Court case against Christianity

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by wizanda, Sep 11, 2005.

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  1. wizanda

    wizanda Member

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    Thankz, for your reply also, I like your perspective.



    I do hear where you are coming from and yes, I do see that human nature is also involved.

    The thing is though, according to the contradictions, they re-wrote Christianity and so stopped people getting in to heaven. Also many people, yet not all stop at being under Christ, yet not following his example. Imagine if people after hearing that through a man’s faith in God he could walk on water, heal the sick, and move mountains, as Christ did. He also said we can do more then he did, through faith!

    If you hear an inspiring story doesn’t it inspire you to do more? Just as an example ‘when you watched Rocky and he ran up the stairs with the music, don’t you want to train also?

    Well this is has been stopped in its tracks, imagine if someone super glued the stairs so Rocky got stuck half way up? Would it spoil it for you?

    Where as Christ said he was a prophet and said what he achieved was attainable by us.

    Instead Paul was a murdering liar to begin with and then he changed, to someone who preached how it was good that a man was murdered, so we could be covered in his blood?

    Also him and John turning Christ into God, means we can’t reach as Christ said we could to be perfect as our father is in heaven; and also to achieve more then Christ had.



    Peace N love B with U
     
  2. At_the_Wellspring

    At_the_Wellspring ...always learning

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    Hi again Wizanda
    I have to say I also agree with some of what you are saying, like there could definitely be more emphasis on what we can do by faith, rather than the fact that Christs perfection is impossible to achieve, (therefore lets not bother...). Its definitely more empowering to have the knowledge that we have the potential to do as he did.

    I guess with everything there always has to be some kind of paradox - we are capable of the amazing and great things Jesus did, but his ability to do those things was in part due to his complete humility. The ultimate combo of power with humility... strive to have that power and our egos might get in the way, it might become more about me and my ability to heal than the desire simply to heal another who is suffering. On the other hand, if we strive to be humble, to see ourselves as lowly, far below God, far from being as godly as Jesus, then thats not exactly empowering, and we may disregard the fact that we could possibly have those powers.

    In all religious thought/ theory (as I know it anyway) there seem to be these paradoxes and dualities that are hard for us to get our heads around. So over different times and in different interpretations there may often be emphasis on one more than another.

    And I guess my point of view may differ, or I may not feel the urgency in 'convicting' Paul, because I don't believe in a strong division of heaven/ hell, as you described 'getting in to heaven'. I believe people have been lead one way or another, to or away from ultimate truth all throughout history, and then on top of that, because we are not just all lemmings following eachother around the place, we then as individuals make some kind of choice as to our understanding of anothers message/ teachings and our own understanding of life. For this reason I personally have difficulty in being able to separate such complexity into heaven or hell. But again, that is another whole topic.

    Just as an example, if there happens to be a young German who dislikes asians. He doesn't have a particular foundation for this dislike, but he believes them to be (just say) unintelligent (i hope I'm not offending anyone here...). Clearly he has been mislead somehow, he is missing some part of reality/ truth.

    We could say that it is completely and ultimately the fault of Hitler, who instilled racism in a nation single-handedly. Its all his fault. Or we could say well, actually he has been influenced by his grandparents and parents who had similar beliefs. So, he has been 'bred' or 'brought up' this way. But what about the fact that he is an intelligent human being and also able to make judgement for himself?

    And anyway, if Hitler hadn't existed at all, hadn't had any effect on history, would this person still be racist? Would no german at all be racist? While it would've made a huge impact on History if Hitler hadn't existed, it wouldn't necessarily mean that there would have been no racism of any type or scale in any German's mind. Other historical events, as well as personal experiences of this German, as well as the simple fact that we as humans have the characteristic of needing to protect ourselves and our kind (tribal tendencies), would have an influence, probably meaning that racism would still exist.

    Hitler could have been the 'glue' that stuck down Germany's feet and stopped it in its tracks for a while, but not forever. A German today is influenced by so much more that one person in history. Just as Christians are influenced by Jesus', the bible and its writers, there is far more complexity to it, influencing our interpretation of words on a page.

    Everyone who has a bible can read the passage about Jesus saying we can do things as amazing as he did. We might place emphasis on this point and feel completely inspired and empowered, walking side-by-side with Christ. We may also choose to humble ourselves before God. And humility before God, realising our inadequacies and striving to change them or learning to accept them and work with them can be a totally empowering experience. Different strokes for different folks I guess.


