Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Wil,

thank you for the post.

. Many Christian churches today have conflicts because of the actions of the 'intermediaries' , heck Buddha had to go sit under the tree for similar reasons. Do all these concepts have a shelf life?

whilst this seems to be correct, it actually is not.

Buddha Shakyamuni sat under the Bodhi Tree for a few very specific reasons. namely, that all the previous Buddhas have sat under specific trees, as will Maitreya when that arising takes place.

A local brahmin's daughter, Sujata, approached (after the asectics had left)and offered him a golden bowl filled with rice prepared in the essence of the milk of one thousand cows. Renewed in body and mind, his complexion brilliant as the lustre of burnished gold, the bodhisattva bathed and then walked to a nearby cave to continue his meditation. However, the earth shook and the voices of previous buddhas resounded in the air, telling him that this was not the place of his enlightenment and advising him to proceed to the nearby bodhi tree.

all Buddhas of the Three Times have sat on the Vajrasana, the Diamond Throne, when they Awaken in this world system. the precise species of tree differs for each of the Buddhas that Awaken in this world system. Buddha Shakyamuni sat under the pipal tree, a Ficus Religiosa.

this link could be interesting reading:

http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/holyplaces/001-bodhgaya.htm

metta,

~v

 

[rdwillia]

Ha yes, there would be my main problem, I went to a Krishna temple once after walking around for miles [I used to walk a lot], I have a little foot problem and when I took my boots of – oh dear! [not always a good idea eh!]. good luck with your church/temple.

Ew...

I thought this wrathful deity was fierce towards delusion and illusion! [I could not remember].

Yes, but don't get him confused with Vajrapani who is also known for this. 'Tis a little different with Shugden.

Its funny how much ‘sank in’, as I am very much like this with both myself and others – at times I probably seam quite confrontational, yet this is just my way of pushing myself and others towards advancement. The way I see it is that, one may set a philosophical challenge, then others may prove it or parts of it wrong, yet in the end we all win – as we have progressed! I must have deleted a thousand files quite ruthlessly in this vein.

Interesting psychological insight. This is probably very effective.

I definitely think I am too of the Mahayana school, although I don’t wish to be reborn here to help others, I believe one can help from the other side – at least as concerns contact with more advanced meditators, which would then filter down. Of course then we would be a deity ourselves! But I do think we can set ‘things’ [magical essences of truth and belief] in Ether, both in life and after, thus removing the deification. Ok so we could say god is he who writes ‘book with no name’ [so to say], thus there is not even a necessity for our involvement, that is if god intervenes – which I doubt. So perhaps there is a role in mediation between the highest [‘god’ or ‘primary mind of universal spirit’ etc], of wisdoms and minds that may not grasp such things.

This actually sounds pretty right on with the Mahayana teachings. At least the first part. The rest of it too though, if I alter some of the terms in my own mind. This is of course my own humble opinion.

Hey Vaj, is there any way we're misinterpreting the Maitreya prophecies? Could it possibly be soon that he is supposed to rise? I'm so tired of 'awaiting the fifth'. (Sorry, AT5, no pun intended). And does "Vajra" literally translated mean "lightning"?

A close friend of mine says, "Don't dis the path that got you here"

I couldn't agree with you more... Thanks for the post. Dorje Shugden and the associated drama aside, I am very thankful for the NKT for giving me some sort of access to Dharma.

Take care all!

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

@5

Took me a while to figure out who you were talking to there.

@5, I like it, Im gonna have to steal that.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Rdwillia,

thank you for the post.

Hey Vaj, is there any way we're misinterpreting the Maitreya prophecies? Could it possibly be soon that he is supposed to rise? I'm so tired of 'awaiting the fifth'. (Sorry, AT5, no pun intended).

sure, we must always bear this consideration in mind. that being said, there are things which certainly seem allegorical, such as the life span of humans and so forth. there are other things, however, which do not seem to be of the same class, such as the Chakravatin in India and the world being at peace and so forth.

unlike other traditions and the arrival of their Prophet, in this particular case, Buddha Maitreya will appear in a time of peace and prosperity for all beings. i think that we could all agree that this, at the very least, is not the case.

And does "Vajra" literally translated mean "lightning"?

Vajra is an interesting word and is modified by the prefix or suffix. generally speaking, it means "Indestructable Diamond" thus, you'll have a Vajrachopper which is weilded by Manjurshri which cuts through all delusion and so forth and Varjadhara (my namesake) who weilds the Diamond Thunderbolt of Indesctrutable Wisdom and that sort of thing

metta,

~v

 

[bdchit]

Good day.
I have just now read all the posts on this thread.

