US gun culture

[iBrian]

We Brits simply do not have a clue about why America has this big thing about gun culture.

In Britain, guns are viewed as military weapons. Maybe they were necessary in US civilian society when faced with imminent invasion by the British in the late 1700s and early 1800s - not to mention defending the self against frontier lawlessness. But those days are long gone, aren't they?

Perhaps someone should update the US Constitution into the 21st century, rather than try to preserve an 18th century dream in an 18th century way.

Of course, though, that would be Federal Oppression of the masses.

 

[Nogodnomasters]

American men have very small penises. They must buy big guns and fast cars to compensate. The men with large members stayed in Europe, those with small ones came to America in hopes of being a big fish in a little pond. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin were all what we call "needle men."

Those with large members were made into slaves. Oriental men were brought over for labor and to allow the white man to feel big.

Don't you watch South ParK?

 

[mikie8]

the gun culture and the right to bear arms came as slaves were set free

one oppression lead to another

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste brian,

thank you for the post.

despite what you may have heard, the gun culture of america is a bit more complex than it appears at first.

in my opinion, the primary reason that america is gun oriented is due to how the nation came about. as you know, the revolution was a pretty big deal here in any event... one of the underlying themes there was a feeling of oppression by a government that had no concern for it's citizens.

the constitution, as you know, clearly spells out the right to keep and bear arms. for what reason?

primarily, this was included so that the citizens of the country would have a means of revolt should the government ever try to become a despotic regime... it is, difficult, to fight for freedom if you only have garden tools to use.

couple all of this with the "wildness" of the country during its founding and you'll have good idea of why it was that it started.

which has no bearing on why it's prevelant today.

that one is, in my opinion, a bit more tough to answer.

i'll have to take nogodnomasters word on it about penis sizes, though as a theory, it leaves a lot to be desired.

i think that there are two primary motivations underlying the continued gun use in america... leaving aside the constititional right to bear arms (though some people do own weapons simply for that reason).

there are legitimate reasons to have a firearm in america, mostly i can think of hunting and various law enforcement types. now.. it should be noted that a great many people own personal firearms that cannot be used for hunting, like a pistol (yes, i know that you can in some instances, but we're being general here) or an assault rifle, for instance.

generally speaking, these folks own firearms for personal protection. unbeknownst to them, however, is that of the people that get shot, a very large precentage are shot with their own weapon.

personally, for home protection, it's hard to top 3' of sharpened steel and a will to use it.

 

[mikie8]

lets look at the facts :

the us divided into seperate countries and this lead to the civil war .most weapons in the first part of the cival war were imports from europe , muskeets with little acuracy and gun powder not cheap enuff for practice shooting . by the middle of the cival war the rifle was invented and the US made many weapons . from memory i think in one year about 140 new weapon pattents were registered in one year during the cival war .anyhoo after the war there were many ppl trained to shoot and many were used to killing americans too . murder increaded alot compared to the years b4 the war and no not in the wild west which was not as wild as hollywood will lead us to believe , although billy the kid was insane he only killed three ppl the rest is pure drama .so after the war ppl found many uses for weapons mainly hunting but also the fact that black people where free in most states (atlanta had to resign to constitution b4 the 1984 olympics to include freedom for all ) ppl started up gun clubs as a right to defend themselves due to the risk (paranoia) of a black uprising (many in the south) .

 

[Anzac]

Just watch Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" for a general appraisal on the subject as the NRA and the KKK are more closely linked than it appears on the surface.

As for American gun culture, look no further than action blockbusters. I recently was forced to go and watch "Bad Boys 2" with a few friends of mine and that sums it up in principle for me. Not only do they promote the use of guns, it is seen as cool and appropriate to carry a gun (or guns) and the fact that they kill people on sight without asking any questions or moving for any investigation spells it all.

It is the American "culture" of "shoot first; ask questions later" that sparks most of it off. For instance, if there is the slightest possibility that someone might maybe just have something against them, they move to remove the threat first and then ask about it afterwards. This is promoted in just about every US blockbuster I have seen (in fact, I can't think of one that doesn't).

In Europe people watch the films and think the same thing, except they can't go out and buy guns. The highest rate of gun crime in the UK is amongst the youth - and there are very few deaths related to guns.

In Canada they are allowed to buy firearms and they watch the same films so why don't they go out and buy guns and shoot each other? Becuase they don't have to - their modern nation was formed in the sixteenth century and all you'd ever need a gun for was to kill deer (which in itself is slight promotion) or for personal use. There is no direct need to shoot someone and ask questions later when you can ask the question "why do you resort to guns"?

