What is Zen?

Zazen said:
chan isnt where "buddhism met taoism" for one, buddhism was already in china before bodhidarma arrived

bodhidarma was NOT the first patriarch of chan he was i believe the 28th(going all the way back to buddha), i have the lineage somewhere but not going into that..

bodhidarma was the first patriarch of the chan lineage in china though

chan was brought to china via bodhidarma who settled down in shaolin temple(a buddhist temple founded by ba tuo)

chan, taoism and confucianism were all influential to each other and chan or "zen" has branched out to many different cultures other then china and japan

i personally liked vaj's first interpretation of chan, the lima bean though is usually replaced with a mango or some other kind of popular fruit

really chan is probably the most simple and direct of the buddhas teachings, it stresses direct experience over belief and the practitioners are to base nothing on faith alone

amitabha
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Namaste zazen,

actually.. it is exactly where the two met, according to my sources :)

i've got quite an interesting history on the two that i'd be happy to post if you are interested.

it will take me a little while to compose it all though.... it's quite long and involved.

when i'm speaking of the Patriarchs of Ch'an, i start at Bodhidharma, not Buddha and since Ch'an is a Chinese word, i presumed that was self evident :)
 
chan

"actually.. it is exactly where the two met, according to my sources :)"

get better sources

"i've got quite an interesting history on the two that i'd be happy to post if you are interested"

well..a history isnt neccesarily the history, but of course id love to hear what youve got to say..you dont have to post an article or anything just write what you can as concise as possible

regardless, historys and theorys and whatever can only go so far(while atttempting to expound truth about the subject at hand)

for example, there are some scholars who believe chan was originated from taoism, because of their similarities, but thats just a superficial understanding of the subject really and bad scholarship imho

"when i'm speaking of the Patriarchs of Ch'an, i start at Bodhidharma, not Buddha and since Ch'an is a Chinese word, i presumed that was self evident"

i dont understand why youd presume that when chan is just a word, the direct heart to heart transmission is what matters, not the word which was translated from sanskrit used to describe the shaolin monks spiritual cultivation

amitabha
 
Zazen said:
"actually.. it is exactly where the two met, according to my sources :)"

get better sources
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namaste zazen,

thanks for the post.

my sources are quite good on this as they are the actual Taoist texts that reflect the changes.

"i've got quite an interesting history on the two that i'd be happy to post if you are interested"

well..a history isnt neccesarily the history, but of course id love to hear what youve got to say..you dont have to post an article or anything just write what you can as concise as possible

regardless, historys and theorys and whatever can only go so far(while atttempting to expound truth about the subject at hand)
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you are correct, they are histories of the texual development of Taoist texts and thus are only relevant to that subejct, however, it becomes quite clear when one has an understanding of the Ch'an Sutras and compares the useage of certain symbols in the Taoist texts. i shall endeavor to complete the post in a timely fashion :)

i dont understand why youd presume that when chan is just a word, the direct heart to heart transmission is what matters, not the word which was translated from sanskrit used to describe the shaolin monks spiritual cultivation

amitabha
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er.. since the word "Ch'an" is Chinese the presumtion in the discussion was that we were speaking of the lineage known as Ch'an, of which, Bodhidharma is said to be the first Patriarch. it is used in this case as a method to distinguish the Chinese from the Indian and Japanese flavors of this school, that is all.
 
If I may ( ;) Susma), the following is a quote from Hagakure, the Book of the Samurai, which I find very Zen:

"The proper manner of calligraphy is nothing other than not being careless, but in this way one's writing will simply be sluggish and stiff. One should go beyond this and depart from the norm. This principle applies to all things."

The essence of Zen, I feel, lies in the expression of the universal in the acute, microscopic details of mundane life. The idea is to jar people into realization with both absurdity and poignancy.
 
i had the honor of visiting this neat Zen temple in Bloomington Indiana this summer. i was expecting an imposing pagoda-like structure, and found this cool old mid-west farm house instead, with a little vegetable garden, and a few cats. i was expecting something totally different, and drove past it a few times. :rolleyes:

zen is forgetting the pagoda, and finding the farm house.
 
Vajradhara said:
namate all,

this is, perhaps, my favorite description of Zen...