I have been a student with the NKT for 4 years. Earlier, I was an Introduction Leader for the Landmark Forum and a staffmember for Werner Erhard (a teacher of a curiously American Zen). I have also practiced Vipassana Meditation for about a year, and read many writings of Oriental Zen masters. I have been moved and enlightened by all of these.

All your posts have wisdom, and also ignorance--as we all do. Let's try to remember that there is no Dorje Shugdan, HH or Geshe or Rinpoche anyone, George W Bush, Siddhartha Gotama, Brahma, Krishna, Jesus, Thich Nhat Hanh, Mother Teresa, your mother, or you and I, outside the mind. If Buddha taught us anything of value (and he is the only one who taught us this) it is that nothing has inherent/true/objective existence outside the mind. In fact, there IS no "outside the mind."

Now, on a gorsser level, we function in this dream as individuals who regard a Dorje Shugdan, a Dalai Lama, and a Kelsanag Gyatso [who is now being spoken of--still not by himself--as living Je Tsonghkhapa (yet another spelling of that title)]

Since it is all mind, we get to say whether Dorje Shugdan et al, are evil, good, right, wrong, corrupt, etc. None of which I find are very empowering notions. Myself, I have trouble with some of GKG's "logical" proofs. (Maybe they are also what we have left of Shakyamuni's proofs, but I have as much trouble with post-Shakyamuni writings as I do with translations of the New Testament.)

But I notice that studying with my Beloved Teachers in the NKT--perhaps y'all find this with your Teachers--is resulting in this ol' ex-New York Jew, or JuBu, learning patience, kindness, and Faith, none of which came with the infant formula at the A&P supermarket in East Flatbush where I was raised.

As a guy with a BA in Philosophy, too, I recall the Utilitarian test for truth: It's true if it works. My teachers say that "correct view" is what produces happiness (and the converse). 'SGood enough for me. Why study or work at anything if it doesn't produce happiness?

So to me, Dorje Shugdan is a beneficial presence in my life because I impute that. I don't believe that I ought to use him to protect sangha of my lineage only. After all, y'all don't exist inherently either. In "my dream," DS is a good guy, GKG is a great beneficial presence, and the deliverer of Je Tsonghkhapa's teachings to these jaded ears, HH is a powerful, devoted theocrat--who has rejected his Spiritual Guide (Trijang Rinpoche)'s dharma protector, and I have compassion for his probable conflict over that, Goerge W Bush is a deeply deluded nationalist, driven--like all of us--by poisonous self-cherishing, and I am probably the only one here who isn't a Buddha, so thank you all for apearing here until I finally get it.

The only mind I can know and manage (and that not always) is mine. I hereby say that I am going to be kinder than I need to, try to help others fulfill harmless samsaric wishes, and become a Buddha as quickly as I can, to free every beloved living being (BLB) from this horrible prison of samsara.

Who's a-comin' with me?

Bdchita in the USA

 

[bdchit]

PS from BDCHITA--Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden

I would appreciate correspondence to my personal emnail address: bdchita@yahoo.com.
Thank you.

 

[samabudhi]

Re: PS from BDCHITA--Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden

Why study or work at anything if it doesn't produce happiness?

If we were completely convinced of what the causes of happiness are we wouldn't be here going round in circles. Which is what Lamas are for, to help us out of this mess and it's why devotion to the Lama is at the head of the Tibetan Traditions. Geshe has gone against this hierarchy. Follow him if you will, but by virtue, or rather vice, of his own example, he can't offer devotion to the guru as a method of realisation, which unfortunately is at the head of the tradition he purports. The importance of lineages cannot be overemphasised when speaking about Tibetan Buddhism. And yes, you don't have to follow a lineage or have a guru, ultimately, to become enlightened, but that's how it works in Vajrayana, so tough cookies!

So to me, Dorje Shugdan is a beneficial presence in my life because I impute that.

And everyone else thinks otherwise. If all is empty, then why don't you just make it easier for yourself in conventional reality and respect the higher authority. Clinging to self is the only thing stopping you. And if it didn't bother you that much, then you wouldn't be here proselytising.

It's great that you're developing patience, kindness and faith, and no-one said Geshe is not doing great things, but think in terms of the bigger picture, and if you are not ready for the bigger picture, then fine, just leave it alone. Pema Chodron says 'start where you are'. No point getting scrawled up in politics. Just not worth it.

 

[bdchit]

Re: PS from BDCHITA--Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden

I appreciate your comments, Sambudhi. It is very kind of you to help me.