In the US by this point, they would have shot them before they ask them that. The "zero tolerance" crime idea glorifies this by shooting all the "criminals there and then, no questions asked" at the crime scene. This is why I believe US gun culture to be a severe problem because they have the capacity to go out and buy firearms and shoot their neighbour rather than settle the dispute by normal means. It is that idea that echoes in US foreign policy and in turn cycles round to the cinemas and people of the nation.

As an endnote I'm not saying that watching violent films is making everyone shoot each other, I'm saying that it is an echo of what the US policy is on "shoot first and ask questions later". It is the idea of "us and them" in partnership with this that escalates the situation.

 

[Vajradhara]

a tidbit from the news...

Namaste all,

GEUDA SPRINGS, Kan. (AP) - Residents of this tiny south-central Kansas community have passed an ordinance requiring most households to have guns and ammunition. Noncomplying residents would be fined $10 under the ordinance, passed 3-2 earlier this month by City Council members who thought it would help protect the town of 210 people. Those who suffer from physical or mental disabilities, paupers and people who conscientiously oppose firearms would be exempt. "This ordinance fulfills the duty to protect by allowing each individual householder to provide for his or her protection," said Councilman John Brewer. "This is simply using the U.S. Constitution - Second Amendment in particular - to the city of Geuda Springs' advantage."
Geuda Springs has no local police force; the Sumner County Sheriff's department is responsible for policing the area. Sheriff Gerald Gilkey said the ordinance makes him concerned for the safety of his officers. "This throws up red flags," he said. The town's city attorney, Thomas Herlocker, also opposes the measure, which has not taken effect because it has yet to be published. He said he plans to ask the council to reverse itself on the issue. The council meets next on Dec. 1. Whitney Watson, a spokesman for Attorney General Phill Kline, declined to comment on the legality of such an ordinance, which is similar to one passed in Kennesaw, Ga., 21 years ago that is still in effect. Many Geuda Springs residents refused to talk about it, and others were tightlipped, saying outsiders should stay out of it. "It's nobody's business but our own," said Phillip Russell, who owns a motorcycle shop in the town. "Everybody out of town is making this their business."

 

[Chronicles]

Interesting stuff - I wonder if Okieniexile has a particular take on this, as this seems towards his own "neck of the woods".

 

[SocratesLite]

Has the whole world been brain-washed by Michael Moore? I feel i have to add my .02 here as a member of the "Gun Culture" as it is so eloquently put. Lets look past the spin here for a minute:

Mr. Moore and the rest of his crowd fail to mension several important things about gun crime in America. In 1999 there were 8,481 gun MURDERS (note MURDERS rather than gun "deaths"). 7,268 of these were comitted in urban areas (which tend to have the strictest gun control laws). Of the original figure of 8,481 gun murders, 57% were commited by african americans under the age of 24 (but Mr. Moore and the rest of the lefties would never EVER mention that). Beyond that 81% were commited with firearms that were not legally aquired in the first place. Factor all of this in together and you can see that stereotypical members of the "Gun Culture" (white, god-fearing, legal-gun-owning rednecks) kill no more people every year than you nancy-boy europeans do.

Going even further...

Top 3 Cities with the strictest gun laws in the US:
1.Washington DC
2.Los Angeles
3.Chicago IL

Highest Gun Murder Rates (drum-roll please)
1.Detroit
2.Washington DC
3.Los Angeles

Some points to ponder....

1. In the years since Britain's gun ban....
-Armed Robbery Up 51%
-Gun Crime in general up 43%

2. Australia
-Armed Robbery up 17%
-Gun Crime in general up 21%

And not to sound like a myopic, short sighted, blustering, unilateralist American but...

When you guys save the world from fascism (and communism for that matter), land on the moon, invent the airplane, maintain a 10.5 trillion dollar a year economy after a MAJOR terrorist attack, and still have time to build the most capable and deadly military the world has ever seen, then you can comment on how we should deal with our own damn violence problem.

Night all.

 

[Vajradhara]

And not to sound like a myopic, short sighted, blustering, unilateralist American but...

When you guys save the world from fascism (and communism for that matter), land on the moon, invent the airplane, maintain a 10.5 trillion dollar a year economy after a MAJOR terrorist attack, and still have time to build the most capable and deadly military the world has ever seen, then you can comment on how we should deal with our own damn violence problem.

Night all.

Namaste SocratesLite,

welcome to the forum!

by the by.. everytime i see the name Socrates i keep hearing it pronounced "So-Krates" eh.. moive meme at work.

in any event. i'm going to have to disagree with you about the military aspect. Israel has a more deadly and capable military than America does, though i'd be willing to have a discussion on this issue with you, if you'd like.

as for communism... tell you what... once you get it out of China, then we can call it "defeated". same for fascism for that matter...