    Peace be with you too :)
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda Member

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    Namaste,



    I like the way that you have used Hitler as a reference, why did Hitler want to wipe out the Jews?

    The Bible, and that he felt that they had killed Christ, so he would wipe them out, In fact the Bible was part of the reason he went mad.

    What did people want to do with Hitler as he had caused all these problems? Try and get rid of him!

    Do you see what I am aiming at?

    Yes live is free choice and all people will choose a path, yet If people learn something new they are either inspired or taught to do something.

    So we have Christ showing us this path, then the road splits as you have Paul’s ideology and John’s.

    This is why there is so much division amongst even the Christian churches and there is a new denomination every year.

    As you say things are passed down from generation to generation, if Paul hadn’t murdered so many followers of Christ and then established the Roman church; which later finished the job of murdering all traces of followers of Christ.

    Imagine the world we could live in, look at all the wars and suffering caused due to the Bible. Most of the worlds cultures are invaded by Christians and told they must follow Christ and not God???

    Then they fight back as their previous teachers taught oneness. Christ taught oneness as well as we see in the true gospels.

    The Muslims fight with people of the Bible as in the Quran it says it shall be used as criterion (in which to judge by).

    The Quran says that the bible has forgeries and was edited by the Jews (Pharisees).

    Now this is my whole point I have read both, Mohammed says an angel told him and I believe this to be correct. As from reading the way Mohammed wrote and as he admits him self he was illiterate.

    Now with just using the Bible alone I can prove what was edited and forged, if we fix this the world can go back to oneness (get rid of Hitler).

    Do we leave Hitler to invade all the countries and take over or do we get rid of him and stop world war 3 before it happens?



    Peace N love B with U
     
  4. At_the_Wellspring

    At_the_Wellspring ...always learning

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    Hi Wizanda

    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The bible has inspired many people to amazing things since it was written... social and civil and human rights movements, charities... etc etc

    And we can't just fix history, fix the bible. It's all about interpretation. If you or whoever decides to 'fix' it now, you would be fixing it according to your own interpretation. So how are you any more 'right' than Paul?

    The truth of Christianity, that in essence can be found within the bible has inspired thousands of people to live better lives... The bible did not 'cause' every horrible thing that has happened in 'Christian' history.

    Anyone, who is human, who has 'human' characteristics of greed, power, control, can manipulate and use the bible to justify an evil act. It is not the bible itself causing the act, it is the human invovement and interpretation. In just the same way as today we see extremists using passages from the Qur'an to kill thousands of innocent people in suicide attacks. It is not the truth of the religion itself that is the problem, it is people's ability to twist words and apply their own meaning to them.

    My view, so I guess we agree to disagree, I won't have time over the next few weeks to write any more.

    Good chatting with you.
    Peace.
     
  5. wizanda

    wizanda Member

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    Ok I have been in-between house lately so; my work with publishing this has been on hold, even though the more constructive work of how to put it across, has always on my mind since I was 5 years old.
    You asked me what difference between me and Paul, its isn’t me as such it is Christ and so clear, it is blatantly obvious to me after my time studying that Paul’s teachings are anti-Christ and clearly contradict.
    Where for instances here is something I am going to post all over, see if you can spot the differences.

    The Ultimate Biblical Question

    There is a couple of scriptures clear to me, whilst I have gone through the bible that need putting in a order as almost a question of whether you can follow both?



    Luke, physician – Friend of Yeshua
    12:1-5 in the meantime, when there had gathered together an innumerable crowd of people, so as to trample on one another, He began to say to His disciples first, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (2) For there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, nor anything hidden that shall not be known. (3) Therefore whatever you have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light. And that which you have spoken in the ear in secret rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops. (Letters and books of the New Testament) (4) And I say to you, my friends do not be afraid of those who kill the body (Paul), and after that have no more that they can do. (5) But I will warn you of whom you shall fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear Him.