[QUOTE ...Lamas are ...to help us out of this mess and it's why devotion to the Lama is at the head of the Tibetan Traditions. Geshe has gone against this hierarchy.

Have you studied with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, that you say this? Or have you simply been listening to detractors? He's not doing that at all. He is totally devoted to his spiritual guide--Trijang Rinpoche-- and he constantly adjures his students to rely on one's spiritual guide..

Follow him if you will, but by virtue, or rather vice, of his own example, he can't offer devotion to the guru as a method of realisation, which unfortunately is at the head of the tradition he purports. On the contrary, Geshela stresses Guru Yoga constantly. Where are you getting your information about his teachings? The importance of lineages cannot be overemphasised when speaking about Tibetan Buddhism. You are right. The NKT traces an unbroken lineage back to Je Tsonghkhapa, further back to Atisha, and further back to Buddha Shakyamuni.

And everyone else thinks otherwise. If all is empty, then why don't you just make it easier for yourself in conventional reality and respect the higher authority. Thank you for your concern. It is already easy for me, with the wonderful teachers I have had. And I have never been in conflict with anyone over Dorje Shugdan, except when I entered into this fray. Perhaps that was unwise.

By "the higher authority" do you mean the DL? He is not my, or Geshe Kelsang's, higher authority. Geshela was sent to England by Trijang Rinpoche to teach dhrama to Westerners.

Clinging to self is the only thing stopping you. And if it didn't bother you that much, then you wouldn't be here proselytising. I did not think I was proselytising, becuase I don't think NKT is superior to other Buddhist teachings...simply karmically attractive to me. But I have been proselytising all my life, as my mother pointed out to me the other day, so I will look at this more deeply. Thank you. Very kind of you.

It's great that you're developing patience, kindness and faith, and no-one said Geshe is not doing great things, but think in terms of the bigger picture, and if you are not ready for the bigger picture, then fine, just leave it alone. If by the "bigger picture" you mean becoming a Buddha in this lifetime to benefit all ohters, that is very much what I am interested in. And in Geshe Kelsang's teachings I have found an English-speaking, Westerner-friendly path (a path being something that actually leads from here to there systematically, like a walking or driring path) that seems to lead there. We shall see. I hope yours takes you there immediately.

No point getting scrawled up in politics. Just not worth it. Exactly. One thing that initially drew me to Geshe Kelsang is his refusal to color his teachings with Tibetan or any politics. For many years I have been aware that enlightenment--even happiness--is not available on the political level of life.[/QUOTE]

May any small merit I have collected through this public discussion serve to enlighten all beings right now, and end samsara forever.

 

[bdchit]

PS from BDCHIT

Further, NKT is not Tibetan Buddhism. Gesje Kelsang was raised and educated in Tibet, but he is the only Tibetan in NKT. All the teachings and pujas are in English, there are pujas unknown in TIbet, and after Geshela dies, the only thing resembling Tibetan Buddhism will be the veneration of past Tibetan Geshes such as Kelsang Gyatso, Trijang, Tsonghkhapa, Lengri Trangpa, Checkawa, et al., and the red-and-gold robes.

Buddha taught in India, of course, and there is now Buddhism that different cultures have adapted and transmuted to there own languages and cultures. NKT is another phenomenon like that.

 

[samabudhi]

Re: PS from BDCHIT

By "the higher authority" do you mean the DL? He is not my, or Geshe Kelsang's, higher authority. Geshela was sent to England by Trijang Rinpoche to teach dhrama to Westerners.

Indeed!

Further, NKT is not Tibetan Buddhism. Gesje Kelsang was raised and educated in Tibet, but he is the only Tibetan in NKT. All the teachings and pujas are in English, there are pujas unknown in TIbet, and after Geshela dies, the only thing resembling Tibetan Buddhism will be the veneration of past Tibetan Geshes such as Kelsang Gyatso, Trijang, Tsonghkhapa, Lengri Trangpa, Checkawa, et al., and the red-and-gold robes.

Well this is the problem isn't it. It's an entire lineage passed down by one man, who isn't supported by the lineage he schismed from. And when he goes, it'll be a whole lot of westerners propitiating a protector they really know nothing about. Where is Kelsang's support? Why does he find it so important to do this practice when it's clearly harmful to Buddha Dharma?

Holding so tight, just let go.

 

[Pathless]

Holding so tight, just let go.

Holding tight? Who?

Arrogance ("And everyone else thinks otherwise") and antagonsim ("Geshe has gone against this hierarchy. Follow him if you will, but by virtue, or rather vice, of his own example, he can't offer devotion to the guru as a method of realisation, which unfortunately is at the head of the tradition he purports..." etc) are sooooo unbuddhist.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Samabhudi,

How can it be harmful to the Buddha Dharma to teach it?