 

[BlueCanary]

I can only give you the reasons I have for using guns, I cannot speak for anyone else:

I started shooting at about age 13. At that time my friend was on a local .22 rifle team for people ages 18 and under. I decided to give it a try, since it seemed like a cool hobby/sport to take up. Riflery appeals to me as a sport because it is more a function of concentration and practice then of raw strength or speed. I also find it extremely relaxing. My shooting has nothing to do with violence (or the size of my penis). It's simply a fun sport, like any other (it is an olympic sport, as is I believe the biathalon, a combination of riflery and cross-country skiing). I don't actually own a gun now, as I am away at college, with no place to shoot, but have taken up archery instead.

Another totally legitimate use of guns is hunting, and although I don't hunt, I do fish which I see as comparable. In America guns aren't necessarily viewed only as military weapons. And to say that we are obsessed with our "gun culture" because of it, seems as silly as to say the brits are too into their "soccer culture". Hunting and sport shooting is more popular in America, this could be due to our "fronteir" beginnings or the fact that we have large rural areas, I don't know.

Yes, I know many people see me, and others who use guns responsibly as a minority or the exception to the rule, but we're not. The facts are that most people who buy guns legally use them responsibly, most people who use them for violence acquire them illegally, and target shooting as a sport is far safer than football, baseball, basketball, and soccer statistically.

Some people do have guns for personal protection, and while I wouldn't buy a gun for that reason, I wouldn't seek to deny someone else the opportunity to do so. While statistics may say that someone has more of a chance to be shot with their own gun then shoot an intruder, doesn't the individual have the right to assess the risks for themsleves?

The steroetype of the the gun-crazed hick who "shoots first and asks questions later" is nothing but a fanciful invention in my experience. Believing this is like watching a couple of westerns and then deciding all americans must be gun-slinging cowboys. Also, it is sometimes used by the left in this country to make their argument for gun-control legislation.

I'll close by saying that I don't believe americans should have the right to buy huge, fully-automatic guns and the like, just regular old rifles, pistols, and shotguns. I also realize that many in the NRA seem incapable of making the distinction between a reasonable gun and a massively unecessary gun. But many on the gun-control side are just as incapable of making this distinction.

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

*gives Blue Canary a standing ovation*

That is so true, at least in my opinion. Heck, if Person A wants to kill somebody, s/he doesn't NEED a gun. I was just perusing Crime Library.com (http://www.crimelibrary.com) and read about a really creapy case (forewarning: this site is about TRUE CRIME and is not for the squeamish or for those who aren't allowed on such sites.) The majority of the crimes presented on this site were NOT committed with a gun.

My apologies to everybody (especially the moderator of this forum) if this particular post could be considered under the "banned" listing, but I'll leave it up to your discression (sp?) on whether to edit or not and I'll take the consequences.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Chronicles]

Que? Why on earth would you think you would be banned??

 

[Nogodnomasters]

Namaste all,

GEUDA SPRINGS, Kan. (AP) - Residents of this tiny south-central Kansas community have passed an ordinance requiring most households to have guns and ammunition. Noncomplying residents would be fined $10 under the ordinance, passed 3-2 earlier this month by City Council members who thought it would help protect the town of 210 people. Those who suffer from physical or mental disabilities, paupers and people who conscientiously oppose firearms would be exempt. "This ordinance fulfills the duty to protect by allowing each individual householder to provide for his or her protection," said Councilman John Brewer. "This is simply using the U.S. Constitution - Second Amendment in particular - to the city of Geuda Springs' advantage."
Geuda Springs has no local police force; the Sumner County Sheriff's department is responsible for policing the area. Sheriff Gerald Gilkey said the ordinance makes him concerned for the safety of his officers. "This throws up red flags," he said. The town's city attorney, Thomas Herlocker, also opposes the measure, which has not taken effect because it has yet to be published. He said he plans to ask the council to reverse itself on the issue. The council meets next on Dec. 1. Whitney Watson, a spokesman for Attorney General Phill Kline, declined to comment on the legality of such an ordinance, which is similar to one passed in Kennesaw, Ga., 21 years ago that is still in effect. Many Geuda Springs residents refused to talk about it, and others were tightlipped, saying outsiders should stay out of it. "It's nobody's business but our own," said Phillip Russell, who owns a motorcycle shop in the town. "Everybody out of town is making this their business."