    Zechariah prophet – Messenger of God
    11:3-17 there is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is destroyed. There is a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is destroyed. (4) For so says Jehovah my God: Feed the flock of the slaughter, (5) those buying them kill them, and hold themselves not guilty. And those who sell them say, Blessed be Jehovah, for I am rich; and their shepherds do not pity them. (Jewish people and their teachers) (6) For I will never again pity the people of the land, says Jehovah; but lo, I will make the men come out, each one into his neighbour’s hand and into his king's hand. And they shall strike the land, and I will not deliver out of their hand. (7) And I fed the flock of slaughter, even the poor of the flock. And I took two staffs for myself; the one I called Kindness (grace), and the other I called Union (inheritance). And I fed the flock. (8) I also cut off three shepherds (Sadducees, Pharisees and Levites*) in one month; and my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also despised me. (9) And I said, I will not feed you; that which dies, let it die; and that which is to be cut off, let it be cut off. And those left, let them eat, each woman her neighbour’s flesh. (Fake communion) (10) And I took my staff Kindness (grace), and broke it apart, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. (11) And it was broken in that day; and so the poor of the flock who were watching me knew that it was the Word of Jehovah. (12) And I said to them, if it is good, give my price; and if not, let it go. So they weighed my price thirty pieces of silver. (Given to Judas) (13) And Jehovah said to me; Throw it to the potter, the magnificent price at which I was valued by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of Jehovah (Potters field in the land of Israel). (14) Then I broke my other staff Union (Inheritance) apart, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah (Muslim) and Israel (Jewish and Christian). (15) And Jehovah said to me; Take to you yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. (Pharisees) (16) For lo, I will raise up a shepherd (Paul) in the land who will not care for those going to ruin, nor will he seek the young, nor will heal that which is broken, nor will he feed that which stands. But he shall eat the flesh of the fat and tear off their hoofs. (17) Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock! The sword shall be on his arm and on his right eye; his arm shall be completely dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.



    Matthew Tax collector – Disciple of Yeshua
    27:3-8 Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders, (4) saying, I have sinned, betraying innocent blood. And they said, what is that to us? You see to that. (5) And he threw the pieces of silver down in the temple and departed. And he went and hanged himself. (6) And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, it is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. (7) And they took counsel and bought the potter's field with them, to bury strangers in. (8) therefore that field was called, The Field of Blood, to this day.




    Matthew Tax collector – Disciple of Yeshua
    Mat 23:13-35 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of Heaven against men. For you neither go in, nor do you allow those entering to go in. (14) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and pray at length as pretence. Therefore you shall receive the greater condemnation. (15) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (16) Woe to you, blind guides, saying, Whoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor. (17) Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifies the gold? (18) And, Whoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the Sacrifice that is on it, he is a guilty! (19) Fools and blind! For which is greater, the sacrifice, or the altar that sanctifies the sacrifice? (20) Therefore whoever shall swear by the altar swears by it, and by all things on it. (21) And whoever shall swear by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. (22) And he who shall swear by Heaven swears by the throne of God, and by Him who sits on it. (23) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithes of mint and dill and cumin, and you have left undone the weightier matters of the Law, judgment, mercy, and faith. You ought to have done these and not to leave the other undone. (24) Blind guides who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (25) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of extortion and excess.(26) Blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of them may be clean also. (27) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. (28) Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (29) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous, (30) and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets; (32) and you fill up the measure of your fathers. (33) Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? (34) therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city; (35) so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
     
  6. wizanda

    wizanda Member

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    John Mark, fisher man – Disciple of Yeshua
    12:1-9 And He began to speak to them by parables. A man planted a vineyard, and set a fence about it, and dug a wine-vat, and built a tower, and he let it out to vinedressers, and went away. (2) And at the season he sent a servant to the vinedressers, so that he might receive from the vinedressers the fruit of the vineyard. (3) And taking him, they beat him and sent him away empty. (4) And again he sent to them another servant. And stoning that one, they struck him in the head, and sent him away, insulting him. (5) And again he sent another. And they killed him, and many others, beating some and killing some. (6) Therefore, still having one son, his own beloved, he also sent him to them last of all, saying, they will respect my son. (7) But those vinedressers said among themselves, this is the heir! Come, let us kill him and the inheritance shall be ours. (8) And they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard. (9) Therefore what will the lord of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers and will give the vineyard to others.


