Will and Elst.

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by prajapati, Sep 15, 2005.

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  1. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    i didnt say the whole thing was adopted from pagan roots.

    i did say though, that pagan roots and rituals were adopted/incorporated INTO christianity. and biblical tales were woven around them (eg -solstice became birthday) incidentally will durant also said that. that christianity adopted paganism, in a classic "if you cant beat them, then join them" tactical manouvre.

    prove me wrong.
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Emoticons could be very useful for you here, to help convey the emotion with which a sentence or passage is written in.

    I never used to use them, and my intentions were often misunderstood because of it. :)

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, and there certainly is an argument that this has happened to *some* degree - it is no secret that Christianity often sought to replace existing belief systems, rather than eradicate them (such as replacing ancient shrines with Christian churches) - but I would also argue that it is easy to inadvertently exaggerate the extent in which the cultural practices have impinged on the actual theology of Christianity.

    For example, Christians may engage in the Western cultural practice of having a Christmas tree in their home at Christmas, but I don't believe there are many churches at all that stick a fir tree on the altar.

    As for the timing of Christian festivals - indeed, the actual timing has often been due to the process of supplanting existing theologies, but I personally find it hard to see the argument that supplanting belief systems therefore implies taking them aboard.

    The recognition of spring and winter solstices is a practice many religious systems have, because these are (or were) extremely important times for the cultures in question - simply having major festivals on these dates does not therefore mean they are taking on pagan ideas, as much as trying to replace them with Christian ones.

    The spring solstice offers a period of renewal and hope in the world as the earth returns to life after the sleep of winter - how appropriate that Christianity should determine this as the best time to celebrate the crucifixion and return to life of Jesus?

    Now, if you were to go another way and argue that Christ was essentially a reinvention of an agricultural deity for an urban Greek audience, then that would be another argument entirely. :)
     
  3. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    Indeed, and there certainly is an argument that this has happened to *some* degree - it is no secret that Christianity often sought to replace existing belief systems, rather than eradicate them (such as replacing ancient shrines with Christian churches) - but I would also argue that it is easy to inadvertently exaggerate the extent in which the cultural practices have impinged on the actual theology of Christianity.

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    i did not exeggerate. i for example did not name a singlke thing in the original list (ok not me, elst) which isnt something in christianity with a pagan root.

    as for the part in bold - either you love euphemisms, or you dont know the real history of europe, esp of dudes like charlemange. for ex. he came up , amongst many other edicts and orders, with this incredibly innovative concept where every 2nd child born to the original germanic saxons would be kidnapped and raised with a newly converted christian family - a technique later perfected by the now-christian, germanic anglo-saxons in australia - where aboriginals had their babies kidnapped galore. google Andrew Simmons and Guy Sebastian for good examples. and then there is the small matter of the inquisitions, including one here in india (Goa).. but these are very recent.
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    For example, Christians may engage in the Western cultural practice of having a Christmas tree in their home at Christmas, but I don't believe there are many churches at all that stick a fir tree on the altar.

    ------------------------

    no there arnt. yet there are few christian families that dont have a fir tree in their houses on the day of solstice. and that bold bit should actually be "at solstice". besides it wasnt a cultural practice, this celebrating of solstice. it was a pagan festival all right and still is practiced in pagan circles. cultural practice is bull fighting or such like. that which doesnt celebrate any god from any belief system.
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    As for the timing of Christian festivals - indeed, the actual timing has often been due to the process of supplanting existing theologies, but I personally find it hard to see the argument that supplanting belief systems therefore implies taking them aboard.
    -------------------------------------


    no. but fact remains that the present day saxons for example are celebrating christmas on the same day on which they used to celebrate solstice in their old belief system. also that where as christianity has no real actual connection with the day when the sun makes a comeback of sorts, the festival of solstice is organically linked with it.