Although I personally do not follow Geshe Kelsang or the NKT, I have attended a few classes and pujas. In fact it was the NKT who taught me about Buddhism in the first place.

Buddhism is very difficult to find in the west. You can read books all you want but there is no real substitute for being able to actually speak to a Buddhist monk. This is what the NKT offered me, and offer so many more people in Western Europe and America.

It's an entire lineage passed down by one man, who isn't supported by the lineage he schismed from.

What makes you think he has schismed from his lineage? He disagrees with the DL, yes, but the DL is not and has never been a part of the Kadampa tradition, he is part of the Gelug school (and not actually it's head).


I wonder, Samabhudi, do you think that Buddhism should be confined to the far east forever? If a Tibetan Geshe comes to the west to teach, why is that bad?

Finally, I must say that the tone of your messages to bdchit seems both dismissive and arrogant, which is not really in the spirit of this site.

Peace
ATF

 

[samabudhi]

Holding tight? Who?

People who want to do a deprecated practice. They don't have to do it, it's like Protestants marching through Catholic neighbourhoods. Just looking for a fight.
If Geshe taught it secretly, that might be a different story.

Could you really say what Buddhist is? In my miserable experience, it's never as simple as I thought, particularly in Tantra.

How can it be harmful to the Buddha Dharma to teach it?

Although I personally do not follow Geshe Kelsang or the NKT, I have attended a few classes and pujas. In fact it was the NKT who taught me about Buddhism in the first place.

Buddhism is very difficult to find in the west. You can read books all you want but there is no real substitute for being able to actually speak to a Buddhist monk. This is what the NKT offered me, and offer so many more people in Western Europe and America.

Tibetan Buddhism is an extremely complicated soteriology, by far the most involved I have encountered. It's just not as simple as good & bad. As I said earlier I'm sure he's done a lot of good, but that good karma doesn't wipe out this bad karma.
If Geshe thinks it's simply about providing teachings, then I suggest he doesn't fully comprehend his own tradition. (how's that for arrogance ) But seriously, there are bigger forces at work here. We would do well to listen to the elders.

What makes you think he has schismed from his lineage? He disagrees with the DL, yes, but the DL is not and has never been a part of the Kadampa tradition, he is part of the Gelug school (and not actually it's head).

It's the New Kadampa tradition, a bit different.

I wonder, Samabhudi, do you think that Buddhism should be confined to the far east forever? If a Tibetan Geshe comes to the west to teach, why is that bad?

Finally, I must say that the tone of your messages to bdchit seems both dismissive and arrogant, which is not really in the spirit of this site.

It's not bad. My lineage is Karma Kagyu, which started in the West with two Rinpoches, Chogyam Trungpa and Dr Akong Tulku. But they have the support of the Karmapa and they're deeply rooted in their tradition, despite their different approaches to teaching. Akong Tulku is very traditional and Trungpa was quite the renegade, yet they have the support of their lineages, in contrast to Gyatso.

An example:
I was talking to my boss about vegetarianism. He exclaims he's a militant vegetarian, and we discuss the pros and cons. I say even eating plants, you are supporting the killing of thousands of insects etc who are slaughtered under tractors, with insecticide etc. He says that, yes, it is impossible to be fully free from this, but at least there is LESS blood on his hands.

Now I don't agree with this. That is to say, I don't have anything wrong with being vegetarian, but as far as the end result is concerned, vegetarianism is not a solution to the problem of sentient beings suffering. I want to vanquish the ROOT of the problem. Nothing less will do. I've been torturing, raping, killing, dismembering, and devouring every other sentient being, and them me and each other, since beginningless time - what good does it do trying to 'slow down' the suffering, when the tally is at infinity anyway. The only option is the complete cessation of suffering.

My point is that Geshe may be helping in certain ways, and to you or I it would seem to be the right thing, but we don't see the bigger picture. HH and many high up Lamas have agreed that this is not a beneficial practice for this time and place - perhaps it was some time ago in Tibet?

(Look, nothing annoys me more than someone telling me I can't do Vajrayogini practice cause I hadn't had an empowerment. But I have to accept it. There's no way round it, it's how Vajrayana works. If you want, you can read all about Samabudhi versus E-Sangha on the subject of the necessity of a guru in the Tibetan Traditions, but ultimately, to follow Tibetan Buddhism, the guru is absolutely essential. And coming from South Africa where gurus just don't exist, I'm painfully aware of this. So I know how ya feel!)

