Lesson in Self-Cherishing/The ego

[rdwillia]

Hello,

I recently came across a miscellaneous teaching on self-cherishing or the ego that gave me one of those "eureka!" moments and I thought I'd share it.

It was said that the only reason we experience any sort of pain, emotional or physical is because of our ego. We have become so attached to ourselves and the belief that this experience is real, that we actually feel pain. How ludicrous!

I've always understood this superficially and somewhat intellectually, but it's so true on so many levels! How ridiculous! We don't experience other peoples pain and suffering because we aren't as attached to them, we don't cherish them as we do ourselves. So why should we be so attached to ourselves? If we didn't think we were so darn special, the only suffering we would experience would be in realizing we can't make others realize the same thing. Even those who don't want to help others, you would most likely get annoyed with them ramming their proverbial heads into the wall and wish to liberate them. Which would most certainly help us to strengthen our practice so that we can get out of samsara and truly help all other sentient beings.

Try remembering this next time you're in pain, it's like a weight is lifted. Just try to remember that this experience lacks inherent existence and how selfish we're being in feeling that pain in the first place and it all just starts to melt away and seem ridiculous. It's not an immediate cure-all but it's a very good starting point.

~rdwillia

 

[Bandit]

hi rdwillia

Christian Science Church teaches this. they go as far to say when we cut ourselves we are not really bleeding.
when i had shingles in my jaw (one of the worse nerve pains there is), i tried what you are saying for 10 days until i finally went to emergency & had nerve pain perscribed. i was at the point of pain that i was asking them to cut the nerve to my jaw permanent.

i dont feel selfish when i feel pain, be it emotional or physical or whatever. i learn & grow from that pain & when i look back i understand better why. falling into the pain & accepting it, or asking for help, is actually what relieves the pain for me.

my 2 cents worth of pain

 

[seattlegal]

Try remembering this next time you're in pain, it's like a weight is lifted. Just try to remember that this experience lacks inherent existence and how selfish we're being in feeling that pain in the first place and it all just starts to melt away and seem ridiculous. It's not an immediate cure-all but it's a very good starting point.

Um, I wouldn't try bringing this up at a maternity ward....

 

[samabudhi]

i dont feel selfish when i feel pain, be it emotional or physical or whatever.

If you truly have no preference for whether you feel pain or not, imagine a total stranger was in agony. If you could, would you gladly give up your own happiness, your self-cherishing, to take on the pain of that person? I doubt many people would say yes to this. We're so conditioned to self-cherishing, it is not always apparent.

 

[rdwillia]

Hello Bandit,

i don't feel selfish when i feel pain, be it emotional or physical or whatever. i learn & grow from that pain & when i look back i understand better why. falling into the pain & accepting it, or asking for help, is actually what relieves the pain for me.

my 2 cents worth of pain

Thanks for the post. Shingles in the jaw sounds absolutely horrible, I can't even imagine. This is definitely one way to look at it, the good thing is that you've apparently learned from your pain. It may seem careless or heartless to make the assertion that we only feel pain because we're "selfish" but it's quite true. Maybe not selfish in the sense that you used, it's not intentional but it's that very sense of self that causes us the pain. However, it probably helps to understand my view to first look at pain with a Buddhist view of emptiness. When you do this, you can work it backwards and see that everything comes from emptiness in the first place, leaving no room for pain.

We experience ourselves as being this body. We could all agree that we feel attached to it, it's the very same body that our mind is quite literally attached to. It is because we identify with this body so strongly that we actually believe that it exists from it's own side. We 'own' it so we have created ways to 'protect' it, such as pain. Therefore, if I weren't so attached, concerned with and in love with myself, I would have no basis for pain and suffering. That's precisely why we don't feel other peoples pain. If we cherished everyone else above ourselves or at least saw everyone as truly equal, I would feel your pain just as much as I felt my own.

