Septegram
New Member
Who's Wrong?
No, I assume the other is wrong because zie assumes I am wrong
Septegram
emong said:
No, I assume the other is wrong because zie assumes I am wrong
Septegram
Spiritual fascism
- Thread starter foundationist.org
- Start date
Fern
Member
Equality not Superiority
I was told daily as a child "The ground is level at the foot of the cross, you are no better than they and they are no better than you". I often challenge those who state they are superior to me to live up to this message - sometimes they do, sometimes they don't - but they almost always think about it.
I don't know a lot about other faith traditions, but my guess is that there is something in them all which says something similar to the saying my mother taught me as a child. I'm willing to bet that God - whoever you see the deity as - loves each and every one of us, equally, For some reason, this thought or belief seems to elude us quite frequently, hence, we become sure that God loves us more because we are right - or more right than 'those' people... A sad commentary on human kind.
Peace to all,
Fern
foundationist.org said:
I was told daily as a child "The ground is level at the foot of the cross, you are no better than they and they are no better than you". I often challenge those who state they are superior to me to live up to this message - sometimes they do, sometimes they don't - but they almost always think about it.
I don't know a lot about other faith traditions, but my guess is that there is something in them all which says something similar to the saying my mother taught me as a child. I'm willing to bet that God - whoever you see the deity as - loves each and every one of us, equally, For some reason, this thought or belief seems to elude us quite frequently, hence, we become sure that God loves us more because we are right - or more right than 'those' people... A sad commentary on human kind.
Peace to all,
Fern
N
Norgenen
Guest
Those who have strong spiritual ideas, usually also have the idea of being above and outside the civilization. At some level, in some form. They believe this is necessary for knowing 'the spiritual'. I think it is possible to retain a mutual respect for others, and see the individual who searches, as above and elevated.
When this idea is questioned; the idea of being above civilization, it does not change the original idea. The idea remains, throughout the centuries. Calling this 'spiritual fascism', is mundane and superficial. It is only scratching the surface.
At the center of this idea, is the desire for the individual to transcend, and rise above. And to attain Knowledge and Wisdom; to find the Truth itself.
When this idea is questioned; the idea of being above civilization, it does not change the original idea. The idea remains, throughout the centuries. Calling this 'spiritual fascism', is mundane and superficial. It is only scratching the surface.
At the center of this idea, is the desire for the individual to transcend, and rise above. And to attain Knowledge and Wisdom; to find the Truth itself.
JJM
Well-Known Member
All human beings sin. Those who don't sin allot in the normal sense( stealing, antagonizing, mocking, ext.) often sin but they don't see it. So, they think that they never do that and rather than trying to calmly change though around them they shun and look down upon others. Those are the people they should be talking to those who sin often. While I think it is possible for someone to be a better person than another I don't think that either is worth more to God and is more worthy of salvation one is just closer to being there and that person needs to realize that or they are not any more important than the other person. I think that assuming that someone will go to hell is wrong in itself.
____________________________________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates
____________________________________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates
Anzac
Resident Anarchist
Surely as God as the creator and with man possessing free will any form of hierarchical Church or organization is by definiton spiritual fascism? Aren't the imposing THEIR beliefs rather than those of their religion as their is often discussion about what a deity really meant by doing such and such an action. By having a structured religion where you look up to another you are having your spirituality quashed and hampered?
If you truly show and care as a deity expects then why not only see them as the highest and true rank of authority rather than another personal of equal power with the same free will?
If you truly show and care as a deity expects then why not only see them as the highest and true rank of authority rather than another personal of equal power with the same free will?
LittleLotus
Member
Their needs to be more respect and less ignorence in the world.
My philosophy is that everyone needs to find their own path, and let people live their lives the way they want to.
My philosophy is that everyone needs to find their own path, and let people live their lives the way they want to.
Zdrastvuitsye, hola, shalom, salaam, Dia dhuit, namastar ji, hej, konnichiwa, squeak, meow, :wave: Norgenen.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
Susma Rio Sep
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 828
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
Go, sin in private.
JJM writes:
Whether you sin a lot or not, my recommendation to all sinners is to go into the privacy of your room and sin in solitude.
If you have to sin with another, get his consent first; then both of you repair to the privacy of a room and sin in solitude.
Make sure also that your sins don't bring about any adverse repercussions on others; take the time and trouble to prevent any such adverse repercussions on others.
