How does Hagar become Mt Sinai in Arabia?

[InChristAlways]

Re: The real beginning?

I have a question, which may have been asked here already, I don’t know. What’s the beginning of Islam? Does is start with Muhammad or does it start when Abraham kicked Hagar and Ishmael out of their tribe (Geneses 21 in Christian bible)? The book that I read by Huston Smith said that it started with Hagar and Ishmael but many other places, such as sites on the internet, say that it started with Muhammad. I’m really confused!

I would also like to ask how muslims view this passage in the Christian new testament concerning "Hagar" since the poster brought her up.

There has been a lot of debate on this, but I have really never seen how Islam would interpret this. How does Hagar become Mt Sinai in Arabia as Paul does say it is "alleghorical".
Mt Sinai is only mentioned 4 times in the NT and I really would like to discuss this with muslims if they are interested. Thanks and Peace to all.
Steve

Galatian 4:24 which things are symbolic/alleghory. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai [#4614 "thorny"] which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Friend]

Greeting to all here

According to Muslim beliefs Islam started with the dawn of time. God descended Adam (Prophet Adam in Islam) to the earth with the clear message of faith, that message is called Islam, meaning "Submission to God". Over the years God kept adding different points to this religion through Prophets, who were assigned the duty of preaching this message to people of the earth in different areas. People had the tendency to keep forgetting and altering the original religion, therefore God had to remind people about true and original faith through prophets. According to Muslim beliefs, God did not establish new religion with every new prophet; instead God revitalized the same original message through prophets.

About how HaJar be there in Arabia land ..as my understanding of your question let us started his story with Hager from the beginning .
Only a woman named Sarah and a man named Lot believed in Allah, and followed Ibrahim. He realized that nobody else would listen to him, and decided to emigrate for the cause of Allah, and to spread His Message elsewhere. Before leaving, he tried once again to convert his father to Islam, but to no avail. Ibrahim said to his father and his people: "We are free of you and of whatever you worship besides Allah. We have rejected you and there has arisen between us and you enmity and hatred forever unless you believe in Allah and Him alone."

Ibrahim, Lot and Sarah started their long travel. They crossed Babylon, went through Syria and Palestine calling people to Allah, helping the poor and doing good deeds. By that time Ibrahim married Sarah. Their hope was to have children who would spread the Message of Allah after their death. As for Lot, he emigrated to the land of Sodom and settled there.

Time went by and no children were born to Sarah. She realized she was sterile. She accepted her fate and submitted to the will of Allah. Ibrahim and Sarah moved to Egypt where the king gave Sarah a woman to be her servant. The woman's name was Hajar. Sarah was seeing Ibrahim' s hair getting white, and it grieved her to see his chance of having any child slipping away. She offered Hajar her servant as a wife to her husband, and prayed Allah to bless Hajar and Ibrahim with a child. And so came Ismail, a baby boy born to Hajar. How unselfish Sarah was! For her, the need to have an offspring who would carry the Message after Ibrahim was greater than her pride. Fourteen years later Allah rewarded Sarah with a son, Ishaq in spite of her old age.


Ibrahim woke up one day and asked Hajar to prepare herself and baby Ismail for a long travel. Ibrahim and Hajar kept walking, crossed a fertile land followed by barren mountains till they arrived at the Arabian desert. Ibrahim brought Hajar to a high hill called al-Marwa, made her and her baby sit under a tree, placed a bag of dates and some water near her, and set out homeward. Hajar ran after him and said: "Are you going to leave us in this desert where there is no one to keep us company?" She repeated this many times but he would not look back at her. She asked: "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said yes. "Then He will not neglect us." She said. Ibrahim walked away until he got out of their sight, he raised his hands and prayed Allah: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley with no cultivation, by Your Sacred House, in order that they may offer prayers. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and provide them with fruits, so that they may give thanks."

Hajar went on nursing Ismail and drinking from the water until it was all used up. She became very thirsty and the child was crying. She left him on the al-Marwa hill and hurried to the nearest hill, as-Safa. She stood there and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She descended from as-Safa, crossed the valley running and reached al-Marwa hill. She stood and started looking but could see nobody. She kept running between as-Safa and al-Marwa seven times. When she reached al-Marwa for the last time, she was exhausted, she sat next to the baby. Then she heard a voice. She stood up and said: "O whoever you might be! Have you got something to help me?' She saw an angel, Angel Jibreel, digging the earth until water flowed ! She built a little basin around it. She scooped water with her hands, drank, filled her water-skin, and nursed her baby. The place from which water flowed was Zamzam. Muslims till this day drink from the holy water of Zamzam, and during Hajj they walk between as-Safa and al-Marwa seven times to commemorate this event.