Perhaps I'm doing better at this, I believe I got a good wave of nausea reading your brief account of shingles. And of course, as I previously stated, it's not an immediate cure-all but something to strive for.

Hello Seattlegal,

Um, I wouldn't try bringing this up at a maternity ward....

I would hope that I would never be so ignorant as to attempt this. However, I would never claim to have mastered this myself. I highly doubt a novice such as myself, could go through some truly painful experience and be so calm about it, at this point in my life anyway. I am definitely still very much a self-cherisher, but I do have the wish to overcome it.

The extent of my personal experience in pain relief through observing my self-cherishing would have to include such things as when I was washing my hands the other day and had the water on a tad too hot... oh, and paper cuts. But I can conceptualize and theorize and I wholeheartedly believe that if we were to work constantly on the smaller pains the larger pains wouldn't be so unbearable (physically and mentally).

Hi Samabudhi,

If you truly have no preference for whether you feel pain or not, imagine a total stranger was in agony. If you could, would you gladly give up your own happiness, your self-cherishing, to take on the pain of that person? I doubt many people would say yes to this. We're so conditioned to self-cherishing, it is not always apparent.

Thank you for clarifying. That's the essence of this post. Ideally at some point one could take on someone else's suffering and work it out on themselves. But having realized emptiness, the being taking on the pain would experience and feel the pain but be completely detached from it and virtually unaffected by it. This, is the true Bodhisattva!

Thank you all for a great discussion.

~rdwillia

 

[seattlegal]

But having realized emptiness, the being taking on the pain would experience and feel the pain but be completely detached from it and virtually unaffected by it.

Interesting! I believe this is what medical professionals call "shock." One of the treatments for it consists of talking to the person, in order to try to "keep them in their body." One would have to be well-practiced in order to maintain this state without putting the body into peril. People sometimes die from shock.

 

[Bandit]

Hello Bandit,

Therefore, if I weren't so attached, concerned with and in love with myself, I would have no basis for pain and suffering. That's precisely why we don't feel other peoples pain. If we cherished everyone else above ourselves or at least saw everyone as truly equal, I would feel your pain just as much as I felt my own.

Perhaps I'm doing better at this, I believe I got a good wave of nausea reading your brief account of shingles. And of course, as I previously stated, it's not an immediate cure-all but something to strive for.

Thank you all for a great discussion.

~rdwillia

there are many kinds of pain rdwillia, that i have expereinced. i feel & have experienced the pain of others & i know others have expereinced the same pain i have. to never have pain would make us not human & not be able to relate. i do cherish others; my family, my teachers, my pets & belongings. i cherish myself & the things that have been given to me.
without pain we would not know, what no pain is & we would not be having this discussion. even in love there can be pain. loving ourselves & loving others is possible to do & i guess if we loved each other the same way we love ourselves, there may not be as much pain. but i think contrast is a good thing & it took me years to figure that out.
i dont really like pain or to see others in pain, but i know one day there will be no more pain.
i can get a pretty good wiff of nausea myself when i see someone in pain, so i know you are capable of feeling it for others & that is not a bad thing. IMO
i feel that all men are created equal too, just wish more people felt that way.
thanks for the chat & the lesson.

 

[Bandit]

Interesting! I believe this is what medical professionals call "shock." One of the treatments for it consists of talking to the person, in order to try to "keep them in their body." One would have to be well-practiced in order to maintain this state without putting the body into peril. People sometimes die from shock.

hi seattlegal
you know i have been there also. all sweaty, a bit scared, start passing out & it is possible to go into shock real quick. that is when i just lay down & close my eyes.
i have heard, not sure if it is absolute, that women can take more pain than men. from being married & seeing moms pains over the years, i think it is probably true.

 

[samabudhi]

But having realized emptiness, the being taking on the pain would experience and feel the pain but be completely detached from it and virtually unaffected by it.