    and er... the bit in bold.. theologies... i am sure you meant "existing cultures".. or was it a Freudian slip ?
    the supplanting bit is less euphemistic than "replace" used b4, so congrats.
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    The recognition of spring and winter solstices is a practice many religious systems have, because these are (or were) extremely important times for the cultures in question - simply having major festivals on these dates does not therefore mean they are taking on pagan ideas, as much as trying to replace them with Christian ones.
    --------------------------------



    i am sure that by "cultures" you meant "extremely imp times for the religious systems in question", esp having used the same words in the previous line !!

    these two things are not inter-changable - culture and religious system.
    bull fighting is part of spanish culture not part of the present religion of spaniards.
    celebrating the event called solstice by weaving the "feast of the invincible sun" around it, was a part of pagan religions, not their cultures. that would be their dance, song and games.


    and yes they are not taking pagan ideas - they are taking pagan events of importance (like solstice) and replacing the associated pagan idea (eg - the feast of the invincible sun, eaten in reverence to the sun) with a biblical connection (eg- someone's birthday), never mind the fact that its often without historical proof (eg- 25th december is not the birthday.. at least there's no historical proof to suggest it. this day became the birthday ONLY from the time the pagan idea of the "feast of invincible sun" got replaced with this biblical idea, on the event of the day of "solstice" - which is an actual and annual event in astronomy, feast or no feast.)
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    The spring solstice offers a period of renewal and hope in the world as the earth returns to life after the sleep of winter - how appropriate that Christianity should determine this as the best time to celebrate the crucifixion and return to life of Jesus?
    ----------------------------------


    yes. they were indeed judicious in their choice of biblical fable/idea, that replaced the pagan idea on the day of the event.

    it would look mighty odd and speak ill of the mental health of the "idea replacers", had they chosen to make the height of winter an 25th dec as the day of "return of life".

    but the fact remains - its like a manenquin - you can take of the evening gown its wearing, and replace it with a jeans and T or some other dress.

    the same manenquin is used still - and there's no denying that.

    as for the bit in bold, it was made to coincide, so that the new dress replaces the old dress. if it didnt coincide, and a new date/manenquin was used, the old manenquin would still be wearing the same dress - and that "replacement" you euphemistically alluded to, would not have materialised.
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    Now, if you were to go another way and argue that Christ was essentially a reinvention of an agricultural deity for an urban Greek audience, then that would be another argument entirely. :)
    ---------------------------------


    i made no such arguement !! :) (i'm taking the hint and using emoticons)
     
  4. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    so far I dont see anything that Christians & the whole world is not already aware of, before a durant or prajapati ever came about.

    give me one example of a biblical tale & what you mean by that. or the 'tale' that bugs you most.
     
  5. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    aha !
    so christians were already aware of the fact that they adopted pagan manenquins and dressed them up in christian garb ??

    "tale" = a biblical story. for example the birth of Christ taking place on the exact day (the day of solstice) the pagans celebrated the feast of the invinsible sun.

    i didnt use it to mean "tall tale" or fake or fable. and none of them bugs me.


    what bugs me is the unwillingness to call a spade a spade.


    anyone, despite repeated attempts, none of my points have been refuted or proven wrong. most of all i am interested to know why voodoo and maya manenquins had NOT been dressed in christian dress, but on the other hand both africans and mayans (those that have not been slayed by the spaniards) had been forced to accept solstice, though its neither christian nor voodoo/maya. why this eurocentricity of manenquins ?




    so i maintain - a whole lot of pagan manenquins remain in christianity, dressed though in biblical dress now. and that the religion christianity adopted itself to the boundary conditions of the pagan faiths that it wanted to eradicate.
     
  6. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i did not adopt them, they were handed down that way in many churches for centuries. it depends on what church you would go to as to how aware & admittant to it all. i think most everyone here does not have a problem with what you are saying. (so far):)

    Most Christians build there faith on the the love of Christ & the death burial & resurrection of Jesus for eternal life.
    is any part of that foundation an issue?
     
  7. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    no its not. its the fact that beneath the dress of christianity (not christian theology but christian festivals/rituals), lies the manenquin of paganism, that i wanted to point out in the thread.

    accepted answers - yes or no (if no, then explain how come)

    and though you yourself did not adopt them, they were adopted by the catholic (i believe) church back in the early days of christianity. that many centuries have passed, dont make them any less pagan.
     