Some Arabs traveling through Makkah saw birds flying around alMarwa. "They must be flying around water." They said. When they arrived at the water, they found Hajar and asked her: "Would you allow us to stay with you, and use the water from your well?" She agreed and was pleased by their company.

The people sent for their families, settled there and became permanent residents. The whole valley became alive. Ismail grew up, learned Arabic, and later married a woman from amongst the Arabs.


Meanwhile, Ibrahim who had not seen his son since he was a baby, came back to Makkah to visit him. Upon arriving, he heard that Hajar had died, but Ismail was still living there. Ibrahim was yearning to see his son whom he loved and missed a lot. He saw Ismail under a tree near Zamzam, sharpening his arrows. When he saw his father, Ismail rose up, hugged him and greeted him. It was the happiest moment for both father and son. But Allah wanted to put them to test, and it was a tough test indeed. During one night, Ibrahim had a dream. He came to Ismail and said: "O my son ! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you as a sacrifice to Allah, so what do you think?" They both realized that this was an order from Allah. Ismail said without hesitation: "Do what you are commanded, you shall find me very patient insha Allah." They had both submitted to the will of Allah. Ibrahim laid his son prostrate, put his forehead on the ground and directed a sharp knife towards his neck. At this very moment, Allah called him: "O Ibrahim! You have fulfilled the dream! Thus do We reward the good doers !" A big sheep was sent down from heaven to be slaughtered instead of Ismail, which Ibrahim did, and they both had a big celebration that day. This event is celebrated every year by all Muslims. It is Eid al-Adha where we slaughter the sacrificial sheep.

Ibrahim and Ismail kept on calling people to worship Allah. At that time there was no place built for the worship of Allah. Ibrahim wished there could be such a place where people would be in peace, and concentrate solely for the worship of Allah. His wish was answered when Allah ordered him to build the Sacred House, the Ka'bah. Ibrahim said to Ismail: "O Ismail, Allah has given me an order, will you help me execute it?" "Yes I will." Ismail said. "Allah has ordered me to build a house here." He said, pointing to a hillock higher than the land surrounding it. They went towards the place and started building the foundations of the Ka'bah Ismail brought the stones and Ibrahim built the walls, and when the walls became high, Ismail brought a large stone and put it in front of his father who stood over it and carried on building, while Ismail was handing him the stones. Both of them went on building and going around the Ka'bah, saying: "O our Lord accept this service from us." When they finished the building, Angel Jibreel descended from heaven and showed Ibrahim the rituals of Hajj. Then Ibrahim stepped on the stone and called on people: "O people obey your Lord." This large stone which Ibrahim stepped on is still there to this day near the Ka'bah. It is called Makam Ibrahim.

Thus ends the story of Ibrahim, the father of the prophets. From him descended all the prophets who came later, including Muhammad, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam. Ibrahim devoted all his life calling others to the True religion: Islam.

May be I didn't understand what you want from your question..but this is The Islamic perception about the HaJar status in Prophet Ibrahem life .


Allah forgive and bless All honest people

Sorry for this tall reply

 

[InChristAlways]

I would also like to ask how muslims view this passage in the Christian new testament concerning "Hagar" since the poster brought her up.

There has been a lot of debate on this, but I have really never seen how Islam would interpret this. How does Hagar become Mt Sinai in Arabia as Paul does say it is "alleghorical".
Mt Sinai is only mentioned 4 times in the NT and I really would like to discuss this with muslims if they are interested. Thanks and Peace to all.
Steve

Galatian 4:24 which things are symbolic/alleghory. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai [#4614 "thorny"] which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

About how HaJar be there in Arabia land ..as my understanding of your question let us started his story with Hager from the beginning .
Only a woman named Sarah and a man named Lot believed in Allah, and followed Ibrahim. He realized that nobody else would listen to him, and decided to emigrate for the cause of Allah, and to spread His Message elsewhere. Before leaving, he tried once again to convert his father to Islam, but to no avail. Ibrahim said to his father and his people: "We are free of you and of whatever you worship besides Allah. We have rejected you and there has arisen between us and you enmity and hatred forever unless you believe in Allah and Him alone."

Ibrahim, Lot and Sarah started their long travel. They crossed Babylon, went through Syria and Palestine calling people to Allah, helping the poor and doing good deeds. By that time Ibrahim married Sarah. Their hope was to have children who would spread the Message of Allah after their death. As for Lot, he emigrated to the land of Sodom and settled there.