Interesting! I believe this is what medical professionals call "shock." One of the treatments for it consists of talking to the person, in order to try to "keep them in their body." One would have to be well-practiced in order to maintain this state without putting the body into peril. People sometimes die from shock.

to never have pain would make us not human & not be able to relate. i do cherish others; my family, my teachers, my pets & belongings. i cherish myself & the things that have been given to me.

Shock is a dissociated state, and involves experiencing the pain, but not the pain of pain. The Bodhisattva is completely present, and experiences the pain of pain as well. Consider having your finger chopped off in battle, and not knowing about it immediately because the nerves have been severed and you're all charged up.
Then you look and see that you don't have your finger anymore. Despite bringing your attention to the pain of the finger, a far greater pain ensues, the pain of the loss of your finger. You are attached to your finger and so you feel pain at losing it. The pain of the actual severed finger is miniscule compared to the loss of your finger.

It's a difficult concept to try and theorize, so here's another example you can probably relate to. When you were young, you loved sweets (candy). If you didn't get sweets, you were sad, if you did, you were happy. You were attached to sweets. Then you hit puberty and you became attached to more "important" things, like sex. Whether you get sweets or not is a minor concern since you're not attached to them anymore. You still enjoy sweets when you get them, there's no lack of experiencing the happiness that comes from sweets, you're just not attached to it.

Everyone is at a different level of this spiritual journey, but more of us get stuck on certain levels - attached to the happiness that comes from mundane things. But whenever you move a notch up, you feel much more content, like an elderly person watching children play. You're quite content to just sit there. Accumulating more on the same level is different - you actually feel worse. I'm rambling. But know that the Buddha didn't stop on these levels of experience, but went beyond them all, to achieve the highest attainment, which does not preclude the lower ones. This is all.

would make us not human & not be able to relate.

Any adult can relate to children, maybe not all of them, but they were all children at one stage and know what it's like to be so. Bodhisattvas are beyond self-cherishing, and Buddhas are beyond suffering entirely, but they were all sentient beings at one stage and experienced the same suffering we do. They can relate to us perfectly, and with Wisdom, since they are not attached. E ma! How wonderful!

i dont really like pain or to see others in pain, but i know one day there will be no more pain.

Indeed death is the only certainty of life, but what is after, you must surely conceed, cannot be an object of knowledge.

Buddha Bless

 

[Bandit]

Any adult can relate to children, maybe not all of them, but they were all children at one stage and know what it's like to be so. Bodhisattvas are beyond self-cherishing, and Buddhas are beyond suffering entirely, but they were all sentient beings at one stage and experienced the same suffering we do. They can relate to us perfectly, and with Wisdom, since they are not attached. E ma! How wonderful!



Buddha Bless

this seems to me like one would stop experiencing if he is entirely 'beyond' & it appears to be a bit of a self centered & cheating yourself approach, perhaps with out realizing.?
you cannot know the pain of another until you have experienced it for yourself. there are many different pains at different ages, i am sure clear up to death.
since we dont know what the future holds, to be 'beyond', already, seems to be limiting our experience(s).
how does a 50 year old adult buddha reconcile with 'knowing' & relate 'perfectly' to the suffering of an 90 year old widow, if the adult is already 'beyond' suffering?

 

[Ciel]

Bandit,

50 year old adult Buddha reporting............

How can being 'beyond' be limiting when one has already experienced the relating of the multitude of sentient beings to reach the point of 'beyond'?
There is a compassion greater than feeding the pain existing in the world. For pain will always look to another, presenting it's begging bowl of glorification in self mortification.

Instead to prepare a table for strengh and ability to move through those less fortunate, to lift above endurance, to do all possible in the most practical and human way, illuminated with love and understanding.

And yes this being has sat by the side of the '90 year old widow' with only this to give.
And watched another slip away who gave all she had to others.
And in the final hours wished only love to rebuild outside that world of hurt and pain, to hold a hand and see peace once more enter.

 

[Bandit]

Bandit,

50 year old adult Buddha reporting............

