in the Bible."

    Contradicting most Judeo-Christian believers, the Bible does contain references showing free will to be illusionary. The world as "maya" or illusion was the world I experienced for three days of my original religious conversion experience which consisted of three days of non-stop synchronicity experiences, one right after the other and all of them adding up to a Scripted world arranged totally by that Entity or Power or Path we label "God".

    From the Bible: Psalm 139:16
    "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
    And in Your book they all were written,
    The days fashioned for me,
    When as yet there were none of them."
    If God is omnipotent and omniscient, God knows past, present, and future. If God is beyond our time-space continuum, God would have the ability to look up and down the time line of our universe. If what we think of as "reality" is an illusion, is in fact a magnificently orchestrated Play with the most amazing technological effects light years beyond our Hollywood's best productions, then to think we have "free will" is only our own delusion because we human beings are blind to the future. Our limits are not God's limits.
     
  6. arielmessenger

    arielmessenger Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    The experience of the world as illusion

    There is a movie that one can rent that gives an indication of the kind of shock I experienced when going through the three days of continuous synchronicity events that showed me in no uncertain terms that God had scripted my life as It had everyone's and the whole of Creation. The movie is called "The Thirteenth Floor" and is about virtual computer worlds created so convincingly that the people within the scripted worlds don't know they're lives have been generated as a sort of elaborate entertainment for people at higher technological levels. The movie protagonists find out their world is not real. Such is ours: the field of play where our souls learn those moral lessons fitting them for some sort of life beyond the grave in the World To Come.
     
  7. arielmessenger

    arielmessenger Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heavenly Intercessors

    In my gnostic solitary path religion of Biomystical Christianity, Heavenly Intercessors are acceptable for guiding one's spiritual journey. Earthly ones (men) are not acceptable.

    The appearances of Mary to many Catholics, and the clue given at Lourdes, "I am the Immaculate Conception" shows the spiritual origin of Mary as a principle Heavenly Intercessor. Kwan Yin, Goddess of Mercy, the Asian Heavenly Intercessor. The Lakota's Savior White Buffalo Calf Woman is also another such Heavenly Intercessor. Now She has appeared as Christ Josephine uniting Old and New World spiritual traditions together. See how this is happening now at [link removed]

    Angels, of course, have always been known as Heavenly Intercessors. The Angel Gabriel informed Mary of the coming of her Son. Gabriel guided Mohammed in his creation of the tenets of Islam. The Angel Ariel guides me in the creation of Biomystical Christianity. See [link removed]

    Other Spiritual Intercessors I recognize in my solitary Biomystical Christian path include the Spirit of Christ Jesus and the new Spirit of Christ Josephine.

    A Spirit of Elijah also runs deeply through my spiritual work and one can instantly tell the difference between Spirits from Above and Spirits from strong men who have gone before, e.g Elijah. Love, forgiveness, compassion, mark the spiritual instructions from Above. Judgment, harsh criticism, challenge, and finally condemnation mark the spiritual instruction from the spirit of Man. That's why it is so important to recognize a Godhead as containing the Feminine attributes of the Holy One of Heaven & Earth.

    Ariel, the Angel of Peace is the new Archangel of the Aquarian Aeon. Within the spiritual influence of the angel Ariel I detect the presence of EL Elyon, God Most High, and Salem, the Evening Star god as Peace worshipped at Jerusalem that seems to have started the whole Abrahamic movement.

    The Spirit of Christ--as first manifested around 2000 years ago in the teachings and sacrifice of the man Yeshu ben Pantera who became the historical core figure for the later purely spiritual Being, Jesus Christ, who was given Yeshu's history only vastly sanitized and sanctified.

    The Spirit of Christ Josephine: Within the Spirit of Christ Josephine BC can detect the presence of the Spirits of White Buffalo Calf Woman, Kwan Yin, and Ishtar-Venus. The Spirit of Christ Josephine manifests itself in my increasing spiritually-inspired economic development work and relationships with tribal people and people under oppression and in serious need of political salvation from genocidal policies of Western nations, e.g., the Palestinians, whose predicament mirrors the predicament Native Americans found themselves in during the last 500 years of European-American colonization and domination of the New World.


    Heavenly Intercessors are established facts of history. You may not believe in Them but They certainly pop up in history guiding human beings to special spiritual knowledge. What exactly is a "Burning Bush"? Anyone see those things around lately? Might they be Metaphors for spiritual architecture we human can't see? Archetypes are eternal and the Heavenly Messenger archetype is often seen in foundation religious visions, e.g. Gabriel announcing the birth of Jesus, e.g. Gabriel guiding Mohammad's spiritual knowledge, e.g. Mary sighted so many times She's about the strongest of all of Them. Ignor these Archetypes at your risk because if you don't acknowledge Their existence you are already under Their enthrallment and some of Them aren't so nice, e.g. the Moloch Problem with the Angel of Yahweh and the God of Abraham.
     