  8. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    ok then we are in agreement. yes.
    if you want to try & chisel away the great walls of china, that is up to you. i tossed my chisel out the window years ago & learned that it will eventually weather away & maybe open up on its own, yet the basic foundation of it all, will always stand uncorrupted .:)

    peace to you & i appreciate the little discussion of awareness.
     
  9. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    That's a point of contention - only the clothing is pagan. As before, the Christmas tree isn't on the Church altar - Christianity has not adopted the Christmas tree as a religious symbol.

    However, multi-cultural secular Europeans were certainly happy to *revive* older customs. I don't believe you'll find the ceremony of the Christmas tree present in Britain before the 19th century.

    This is the problem. *Which* "pagans" are the Christians stealing from? The Jewish celebration? The Persian celebration? The Italian? Scottish? Mayan? As before, it was a key date in the agricultural calendar. To celebrate an event at that time did not mean taking one religious tradition and simply giving it another name and calling it Christian - it's simply the cuckolding of the original tradition by a new religion with it's own clear theological events.

    That and Europeans. ;)

    You haven;t really raised anything other than an observation that Christian rituals can have pagan elements. You don't seem to have put forward any successful argument stating that Christianity is simply other religious theologies under a different name.

    You really think Christianity isn't big in Haiti? The Maya were long gone when the Spaniards arrived, though - and I don;t believe the Spaniards took the Aztecs customs and sacrifices on-board and called them Christian.

    Certainly there has been a lot of forced conversion - but that isn't your argument - your argument appears to be that Christianity is just another pagan religion, under a new name. I'm not seeing this supported by any specifica accusations with references. You're putting forward your opinion as some kind of "proof"?

    Or have I misunderstood something here??
     
  10. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    grossly.

    i'll give you a chance to get the stick by the right end.
     
  11. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    so you agree that christians still celebrate astronomical events (like solstice) that pagans used to weave their pagan theology on (like associating the feast in hounour of the life giver on solstice day) after associating something biblical with it??

    that they dressed astronomical manenquins dressed in pagan lore, in christian dress ??

    for example the astronomical event of solstice (pagan mananquin), on which the pagan (dress) of feast and celebration of the invinsible sun was fitted, is now fitted with the christian notion (dress) that someone was born on the day of solstice.


    china has no great walls. it has but one ;)

    i know that no matter how you decorate it, the basic foundation has and will remain ;)

    peace to you too and i appreaciate that you finally agreed that the dress of chrismas is after all woven on the astronomical manenquin of solstice, after taking off the pagan dress of "the feast of the invincible sun"
     
  12. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    maybe you celebrate it that way. i celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.
     
  13. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    yes thats the christian dress.

    you celebrate it on the astronomical manenquinb of solstice though.

    the same manenquin that pagans had previously dressed up in "the feast of the invinsible sun"
     
  14. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i know that. i cant change the wall of china that was built b4 me. Jesus was not built on anything. For me he is the builder & the foundation of it all.
    i dont do the invisible sun thing. it does not make any difference to me what day his birth is celebrated.
     
  15. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    jesus was not built on anything, but his birthday sure was fitted on the wall.

    and if it does not make any difference when his birthday is celebrated, why then celebrate it on the day of winter solstice when pagans celebrated the invinsibility of the sun by having a feast in his honour??

    why not the 14th of july? why strip another belief system and replace it with your own ?
     
  16. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    why dont you ask Rome! or do you just like pointing fingers at people who had nothing to do with it.
    and put on a different record, one that does not skip constantly.
     
  17. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    As before prajapati, Christian sought to replace existing systems - it seems your argument so far rests on Christians sharing some of the holidays, therefore Christianity is a pagan religion.

    That argument doesn't work. Paganism and Christianity share the same world, same seasons, same effects on the world by the lunar and solar movements. Doesn't it make more sense for Christianity to hold their own celebrations of return to life and entrance to life over the pagan festicals in an effort to replace them?
     