How can being 'beyond' be limiting when one has already experienced the relating of the multitude of sentient beings to reach the point of 'beyond'?
There is a compassion greater than feeding the pain existing in the world. For pain will always look to another, presenting it's begging bowl of glorification in self mortification.

ok. thanks Ciel

 

[samabudhi]

this seems to me like one would stop experiencing if he is entirely 'beyond' & it appears to be a bit of a self centered & cheating yourself approach, perhaps with out realizing.?

There's only one way to find out.

you cannot know the pain of another until you have experienced it for yourself. there are many different pains at different ages, i am sure clear up to death.
since we dont know what the future holds, to be 'beyond', already, seems to be limiting our experience(s).
how does a 50 year old adult buddha reconcile with 'knowing' & relate 'perfectly' to the suffering of an 90 year old widow, if the adult is already 'beyond' suffering?

Firstly, empathy/compassion, does not depend on knowledge, it depends on shared experience, or wisdom. Wisdom and compassion are two sides of the same coin.
That said, the 50 year old Buddha you describe has lived innumerable lives in suffering, as a widow, as a 90 year old, as any sentient being you can imagine. It is precisely because the Buddha had to go through the shift from suffering to enlightenment that he "knows", what sentient beings go through.

But now we're onto the subject of reincarnation, which even the most ardent practitioners have trouble grasping. The only sure way to fathom the shear profoundity of the Buddha's teachings, is to practice them. Do this, and as sure as karma, such knowledge will dawn as wisdom.

 

[Thomas]

I think we have to be careful to distinguish what kind of pain we are talking about?

In terms of the ego, then the 'pain' it feels is in accord to its passions - the more the disorder in the passions, the greater the pain. (Please excuse the Christian theological terminology - but I think it allowable in this circumstance).

Likewise, if we 'understand' (in the more profound sense) then the pain is lessened.

(Many Christian masters have highlighted 'detachment' as a principial virtue - the Greek is apathea - which is the 'detachment' of the self from the world. The source of the disorder in the apetites/passions lies in the attachment to things.)

But - and here I tread cautiously - compassion is aroused by the sense of pain and suffering in another. If we are not aware of the tribulations of others, how can we feel compassion for them?

Again, more cautious yet, 'pain' of the sensible/bodily order is surely another issue altogether? Without a sense of pain, we are at great risk of damaging the health and wellbeing of the organism, therefore this order of pain has its place. Pain, in this sense, is saying 'there's something wrong' whether it be a disorder, a natural process, or that you're sitting too close to the fire...

A question - the Buddha and Bodhisatvas are invariably shown smiling (or frowning?) - is there any tradition of a Buddha weeping?

Surely, as I understand it, the Buddha sorrowed at the state of the world?

And if there is no pain, there is no joy?

Thomas

 

[seattlegal]

(Many Christian masters have highlighted 'detachment' as a principial virtue - the Greek is apathea - which is the 'detachment' of the self from the world. The source of the disorder in the apetites/passions lies in the attachment to things.)
<...>
And if there is no pain, there is no joy?

Apathy is not usually associated with joy.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I agree, the Greek 'apathea' means 'lack of emotion', joy is most certainly an emotion. Ego thelli sto xasa para polly ke den thelli ti apathea.

TE

 

[Bandit]

i count my suffering as joy

 

[Thomas]

Apathea as a theological (and philosophical) term is more accurately 'detachment', at worst 'disinterest' - 'apathy' is derived from the term, but its current meaning is far from the philo/theological understanding.

Its origin lies in Stoic philosophy.

Thomas

 

[Tao_Equus]

Apathea as a theological (and philosophical) term is more accurately 'detachment', at worst 'disinterest' - 'apathy' is derived from the term, but its current meaning is far from the philo/theological understanding.

Its origin lies in Stoic philosophy.