If you would sin in public, then make sure that you don't get in trouble with the partrolman on the beat; and others would take no offense or notice and report you to the patrolman.
Susma Rio Sep
JJM writes:
Whether you sin a lot or not, my recommendation to all sinners is to go into the privacy of your room and sin in solitude.
If you have to sin with another, get his consent first; then both of you repair to the privacy of a room and sin in solitude.
Make sure also that your sins don't bring about any adverse repercussions on others; take the time and trouble to prevent any such adverse repercussions on others.
If you would sin in public, then make sure that you don't get in trouble with the partrolman on the beat; and others would take no offense or notice and report you to the patrolman.
Susma Rio Sep
JJM
Well-Known Member
Susma Rio Sep said:
I ask in the most respectful way possible. Why on earth would any one do something they think is wrong with complete knowledge of what they are doing. I understand that some people have physical needs that can drive them to sin (example: heroine addict robbing a store for money) or not realizing you did it until later. (Example: mocking some one without realizing it and then seeing what you had done) but to plan and set a time to do and in a complete right state of mind doesn't make any sense to me. Why would some one do this? Could you really think it bad that bad?
[b said:
I'm confused at this. Why would the fact that a church has a hierarchy make it impose it's beliefs on some one more than one that doesn‘t? Though do not all churches have some sort of hierarchy. Also, Is not anyone stating their opinion trying to impose it on others? Could you elaborate?
__________________________________________________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates
DrChaos
Member
We all judge everyone and sin all the time. I know you all do to, thinking to yourself "How can he/she do that?", it is almost impossible. Also, Susma, I agree with JJM in not understanding how you "plan" sin, most the time I sin, I'm not aware until well after. I have a couple of questions:
1)Is every sin as bad as the next (i.e. killing and stealing are equally bad)
2)If #1 is true, which I think it is (we are all the same in God's eyes), does that mean that concious sins are the same as unconcious ones?
I have a hard time with that. But, I guess concious sinners have a "harder" time being forgiven (most of the time) because they did the sin on purpose, so they wouldn't be as remorseful.
1)Is every sin as bad as the next (i.e. killing and stealing are equally bad)
2)If #1 is true, which I think it is (we are all the same in God's eyes), does that mean that concious sins are the same as unconcious ones?
I have a hard time with that. But, I guess concious sinners have a "harder" time being forgiven (most of the time) because they did the sin on purpose, so they wouldn't be as remorseful.
Susma Rio Sep
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 828
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
Sins and sins
JJM and DrC, you are both wondering how a person can sin knowingly and deliberately, and why people can judge others to be sinning?
First, do read again my post on sinning in the privacy and solitude of your room alone, or with someone if you have a partner. Ponder every word and sentence, and you might savor my naughty but also practical and safe advice, for people to sin but not to get in trouble with the law. God forgives, but not the law.
Now, about how people can sin knowlingly, deliberately, wilfully: in the Catholic Church, if it's not done that way, it ain't no sin. It's a mistake.
For example, you are hunting and shoot someone behind a bush which you think to be an animal; no that ain't no sin of murder or manslaughter, it's a mistake. But you could be guilty of negligence.
To realize that you have committed a sin after the deed is not to have sinned in that deed. Just be careful not to do the same material deed again, now that you know. Is that possible? Sure, didn't Jacob sleep with the wrong sister.
About judging others in sin. I think even our children are judging us all the time. We should judge each other, and thank God, that for His grace we would also be in sin. Very often our virtue is intact owing to the lack of temptations, spell that 'opportunities.'
Susma Rio Sep
JJM and DrC, you are both wondering how a person can sin knowingly and deliberately, and why people can judge others to be sinning?
First, do read again my post on sinning in the privacy and solitude of your room alone, or with someone if you have a partner. Ponder every word and sentence, and you might savor my naughty but also practical and safe advice, for people to sin but not to get in trouble with the law. God forgives, but not the law.
Now, about how people can sin knowlingly, deliberately, wilfully: in the Catholic Church, if it's not done that way, it ain't no sin. It's a mistake.
For example, you are hunting and shoot someone behind a bush which you think to be an animal; no that ain't no sin of murder or manslaughter, it's a mistake. But you could be guilty of negligence.
To realize that you have committed a sin after the deed is not to have sinned in that deed. Just be careful not to do the same material deed again, now that you know. Is that possible? Sure, didn't Jacob sleep with the wrong sister.