    John Nicodemus, Pharisee – managed to put most Jews off ever following Yeshua‘s teachings, also in the sect due to be cut off??
    11:49-52 And one of them, Caiaphas, being the high priest of that year, said to them, You do not know anything at all, (50) nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation perish. (51) And he did not speak this of himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Yeshua should die for the nation; (52) and not for that nation only, but also that He should gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.


    Matthew Tax collector – Disciple of Yeshua
    9:13 but go and learn what this is; I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Hosea Prophet – Messenger of God
    6:6 for I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

    Matthew Tax collector – Disciple of Yeshua
    12:7 But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty.



    Ephesian, Paul a Pharisee – How to destroy all he stood for? Pretend you joined him!
    5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us, and has given Himself for us as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.


    Roman, Paul Pharisee – Never knew him and hated him and what he stood for also part of the sect to be cut off?
    11:6 but if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.


    Revelations, John a Prophet, not same author as the gospel of John – Friend of Yeshua
    14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, and blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labours, and their works follow them.


    Matthew Tax collector – Disciple of Yeshua
    16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.


    Revelations, John a Prophet, not same author as the gospel of John – messengers of Yeshua
    20:12-13 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.



    I could explain all that, if it is required yet much is in full articles on each subject to define it under every stone, which needs explaining.

    Could you please advise me what needs adding preferably in scripture, as I just want to stay out of it as much as possible, if I can? If you can think of any scriptures that would fit in, to maybe help explain a point pre-advance please say. Remember though this needs to be kept not heavy as it is then postable everywhere and easy to print.


    This is still a work in progress, so any advice on making it clear please say
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda Member

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    Just to make the points clear, as I have been asked to do.

    1st is Christ clearly came to cut off inheritance and grace he said this; it was prophesied by Zechariah clearly.
    So how can the Pharisees teach people they have an inheritance in Christ, if he tells us the ones who do this will in fact be chucked out?

    Now if Christ tells us it is the ones who do the work and with this they will be judged by, how can Paul within one sentence declare you have grace which you don't and that works don’t count, that is completely declaring he is Anti-Christ as he stands against what Christ was sent for and taught?

    So it is not about fixing history it is about fixing NOW!!

    We have Muslims fighting as they say the Bible has been changed, this is what I can easily prove.

    So if we fix the book as is foretold that we must do, we would solve so many wars all over the place, the whole issue of terror stems from Christian and Muslim problems, this has continued for 2000 years.

    If you have a machine that is broken, you don't leave it and say well it has been broken for ages, so let’s leave it like that, especially if it is easy to fix.

    You fix it and everything runs smoother.
     
  8. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    You present this "evidence as" a Christian, or non-Christian? Very important to know how the court's prosecution or DA stands?

    It determines whether the prosecution is unbiased or other...in which case the defense can call for a mistrial. (at least in the U.S.). In otherwords, the prosecution must be willing to accept evidence as discovered for or against the defense. I do not think you qualify, based on your previous statements. Hence I would move for a mistrial (and based on what you've provided so far...it would be granted). :rolleyes:

    v/r

    Q

    p.s. as a leagle beagle, I am very interested in this thread my friend. I want to play the part of the defense lawyer. Oh, and i am a christian...I just never saw this thread before.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2006
  9. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    The most derisive issue with this "trial" is that there is no judge, and no jury. If trial by jury is unacceptable, then there must be a consensus between the prosecution and the defense to have a Tribunal judge (impartial), or a single judge of neither faith (impartial). If that is not acceptable, then there is no trial (and the accused goes free). If you intend on using Sharia Law, then that is unacceptable since it is not universally accepted, and again the accused goes free. Common Law may be a way to try the "accused". But again the "judge" must have no interests in either faiths.

    In short, we must have an agnostic or an atheist (one who could care less about either of the faiths).

    I'm game...how about you? ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  10. wizanda

    wizanda Member

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    Oh I am sorry, I am defending Yeshua, on the ground that it is foretold that he came to cut off the sects, yet they re-established them selves, yet he warned people against it and these are the books in question.

    The accused are John, Simon and Paul Vs Yeshua and the rest of the Bible.

    Would you like to do this, like a proper court case, as we can if you wish?
     
  11. brucegdc

    brucegdc Moderator

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    This is heading in a direction that I think is really incompatible with the code of conduct, as it's becoming a pure attack thread. Thread closed for further review.
     
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