Thomas

Fair enough

TE

 

[rdwillia]

Wow, this thread has taken on a life of it's own! I believe Samabudhi and Ciel have said perfectly what I would have. With that being said;

Interesting! I believe this is what medical professionals call "shock." One of the treatments for it consists of talking to the person, in order to try to "keep them in their body." One would have to be well-practiced in order to maintain this state without putting the body into peril. People sometimes die from shock.

Seattlegal, I'm not sure, but I feel like I might be picking up on some sarcasm here and in your last comment, it's difficult to tell in text form. I sincerely hope I'm not coming across as being arrogant. Compared to a lot, I have suffered very little, though I am fully aware of the phenomena of shock. I must defend Samabudhi's clarification that there is a huge difference between someone in shock and a Bodhisattva. As he mentioned a Bodhisattva is very aware. A Bodhisattva is not in a virtually mindless state of attempted survival, he/she simply considers themselves as the lowest of all and is able to detach him/herself from being affected by the pain that they very much feel.

The idea of the Bodhisattva is a large portion of Mahayana Buddhism. I'm not prepared to defend the idea of, nor do I want to force beliefs upon others about what a Bodhisattva is, but wanted to share what I thought to be helpful advice to those who already "buy into" it.

to never have pain would make us not human & not be able to relate.

without pain we would not know, what no pain is & we would not be having this discussion. even in love there can be pain. loving ourselves & loving others is possible to do & i guess if we loved each other the same way we love ourselves, there may not be as much pain. but i think contrast is a good thing & it took me years to figure that out.

Hi Bandit, It's only through suffering through many countless lives, since beginningless time and unexhaustable compassion, that a Bodhisattva has been able to overcome personal pain and suffering in the first place. And therefore you do have and equaling factor. You have endless suffering... until now! The contrast is there because the only reason someone would vow to become a Bodhisattva is because they have experienced seemingly endless suffering.

this seems to me like one would stop experiencing if he is entirely 'beyond' & it appears to be a bit of a self centered & cheating yourself approach, perhaps with out realizing.?

One would stop experiencing if they so desired, but the whole idea of a Bodhisattva is that they become liberated and are able to skillfully pick and choose their "attachments". Because they have been liberated, they choose the conditions of their rebirth, they come back to help us along the path.

It's very interesting, I have heard others refer to the Bodhisattva's approach as being self-centered. Please don't take this as an attack but that completely goes against the whole idea. The idea is to almost forget the 'self' all together. If one is not doing this, they're not a Bodhisattva. Have we completely, this day in age, given up on the idea of someone working solely for the benefit of others? Although I know exactly what you mean, I definitely don't feel that we're cheating ourselves if we're not suffering. Yes, we can learn a great deal from our suffering but eventually we want to get out of it, especially if we want to be of any real benefit to others. I, right now can't really help anyone on a large scale or possibly even a small one. But if I become enlightened, I can offer a great deal of real help.

Again, more cautious yet, 'pain' of the sensible/bodily order is surely another issue altogether? Without a sense of pain, we are at great risk of damaging the health and wellbeing of the organism, therefore this order of pain has its place. Pain, in this sense, is saying 'there's something wrong' whether it be a disorder, a natural process, or that you're sitting too close to the fire...

Hello Thomas, of course you must take everything into consideration. You wouldn't want to go around cutting off fingers or sitting too close to the fire to make your point. This body is our vehicle and yes, we must take care of it to the best of our ability. The idea is that you wouldn't be ignoring these 'pain' warnings. The goal isn't really to not feel pain (I should have worded my original post more carefully) but to passify it. If you were sitting too close to the fire you would still feel it and know to get away from it. But if you were for some reason forced to sit too close, you could passify the pain because you would have completely destroyed any self-cherishing so that there would be no basis for suffering. If you really didn't praise yourself, you would be utterly unimportant and you wouldn't feel hurt when your body is being injured. So is the plan anyway.

Thank you everyone!

~rdwillia