  18. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    well i gave you a chance to get the stick by the right end.

    evidently you havent yet managed to do that.

    my arguement is not what you think it is.

    so i'll give it another shot - by replying to your previous post.




    and bandit,

    i could not care less why rome did what it did.

    what i am saying is that rome dresses pagan manenquins in christian garb, and since that was done in a deliberate effort to obliterate the pagan dress the manenquin was previously wearing, the upshot is that the same pagan mananquins (dates) are celebrated to this day, under a christian spin.

    thats what will durant and i wanted to point out. that christianity helped continue/preserve the same pagan traditions that it wanted to destroy by adopting pagan dates/manenquins. which though doesnt make christianity a pagan religion, does make a lot of pagan concepts live on, in christianity.

    also its not just dates that were borrowed. theology and concepts too.

    from the first quote -

    Isis with the babe Horus became the Madonna with Child. The bearded and horse-borne Germanic god Wodan became Saint Nicolas, later americanized as Santa Claus. Even the Buddha found a place on the saints’ calendar under the name Saint Josaphat. The autumnal celebration of the dead became All Saints’ Day and All Souls’ Day, which is nowadays regaining its purely Pagan colours in the form of Hallowe'en. The date of Easter (from the Germanic dawn goddess Eostra/Ostarra) combines the Pagan symbolism of Spring Equinox and Full Moon with the Christian innovation of Sunday as the day of the Lord,-- an innovation which itself was borrowed from the solar cult of Mithraism, a late-Roman type of Masonic Lodge inspired by both Iranian Mazdeism and astrology. Winter Solstice as its feast of the Invincible Sun became Christmas.


    ---------->>> the bits in bold are extra-biblical concepts/theology.
    for example, christ is very much central to the bible and that his birthday needs to be celebrated is a christian concept all the way. but there's no reference to "autumnal celebration of the dead", in the middle-east based book thats the bible. and the "day of the lord" concept does not come from christ, but from the fact that one or more of the 12 apostoles were influenced enough, by the "solar clt of mithraism" - to have felt it worthy to incorporate the concept of "day of the lord" into christianity.


    so clearly, a few NEW concepts (religious concepts = theology) also came into christianity from pagan concepts.
    thats apart from those special dates of the pagan religious calender, that were dressed up in christian connotations.
     
  19. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    That's a point of contention - only the clothing is pagan.

    no. some concepts and ideas too.

    and its not the clothing that IS pagan, its the manenquin that is.
    the present clothing is christian, where once a pagan clothing used to exist.


    As before, the Christmas tree isn't on the Church altar - Christianity has not adopted the Christmas tree as a religious symbol.

    yes. but then again nor are churches a middle eastern/biblical thing.

    that the church should have a pointed spire - often resembling an upturned viking boat (in scandinavia), comes from the design of pagan temples.

    and though christianity has not adopted the chrismas tree as a religious symbol, it is an integral part of celebrating chrismas - celebration of the birth of a person,born on an unknown day of the year in israel, - is done on solstice day and with a fir tree playing an important role. the same fir tree that never grew in middle east.

    btw thats what i meant by the euro-centricity of pagan symbols that the churched allowed.
    why allow fir trees (while converting european pagans) and not "dharma chakras" when converting mongoloid buddhists? why cant they continue to associate with the dharma-chakra the way pagans-turned-christians continue to maintain their association with fir trees??

    and why the hell does the mongolian have to associate with the fir tree when he/she converts to christianity - when fir trees are not biblical and were only allowed i, as a sort of consession to european pagans. afterall fir trees dont grow in tibet either.


    However, multi-cultural secular Europeans were certainly happy to *revive* older customs. I don't believe you'll find the ceremony of the Christmas tree present in Britain before the 19th century.

    lmao !!

    so its to "revive older customs' that the church allowed christmas trees to be incorporated in the celebration of christmas on solstice day from the 19th century ???
     