About judging others in sin. I think even our children are judging us all the time. We should judge each other, and thank God, that for His grace we would also be in sin. Very often our virtue is intact owing to the lack of temptations, spell that 'opportunities.'
Susma Rio Sep
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste all,
from what i've come to understand, the word "sin" means "missing the mark". i've had it explained to me that this means to indicate that we are not aligning our will with Gods will.
needless to say, this entire concept is build upon a theological model that many people do not subscribe to which is why i don't understand phrases like "everyone sins". i just don't grasp the significance of this statement when it could be referring to someone that does not have a belief in the Deity to which this is allegedly affronting.
if someone could explain this to me, i'd be greatful.
from what i've come to understand, the word "sin" means "missing the mark". i've had it explained to me that this means to indicate that we are not aligning our will with Gods will.
needless to say, this entire concept is build upon a theological model that many people do not subscribe to which is why i don't understand phrases like "everyone sins". i just don't grasp the significance of this statement when it could be referring to someone that does not have a belief in the Deity to which this is allegedly affronting.
if someone could explain this to me, i'd be greatful.
Susma Rio Sep
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 828
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
Sin = injustice
Even people who don't believe in God and in Jesus Christ also call out the name of God as in "MY GOD!", and "JESUS CHRIST!". Such expressions are testimonies in effect to the ingrained belief in God from tradition and habit.
"Everyone sins" even guys who don't believe in God; because in English you can sin against your brother or fellow men. In which case 'sin' is an injustice to any fellow man. What about that phrase: "to sin against God and man"? People say that of others even though they know that these latters don't believe in God.
What about in Buddhism, is there the concept of sin. If a Buddhist sleeps with his brother's wife, is that a sin, or what? I think even atheists would still use the word 'sin', in this context from tradition and habit.
Susma Rio Sep
Vajradhara said:
Even people who don't believe in God and in Jesus Christ also call out the name of God as in "MY GOD!", and "JESUS CHRIST!". Such expressions are testimonies in effect to the ingrained belief in God from tradition and habit.
"Everyone sins" even guys who don't believe in God; because in English you can sin against your brother or fellow men. In which case 'sin' is an injustice to any fellow man. What about that phrase: "to sin against God and man"? People say that of others even though they know that these latters don't believe in God.
What about in Buddhism, is there the concept of sin. If a Buddhist sleeps with his brother's wife, is that a sin, or what? I think even atheists would still use the word 'sin', in this context from tradition and habit.
Susma Rio Sep
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste Su,
thank you for the post.
some people do this, yes. not all people do this and it is a mistake to believe that they do. i never call out "My God" or "Jesus Christ"... though i will frequently use those words in my day to day life.
what about the phrase? it seems to only be applicable with regards to a theology that has support for such a thing. without which, i would highly doubt that such a thing would ever be said.
in any event... using the definition of Sin as "missing the mark", i do not see how a breech of civil law is a "sin".
thank you for the post.
Susma Rio Sep said:
some people do this, yes. not all people do this and it is a mistake to believe that they do. i never call out "My God" or "Jesus Christ"... though i will frequently use those words in my day to day life.
what about the phrase? it seems to only be applicable with regards to a theology that has support for such a thing. without which, i would highly doubt that such a thing would ever be said.
in any event... using the definition of Sin as "missing the mark", i do not see how a breech of civil law is a "sin".
JJM
Well-Known Member
Vajradhara said:
Sinning (at least in the catholic sense) is "willfully doing something we know is wrong." Not "missing the mark." But I think that this statement is basically saying more that if you didn't realize what you where doing was wrong you don't have to feel bad about it just don't do it again. Not that it isn't actually a sin.But if you know something is wrong and you still do it out of reaction (unconscious) it is still a sin. Now Sumsa's hunting accident isn't a sin because you never meant to shoot them. But insulting some one and only catching yourself after you do it is still a sin because you did mean to insult them and that I believe is what Drchaos is referring to. This is where the concept that everyone sins come into play because no man is perfect. Every one screws up every once and a while. It is referring to Jesus saying "you who are innocent throw the first stone." (Or something along those lines.) Only when a person enters heaven are they free from this. As for if a person who does not believe in God can sin. Well if they have heard of God and choose not to believe then yes they are because even though you don't believe they "know", in a sense, that what they are doing is wrong. Even though they don’t believe it is.