If people ask me what Zen is like, I will say that it is like learning the art of burglary. The son of a burglar saw his father growing older and thought: "if he is unable to carry out his profession, who will be the breadwinner of this family? I must learn the trade." One night the father took the son to a big house, broke through the fence, entered the house, and opening one of the large chests, told the son to go in and pick out the clothing. As soon as he got into it, the lid was dropped and the lock securely applied. The father now came out to the courtyard, and loudly knocking at the door woke up the whole family, whereas he himself quietly slipped away. The residents got up and lighted candles, but found that the burglars had already gone. The whole time, the son remained in the chest, and thought of his cruel father. Then a fine idea flashed upon him. He made a noise like the gnawing of a rat. When the lid was unlocked, out came the prisoner and fled. Noticing a well by the road, he picked up a large stone and threw it into the water. The pursuers gathered around the well trying to find the burglar drowning himself. By then, he was safely back in the house with his father, whom he blamed for his narrow escape. When the son told him of his adventures, the father remarked, "There, you have learned the art!"

D.T. Suzuki
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I... Liked that.
 
zen, as we know, is a short form of the word zazen, zazen is the practise of meditation, the word zazen supposedly comes from the chinese word ch'an, and is supposedly a corruption of the sanskrit word dhyana, dhya- thinking, na, not, sometimes said to be what meditation, and zazen is... or so I thought... supposedly, again, or so I thought, bodhidharma was reputedly the "first buddhist" in china, although bodhidharma was a theravadin, in theory, and so perhaps although what we find in zen, pure zen, is buddhism, there are many influences within zen buddhism which are not buddhist, in much the same way as buddhism in Tibet is influenced by Bon and the Buddha himself was influenced by hinduism...

what is zen?... here's my answer...

Being whacked with big sticks.
The sacred Japonica.
White socks.
Shinto kings.
buddha mind.
 
All things evolve...........
Buddha himself moved beyond influence.
Zen masters move beyond big sticks.

- c -
 
What is Zen?

This is Zen?..

There ain't no answer.
There ain't going to be an answer.
There never has been an answer.
That's the answer....... - Getrude Stein.


Loitering is Zen.
Eluding is Zen.
To stand ground, to flee.
The darkness the light.
Nothing, anything, anyone, everything.
Final request, first steps.
Undeinable Virtue...

- 17th.... lol How good or bad was that?
 
17th Angel said:
What is Zen?

This is Zen?..

There ain't no answer.
There ain't going to be an answer.
There never has been an answer.
That's the answer....... - Getrude Stein.
Click to expand...

Interesting 17th...... I remember reading that Gertrude Stein's final words were, 'What was the question?" :)

- c -
 
Yes, the story of the burglar teaching his "art" to his son is a good one. There is another shorter story which also points to the "meaning" and "nature" of Zen......

A Samurai goes to the Zen Master and asks:- "Teach me of heaven, teach me of hell"

The Zen Master spits in his eye.

The Samurai boils with rage at the insult, reaches for his sword and is about to run the Zen Master through the heart when the Master looks him in the eye and says:- "THAT is Hell"

The Samurai realises just what has been taught, and with a deep sense of gratitude re-sheaths his sword.

The Zen Master looks directly at him again and says:- "And THAT is heaven"

Frederick Franck, author of "The Zen of Seeing" has said that Zen is NOT:-

Mysticism
Calming the mind
Asceticism
A value system
An addition to Reality

I suppose in a sense it says that life is to be lived, not thought. That in fact it can only be lived and not thought!

Anyway, for those interested, I would recommend the essay "Mystics and Zen Masters" by Thomas Merton, from his book of essays published under the same title. He does ask the question "What is Zen" directly, and answers it in a way that accommodates itself to "Western" thinking............

Excerpts....."Like all forms of Buddhism, Zen seeks an 'enlightenment' which results from the resolution of all subject-object relationships in a pure void. But to call this void a mere negation is to reestablish the oppositions which are resolved in it."

"Zen is the ontological awareness of pure being beyond subject and object, an immediate grasp of being in its 'suchness' and 'thusness'"

Yet......."to suggest that it is 'an experience' which a 'subject' is capable of 'having' is to use terms that contradict the implications of Zen"

Anyway, enough! Hopefully no-one will now ask me for clarification of the terms used! I am merely passing on what I have read myself, hoping perhaps that it will help others.

:)
 
Hi,

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A zen story tells of a student who asked his master, "Please show me zen."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The master said, "I have to go relieve myself." [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Upon returning, the master said, "Zen is like going to the bathroom. I cannot go for you. You have to go for yourself."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- Zen Guitar - Philip Toshio Sudo[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]​
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]s.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​



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Zen is painting white on white walls.......
Can't tell where what was ends,
And what is begins.........

Only every things white right now.
Only every things right white now.

- c -
 
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