  20. prajapati

    prajapati Cosmic Otter

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    This is the problem. *Which* "pagans" are the Christians stealing from?

    almost exclusively teh pagans of europe.
    and sometimes like the Iris with the babe Horus thing, from egypt.


    The Jewish celebration? The Persian celebration? The Italian? Scottish? Mayan?


    no.
    yes, though vicariously through mithraism.
    maybe. the solar cult of mithraism comes to mind.
    dunno. scots are celts, most of the euro-pagan things christianity gave a biblical spin to, are germanic.
    mayan? NO.

    As before, it was a key date in the agricultural calendar. To celebrate an event at that time did not mean taking one religious tradition and simply giving it another name and calling it Christian - it's simply the cuckolding of the original tradition by a new religion with it's own clear theological events.

    yes. and they replaced the pagan mythology associated with the key date on the agri calender, with a mythology/biblical tale, of their own.

    in this case, no concept or theology has been borrowed, i agree with you.

    but the concept of day of the lord, mother with child etc like i pointed out 2 posts back are borrowed concepts/theologies, & alien to the bible of Canaan.


    That and Europeans. ;)

    not europeans.

    but the euro-centricity of the pagan events and often concepts that christianity allowed to live on under this new umbrella.

    and the fact that non european convertees have to take to these same events/concepts, though those are neither biblical nor from their own (the new convertee's) previous belief system.




    You haven;t really raised anything other than an observation that Christian rituals can have pagan elements. You don't seem to have put forward any successful argument stating that Christianity is simply other religious theologies under a different name.

    i did not try that !! the 1st bit in bold is all i wanted to point out, not the 2nd bit.

    though i did m,anage to point out some other religious concepts (theologies) that christianity did take from pagan religions (day of the lord concept taken from mithraism, which itself was taken from mazdaism).

    of course, i need not take the pain of mentioning that a lot of christianity's concepts DO come from another religious theology - the Judaic. ;)

    so how original does that make christianity ??


    You really think Christianity isn't big in Haiti?

    i am sure christianity is very big in haiti.

    afterall its unlikely that the peopel who cound uproot the inca, maya, aztec and all other aboriginal and amerindian theologies of the new world, - after genociding all the people they could they could - would spare the people of a tiny island.

    The Maya were long gone when the Spaniards arrived, though -

    maya religion wasnt quite all gone. and the maya people certainly werent.

    but the spaniards (spanish and portuguese) are the turks-cum-huns-cum-mongols of europe.
    so the amerindians stood little chance.

    and I don;t believe the Spaniards took the Aztecs customs and sacrifices on-board and called them Christian.

    yes and thats the point.

    european pagan customs and rituals were taken abroad and given christian spin.
    but the customs and rituals of non-whites were trampled and ignored.

    also aztecs were not about 'sacrifices" alone as the church would have us believe. i amsurprise you believe in a canard like that being a mod in a CR forum.
    if missionaries are to be believed, then hinduism is all about cow worship, buddhism is about a fake lunatic, wicca is all about human sacrifiece

    - only they are spotlessly clean good samaritans, never mind the inquisitions and the "genocidal evengelisms" carried out by CharlieTheMango and others !!



    Certainly there has been a lot of forced conversion - but that isn't your argument -

    no its not - there's little to argue about. like debating if the holocaust (tacitly supported by who ever was the pope back then, if some books are to be believed) happened.

    your argument appears to be that Christianity is just another pagan religion, under a new name.


    no.
    i wanted to point out that christianity is not as UN-pagan as it likes to project itself and ALSO european paganism is not as dead as we think either - it's events and often concepts continue to live in christian guise.

    I'm not seeing this supported by any specifica accusations with references.

    since that wasnt my original point, i dont see why i should supply references to that effect.


    You're putting forward your opinion as some kind of "proof"?


    no i am not. you are free to assume though.

    also it wasnt my "opinion" that christmas is celebrated on solstice day. thats just what it IS.


    Or have I misunderstood something here??

    what do you think ??? ;)
     
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