I lived in Kennesaw, Ga of this infamous ordinance. It was never enforced, so the law, which is clearly unconstitutional is never challenged. The idea was that is it was known every household had a gun, homes would not get broken into. If someone chose to disobey the law and not have a gun, no one cared.

Of course I do remember one story where a father and son had an argument in Kennesaw, both took their legally required weapon and shot each other dead while Mom got to watch.

"There's a town in Georgia with a law on the books
that says if we have guns we won't have crooks

What could make them think that way
What could make them act that way..."
-Dead Milkmen

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by The Fool
Que? Why on earth would you think you would be banned??

Not me, but the site. It is very gruesome (posting things about cannibalism, sex crimes, a few other things like that.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[iBrian]

The site is an info site, and there's nothing graphic on the homepage. I even know what Ted Bundy looks like now!

And thanks for that, Nogodnomasters - ever I find the USA a strange place indeed.

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

broad picture

This may sound simplistic.

U.S. gun culture. This is one country at present with the potentials for the quick complete and irremediable extinction of mankind and even life on earth for most species at least.

However this country is still civilized enough to look for acceptable pretexts in the use of its violence potentials, acceptable to other nations in terms of some traditional tenets of civilization and humanistic values.

The lesson to be learned here? If you want to be at the top you have got to acquire the capacity for the greatest of violence on others. Until then you can go the way of religion and talk about nirvana and going to the kingdom of God, post death.

Now, another question: Are Americans the happiest people on earth? Obviously they must be; so many want to get into their country and join them, and they are willing to risk death to get inside.

What about Muslim religionists like the followers of Osama bin Laden? who want to bring down the great Satan that is the USA for them? Sour grapes? So that they will be the next USA but with a Muslim veneer?

Susma Rio Sep

 

[Zazen]

gatts

Guns are a neccesity imho, although there is a problem with the sheer number of guns in this WORLD, not just USA but in this world there are so many guns, its like they outnumber the population almost..or atleast it feels that way, i know for damn sure theres more bullets then people

anyway, i think gun laws at present are underpar, but there isnt much you can do without going against the constitution which is a big no no in my book..

to me, i want to know that if there ever comes a time of anarchy or chaos, political agendas gone awry*cough* patriot act *cough*, i know id feel alot better that id be armed and able to defend myself and whomever else..

but there is a gun problem in the us, i mean im only 19 but i know atleast 3 different people i could get just about all kinds of guns off of if i really wanted, and thats nothing really cause everyone has guns here

i dont think that death by guns is as bad as the fact that guns are so easy to get a hold of, death happens one way or another it really isnt guns fault that people get murdered and stuff so often, sure it makes it easier to kill but, still irregardless if you wanna kill someone your gonna find a way to do it, its just circumstances really

i dunno who it was who said it but, israel has a more powerful military then the us? are you kidding me? has anyone here even served in the military? its funny there are bigger armys in the world then the U.S. korea..china..probably russia to but that still doesnt make them stronger, imho what makes our military so strong is the fact we are always 3 steps ahead of everyone else, conventionally it really is just a fact that the U.S. has the most powerful military, but then again not everyone fights conventionally..

amitabha

 

[iBrian]

its funny there are bigger armys in the world then the U.S. korea..china..probably russia to but that still doesnt make them stronger, imho what makes our military so strong is the fact we are always 3 steps ahead of everyone else, conventionally it really is just a fact that the U.S. has the most powerful military, but then again not everyone fights conventionally..

amitabha

Hi zazen and welcome to CR.

Certainly different militaries, are and always have been, of different calibres.

For example, the Russian Army used to work on the principle of simply steamrollering with numbers, and that accurate firing was not as important an issue as much as the rate of fire. By that I mean the Russians were interested in havnig a large conscripted army that could spray a large area with bullets - hopefully destroying the enemy.

The British, on the other hand, believe in a small and highly specialised professional army, where quality is far more important than quantity. I'm under the impression that the US armed forces work on a similar theory.

Interesting point you raised there, zazen - and one I'd not considered before. Basically, by allowing the civillian population to be armed, you ensure that the government cannot become outright dictatorial. Hence "the people" represented a threat to attempts at totalitarian government. And liberal concerns would therefore represent a threat to the safety of that system by presenting an ideal tool for the disarmament of the public, and thus allow the eradication of the democratic and constitutional rights of the citizens of the United States of America?

Hm...I think I'm finally seeing the logic of the situation here, which is otherwise quite hard from here in the UK.

 

[iBrian]

PS - Hi SocratesLite and welcome to CR as well.

I would certainly be interested in seeing your point put across more to explain your perception of the logic of gun issues, both current, past, and possible future - should you wish to. We're not against the civil expression of opinion here, you know.