Thank you friend. I would like to open this topic to any religion that believes in the NT and of course that would mean the Inspired writings of Paul, the Christian Apostle/Prophet.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

I had placed this in the muslim forum but it got moved here, so I will go ahead and open it up to anyone that would like to give their view on Galatian 4. Peace.
Steve

 

[lunamoth]

Thank you friend. I would like to open this topic to any religion that believes in the NT and of course that would mean the inspired writing of Paul the Apostle. I had placed this in the muslim forum but it got moved here, so I will go ahead and open it up to anyone that would like to give their view on Galatian 4. Peace.
Steve

Hi InChristAlways,

I'm not aware of any other religion that takes the whole of Paul's writings as God-inspired other than in Christianity. I believe you have already heard the Islamic view of Paul here. Baha'is view Paul as inspired wherever his writings confirm Baha'i theology, but otherwise view them as metaphorical or lesser than words attributed to Jesus. Even in Christianity there are many who outright reject Paul, although I think this puts them very much in the 'alternative' Christian catagory.

As for Galatians 4, Paul says clearly:

24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants.

I think he is talking about the law under the old covenant and freedom from the (letter of the) law in the new covenant in Christ. The 'present Jerusalem' would be the Hebrew Jerusalem of Paul's day, meaning those still 'in slavery' to the law, while the Jerusalem above is the New Jerusalem, the New City of God, free from the (letter of the) law and the mother (one who is giving birth to) us all (all could be all Christians past and present, or, as I see it, everyone).

peace,
lunamoth

 

[InChristAlways]

I think he is talking about the law under the old covenant and freedom from the (letter of the) law in the new covenant in Christ. The 'present Jerusalem' would be the Hebrew Jerusalem of Paul's day, meaning those still 'in slavery' to the law, while the Jerusalem above is the New Jerusalem, the New City of God, free from the (letter of the) law and the mother (one who is giving birth to) us all (all could be all Christians past and present, or, as I see it, everyone).

I'm not aware of any other religion that takes the whole of Paul's writings as God-inspired other than in Christianity. I believe you have already heard the Islamic view of Paul here.

you are welcome InChristAlways
read and think about those quoted verses to see if Paul was prophet !!!!!

He said: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, (From the NIV Bible, 2 Timothy 3:16)"

How can his scriptures be all "God-breathed", when we clearly and irrefutably see nonsense in his book?

Thanks Luna. Most Messianic Christians also view Paul as False as they say he spoke against the Jews and Law of Moses to much. http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

There are a number of historical facts, quotations from Paul, and quotations from Yahshua recorded in the New Testament that leave us with some quite compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven. There are several interesting facts surrounding this case that should be noted and kept in mind. They are:

Perhaps this should be moved to the Christian forum instead?
Steve

 

[lunamoth]

Hi InChristAlways,

Oh no! There are already more than a couple threads debating Paul in the Christianity forum and the supermoderators here may choose to merge this thread with one of those, or simply close it here.

If you wish to discuss it further, perhaps you should give your view of Gal 4 and why it is of interest to anyone outside of Christianity.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[InChristAlways]

If you wish to discuss it further, perhaps you should give your view of Gal 4 and why it is of interest to anyone outside of Christianity.

peace,
lunamoth

John 4:21 confirms what Paul said in the NT about never again worshipping in "Jerusalem". The OT said Jerusalem would be "raised up" above the mountains, which implies a "spiritual" City, not a physical one.

Sometimes it is hard to explain Paul's prophecies without appearing to be "anti-judaism", but Jesus Himself did not come to bring a "physical" kingdom but a "spiritual" one and this would have more of a meaning to the jews of then and now, than us "gentiles". I feel Paul and the other epistles writers were explaining what Jesus meant during the short period He preached to the Lost Sheep of Israel.

I myself do not view the "physical" country of Israel or Jerusalem having any "spiritual" significance as far as how we worship God, so I actually view this in relation to the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus concerning the house/nation of Judah/Judea/Jerusalem [not Israel], of which this person did an excellent commentary on that parable. [hopefull more Bible scholars will study this important parable of Jesus]
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

I believe Daniel 12 is the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse on OC Judea/Jerusalem, and Josephus does describe that event in very gory details. I believe all of Paul is inspired but we have to compare it to the OT and what Jesus said, and Paul quoted from the Book of Isaiah often. Just my humble thoughts.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

How was Jerusalem in "bondage" and what was the purpose of Jesus coming to the people of Israel and Judah?

Galatian 4:24 which things are symbolic/alleghory. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai [#4614 "thorny"] which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage [#1398]with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

1398. douleuo dool-yoo'-o from 1401; to be a slave to (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary):--be in bondage, (do) serve(-ice).

Even Jesus lamented about Jerusalem here, about 40 yrs before the romans came and destroyed it as prophecied in Daniel and the OT prophets.

Matt 23:37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing...

I believe the book of revelation is showing that event and why I put a topic up on its "Inspiration" here as Paul's prophecies are dead on Accurate with that book of the Christian Bible:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4433