 

[bdchit]

I see that indeed it was unwise for me to enter this fray. I spent many years trying to be right, proving that my point of view is superior. Now I prefer to adopt the mantra of my beloved (NKT) ordained teacher, Kelsang Gomlam, a former Hospice nurse and an American: "My mind is mistaken and my opinions are unreliable."

And, on the chance that you, Sambudhi, may be a Buddha (since the only one I know for sure isn't, is writing this), thank you for the effort you have put into educating me. I am certain that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has not abandoned his lineage. The DL is not senior to him. The Wisdom and Method lineage--from Buddha Shakyamuni, through Atisha (the first Kadampa) to Je Tsonghapa (the first of the "new" Kadampas), Je Phabongka, Trijang Rinpoche, and now Kelsang Gyatso, seems to be intact.

I have wondered about the DL abandoning the dharmapala of his own Spiritual Guide, Trijang Rinpoche. But that is his business, not mine, and I have compassion for him, never criticism. He is doing his best, inside his Karmic Reality.

The official Tibetan-govt-in-exile site says that Je Phabongka newly enhanced the importance of Dorje Shugden, during the 20th century, and emphasized Vajrayogini, about whom Je Tsonghkhapa did not write much...and that the Yellow Book caused the DL to rightly doubt Shugden. How much of that is true and how much is self-serving government drivel, I do not know. I am not partisan or sectarianism. I am an anarchist, when I bother to think about politics, which isn't often.

I know that what Geshela teaches works. He may be annoying the conservative, traditionalist authorities, but so did Buddha Shakyamuni. So do I. I admire both Geshela and Shakyamuni; I have learned a great deal about how to treat people kindly from them both, and received the precious teachings on Emptiness from them both. I cannot ask for anything more.

I am withdrawing from the fray, now. Please forgive me if I stumbled into the wrong arena. In future, any of you are welcome to contact me at bdchita@yahoo.com.

Your friend,
E

May world leaders gain wisdom, may countries all be allies, may the "nuclear bomb of love" explode in our midst, may Vajrayogini send an enlightened woman to press her warm lips and body to mine without either of us succumbing to self-cherishing, and may samsara then end in the blink of an eye.

 

[samabudhi]

Tempered thin or grown in weight, it's hard to see a different fate. Watch yourself, not otherself, and surely you will grin. For as you leave this testing ground you only miss the point, that self is other not which depends the fate, of which depends no other.

 

[bdchit]

I came back to read Pathless's post, and saw your rap lyric, Sam. Cool!
Bdchita

 

[friendoftheworld]

About two years ago, I received a teaching from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in which he said: 'In the future people will become very critical of me and my books. When this happens, don't get angry with them and don't argue. Tell them they are welcome to write better books if they are able.'

Some people are now being very critical of Geshe Kelsang even though he is working tirelessly to benefit every living being. Please don't be critical of him. If you are from another tradition, practice your own tradition and respect other traditions.

 

[samabudhi]

The highest dharma is based on the highest view, which takes precedence over any level of intention.

'In the future people will become very critical of me and my books.

"O Atula! Indeed, this is an ancient practice, not one only of today: they blame those who remain silent, they blame those who speak much, they blame those who speak in moderation. There is none in the world who is not blamed.

There never was, there never will be, nor is there now, a person who is wholly blamed or wholly praised."

- Kodhavagga sutta

When this happens, don't get angry with them and don't argue. Tell them they are welcome to write better books if they are able.'

If they are able?
Haughtiness is no substitute for rage.

 

[rdwillia]

Although there is room for critical opinions, general tolerance and mutual respect of some degree is required, and especially the acceptance that other people can hold differing views.

Perhaps those NKT practicioners who are obviously encountering some difficulties here should check out www.AwakenYourself.org. It is a new unofficial NKT site and forum by members for members. Perhaps we can come here for qustions about other traditions if we keep it secret that we're NKT so that we don't get bullied? Or flaunt it so that we can work on our patience and understanding of difficult beings.

All I will say is that taking away someone's faith creates one messy load of negative karma. That being said, I leave you in the words of the great Geshe Langri Tangpa:

"Even if someone I have helped
and of whom I had great hopes
nevertheless harms me for no reason,
may I see him as my holy spiritual guide."

With love,

~rdwillia

 

[samabudhi]

All I will say is that taking away someone's faith creates one messy load of negative karma.

Unless you practise Dharma according to the Dharma,
Dharma itself will become the cause of lower rebirth.
- Gampopa

The nature of the enlightened mind is beyond our understanding. But with learning, contemplation, debate and meditation, we're bound to achieve it.