However once you die you are informed of all things that are wrong so even if you didn't know they where wrong on earth you can not enter heaven without following those rules. (Note: this is my opinion now not one sanctioned by any church)
Sinning (at least in the catholic sense) is "willfully doing something we know is wrong." Not "missing the mark." But I think that this statement is basically saying more that if you didn't realize what you where doing was wrong you don't have to feel bad about it just don't do it again. But if you know something is wrong and you still do it out of reaction (unconscious) it is still a sin. Now Sumsa's hunting accident isn't a sin because you never meant to shoot them. But insulting some one and only catching yourself after you do it is still a sin because you did mean to insult them and that I believe is what Drchaos is referring to. This is where the concept that everyone sins come into play because no man is perfect. Every one screws up every once and a while. It is referring to Jesus saying "you who are innocent throw the first stone." (Or something along those lines.) Only when a person enters heaven are they free from this. As for if a person who does not believe in God can sin. Well if they have heard of God and choose not to believe then yes they are because even thought you don't believe they "know", in a sense, that what they are doing is wrong. Even though they don’t believe it is.
However once you die you are informed of all things that are wrong so even if you didn't know they where wrong on earth you can not enter heaven without following those rules. (Note: this is my opinion now not one sanctioned by any church)
As for Drchoas's first question the Catholic Church believes that there are mortal sins and nonmortal (can't remember the word ). Any way though most Protestant religions (yes this means GCC) Believe that all sins are of equal importance. My personal opinion is that while on earth some sins are worse than others but when asked to stop all sins to enter heaven the smallest is just as important as any other. As for you first part:
In reference to "'How can he/she do that?'" I don't think that is a sin. 0part of Christianity is showing others their faults and helping them work through them the problem accurse when people look down on others and think of them as less than people. And also when they don't believe that they have faults.
In reference to "'How can he/she do that?'" I don't think that is a sin. 0part of Christianity is showing others their faults and helping them work through them the problem accurse when people look down on others and think of them as less than people. And also when they don't believe that they have faults.[b said:
Zenda71
Well-Known Member
Quick correction ... Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism is by Chogyam Trunpa Rinpoche.
As for money versus God ... I'll take the money so I can give it away to those who need it! (OK, and maybe buy a house with a bigger yard for my dogs ... )
As for money versus God ... I'll take the money so I can give it away to those who need it! (OK, and maybe buy a house with a bigger yard for my dogs ... )
Zenda71
Well-Known Member
Whoops! Wrong thread ... sorry ...
Vajradhara
One of Many
LOL... thank you for that correction... hehe... oh well... sometimes i can't remember who wrote whatZenda71 said:
VirtuousValkyrie
A Seeker
Dave the Web said:
YES! I totally agree with you!! I am going through a year of "spiritual seeking" of sorts because I was totally abandoned by my so called "church". The same ones that said they "love people and care for them like Christ does.." HYPOCRISY!!! I have looked back on my 3 years in that church and I realized how unloving and judgemental I was. Here were some things I believed: all gay people were going to hell and they could help they had feelings for the same sex, anything that was not Christian was from the devil and not good... etc etc.. Now looking back I am like, oh my gosh.. how closed-minded could I be??? Are these thoughts what Jesus would want me to think?? No! He would want me to love and accept gay people, to accept other people's religions, and to leave judgement to God. Jesus taught us not to judge others, but to instead look at ourselves first (Matthew 7:1-5). I am glad I am finally taking that to heart.
opinions
Also, Is not anyone stating their opinion trying to impose it on others? Could you elaborate?
From Louis...
Let me elaborate...
I sometimes state opinions here, but always point out
that they are only the WAY THINGS APPEAR from my
position as an impartial obsever .
My purpose is not to impose my ideas on others or
set myself up as knowing more than they do - just the
opposite - I know very little about the way believers
think and only want to provoke a response - get
people to look closer at their own ideas and maybe
find a way to explain them to me.
Also, Is not anyone stating their opinion trying to impose it on others? Could you elaborate?
From Louis...
Let me elaborate...
I sometimes state opinions here, but always point out
that they are only the WAY THINGS APPEAR from my
position as an impartial obsever .
My purpose is not to impose my ideas on others or
set myself up as knowing more than they do - just the
opposite - I know very little about the way believers
think and only want to provoke a response - get
people to look closer at their own ideas and maybe
find a way to explain them to me.