  8. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    10
    The trouble with the prophetic experience is that - at some point - you have to be able to step back and take a look at the wider picture. It's a constant learning process. Otherwise you end up charging blind into a tunnel because you've realised that there may be a connection between a couple of ideas - but fail to ever stop and look at the actual wider picture that can put them properly into context. It's a very sobering process, but it simply re-points the individual to a wider experience of learning.
     
  9. mcedgy

    mcedgy Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2004
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    If we have no free will but are guided strictly by divine will, well to use some paraphrased words of an old British musical group, “nothing really matters at all”. However, I think people ultimately choose what they believe and choose how they behave. That is the epitome of free will. I’m just convinced that free will had nothing to do with the “original sin” concept. In the Christian yarn, Devine will always trumps free will.

    Arielmessenger, I read you posts and visited your web site. First let me say that I am an Agnostic student of religion. I have been a “student” for about 35 years or so but I am still by far more an apprentice than a master. I am pleased that you seem to have found answers that make you happy. I do feel that all ideas should be explored but your postings here and your web site content reminds me of two things.

    First I am reminded of what I was doing while listening to that musical group those many, many years ago. There were times I was convinced that I could fly but it didn’t make me a bird. Also, even as an Agnostic, I am reminded of Matthew 7:15. Please accept this as offered and that is merely sharing my observation. No ill will intended Arielmessenger. I wish for peace to be with you and for peace to be with your spirit. McEdgy
     
  10. arielmessenger

    arielmessenger Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    "You will know them by their fruits."

    Hi Mcedgy,

    No, I don't take your doubts personally. When prophets are accepted without criticism will be a day in heaven, but not too likely on earth. And that's the way it should be, otherwise, people would be going off in all directions all the time. History offers the ultimate litmus test that must be done to establish true prophesy from false. Of course, I am convinced of the worth of my visions, especially the Biomystical interpretation of Yeshu-Jesus' sacrificial death that does away with what I call the "Tinkerbell belief system", i.e. one is told to believe in a preposterious story with "all your heart" and Tink, i.e., Jesus Lives, raised bodily from the dead. This Pauline doctrine has to go as it is just blatant mixing of pagan Mystery Religious ideas of dying/resurrection god-men with the Jewish Messiah tradition and makes no logical or spiritual sense as no one can experience God for another.

    "Even now the ax is laid to the trees." This is the role of the prophet. To "make straight the path to God", to clear the religious field of obstacles to establishing a spiritual relationship with the Holy One of Heaven & Earth.
     
  11. metro_tramp

    metro_tramp Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christian free will

    doesn't the fact that christianity if full of morality, and holds the concepts of judgement by God leading to Heaven and Hell Kinda insinuate that we have free will?
    If we have no free will, then its seems that being sent to Hell for the actions that God made us commit would be a pretty sick joke on God's behalf.
    And if we have no free will, what is the point of having the ten commandments and all that anyway?

    The way i see it, Free Will seems to be a necessary part of the most of Christian doctrine...
     
  12. IlluSionS667

    IlluSionS667 Eurasian spiritualist

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    I see no reason to assume that free will is anything but an illusion. Science leads to the conclusion that all events are caused by previous events. This includes thoughts and actions by humans.
     
  13. Avinash

    Avinash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like the illusion of having free will. I enjoy the imaginative freedom of taking decisions that shape my life. :)
     
  14. IlluSionS667

    IlluSionS667 Eurasian spiritualist

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's not because it is an illusion you should hate it, ya know?!
     
  15. Vapour

    Vapour Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    0
    well, science, especially quantum physics do show that certain things are indeed totally random.

    This doesn't square with omnicient God though.
     
  16. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,786
    Likes Received:
    45
    Namaste Vapour,

    thank you for the post.

    you are aboslutely correct...
     
  17. Avinash

    Avinash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    Namaskar Vapour,

    How much can the objective sciences fathom the Mind of God? These things only appear totally random to us, but they aren't to Him.
     
  18. IlluSionS667

    IlluSionS667 Eurasian spiritualist

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chaos theory has taught us that some behavior can not be predicted by man, because there's an infinitesimally large number of variables that need to be included in the calculation. This however does not mean that this behavior is not determined. This simply means that this behavior can not be determined by man because of it's complexity.

    I see no reason why the situation of the universe at time X1 can't always be determined by the situation of the universe at time X0, if you know all the necessary variables. But getting to know all the necessary variables is the problem, as there are too many of them.



    However, I agree that the idea of an omniscient God sounds absurd.
     
  19. Vapour

    Vapour Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, because God can perform miracle, he can go beyond law of physics. However, this in turn, this cause the problem with the concept of the mind which possess freewill, which was created by him.
     
  20. Vapour

    Vapour Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    0

    Ah, i'm not talking about chaos theory. I'm talking about quantum mechamics. When a radiactive decay occurs or exactly where a particular blip of light gets absorbed seem not to be determined by anything. Basically, these things just happen out of no determined specific cause. Einestein didn't think the universe couldn't be that way and famously said "God doesn't play dice"? It turned out otherwise.

    Oh, there is nothing self contradictory about God being omniscient as an idea. Problem is that this idea come in conflict with the idea of freewill.
     

Share This Page