the Taus of Gobekli tepe

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by todd greaves, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. todd greaves

    todd greaves New Member

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    I am a published iconologist currently working on Tau Cross symbolism and Gobekli tepe has really rocked my world! My most recent paper (in number 14 of the journal Migration and Diffusion, Vienna) is devoted entirely to the subject of T-symbolism and its interhemispheric diffusion in ancient times. I have perhaps 250 examples collected from all major American and Eurasian cultures, and have been aware (for about a decade now) of the common occurrence of PAIRING where this symbol is concerned. So the discovert of a PAIR of stone Taus (similar to the Taulas of Menorca) with the date of c.9000BC is, for me, stunning. I would like to discuss this matter with anyone with a sincere interest and make available some of my research. Another paper on this subject is scheduled to appear in the journal PRE-COLUMBIANA and all my work has been through Ph.D review committees. The upshot is this: With almost no exceptions wherever we can observe the incipient processes of urbanization at work, the Tau is present in an iconographical, frequently architectural, context. Gobekli pushes the horizon of "urbanization" back thousands of years and, lo and behold: the Tau is there! Todd Greaves
     
  2. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    I have run into the Tau cross myself in my astrological research. There are two crosses in the heavens, the Northern and Southern, of which the Southern Cross seems to be of importance. My first use of the cross comes cirac 4000 BCE in Egypt as the cross arrows of Neith on her shield. Later the war god position was taken over Min, who again used the cross, as his symbol in a phallus representation. From this grew the Ankh as the cross represented the symbol of life. It combined the phallic symbol of Geb with the Yoni of Nut. In the Old Testament this constellation was used to sybolize the separation of Cain from society, later to be used as the mark of Cain in the Middle Ages. Tau was also used to symbolize Tammurz, however this is the Autumnal Equinox and has nothing to do with the Southern Cross.

    The Northern Cross, was the door posts carried off by Samson. Some claim this represented the polar axis, but most likely it represents the four seasons divided by the cardinal points. The blessing or "sign of the cross" still used by Catholics today is an upside number 4.
     
  3. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I'm afraid Gobekli Tepe was unknown to myself until a book review mentioned it in New Scientist magazine. I had actually been under the impression that the oldest cities were those such as Catal Hyuk and Jericho. So Gobekli Tepe was an astonishing eye-opener.

    I'm afraid I can't help specifically, but if you want to explore the topic further here, then I'm sure you'll find where your research intersects with the various specialist fields of members's, then illuminating exchange of information may follow.
     
  4. todd greaves

    todd greaves New Member

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    Hello- It seems that you are referring to the Syrian/Phoenician X-form Tau for the most part (the Southern Cross is based on 4 stars and cannot be construed as a T). The Tau to which I refer is T-shaped. The connection to phallic symbolism is a fallacy which none of the evidence supports. It arose during the 18th century and has been abandoned by all competent iconologists. The oval above the T which forms the familiar ankh is most likely a string, and the wearing of the Tau in this way (as an amulet for long life and health) is documented is several ancient cultures (including the Maya). I'm afraid your information reflects the current state of knowledge on this subject. Look up the Tau Cross in any standard reference of early symbolism and you will find a paragraph or two; I have written about 200 pages on it, only about a fifth of which have been published. But thanks for writing. Todd
     
  5. philippgrote

    philippgrote New Member

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    tau at Chauvet

    Hi Todd, there is a Tau in Chauvet Cave on a stalagmite painted in red, below a sign that I identify as a "womb" sign. It is a red sign that follows the outline of the upper part of the pelvis and shows an extension in the anatomical position of the vagina. There is a red double line next to these signs that resemble a vagina. These two lines are adjacent to a rock crevice that shows white calcite (a sign of water emmission from the rock). The cave seems to be holy to the bear (reincarnation: bears give birth while hybernating). The drawings in the cave are believed to be 30 to 32 thousand years old. Chauvet contains some of the oldest cave art in Europe. For references see Returning to Chauvet Cave by Jeam Clottes.
    I am very interested in prehistory. I have complex arguments for a cultural link between Neanderthal people and Cro-Magnon. I have reasons to believe that "culture" is a lot more ancient than anyone dare imagine at present. I would be very interested in your research concerning the Tau.
     
  6. Chronicles

    Chronicles New Member

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    Hi Phillip - and welcome to CR! You are more than welcome to sound out some of your ideas to a general audience here, should you wish to. :)

    Certainly it sounds like an interesting set of ideas, not least because of the general anti-neanderthal perceptions in pre-historical researches.
     
  7. philippgrote

    philippgrote New Member

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    anti-neanderthal

    I think Neanderthal was a culture not a species. There are in my opinion sufficient arguments to support the idea that human culture shapes the morphology of species not least it's own without corrupting DNA compatibility. The main argument for a Neanderthal species is hinged on 26 differences within skull morphology between sapiens sapiens and sapiens neanderthalensis. Ultimately Neanderthal sceletons represent very robust humans which is reflected in the morphology of the bones. The bulging bow ridges are common in all physically strong human ancestors and allow attachment of robust neck muscles such as needed when using the jaws a lot (ie chewing - more common in vegetarians since carnivores tend to rip off tissue and swallow it). Receding jaws are also a sign of strong neck muscles. There are experiments on rats whereby one side of the neck muscles are disconnected from the bow in a rat embrio. This side does not develop the bow ridge. Hence the shape of bones is dependend on exposure to the environment.
    If the Neanderthal were a culture then they show very interesting patterns of behaviour.
    They live in small groups (30 per 100 square kilometers/?), there is no sign of war or great cultural structures. This is to be expected since war and civilisation relies on large populations. I believe that large populations require warm periods whereas during ice ages life on earth is a lot more condensed (tropical belt) and a lot more sparse (polar hemispheres). It seems to me that the Neanderthal were very conscious of preserving their harmony with the environment. This seems to make sense for an exploitation of resources requires an abundance of it. It seems to me that Neanderthal culture was dominated by ritual. The 'hunting' of mature aurochs with wooden spears is non-sensical and appears more in context when seen in comparison with the Minoan bull dance or the Spanish bull fight.
    It seems a requirement for creating harmony in any environment to put oneself within the mind of those with who one shares it. I believe that shamanist practices that allowed the shaman to put him/herself in the mind of another species (wearwolves, vampires etc) usually for some benefit to the group dates at least right into the ice age.
    There has been a lot of discussion about the relationship between the size of the brain and intelligence. Little has been said (yet) about the sturcture of the human brain (which bears resemblance with many aquatic mammals >cortex) and the difference in human behaviour may be as old as the straight pelvis itself due to a fundamental change in lifestyle that affected the way the brain had to relate to its environment (which makes sense in the light of the drastic changes that occured within the pelvis 4-12 million years ago/?). Thus I think we should be open to the age and antiquity of human culture.
     
  8. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep New Member

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    Tau genitalology

    All very interesting and engrossing.

    Tau cross and phallus and vagina.

    "De pruriencia numquam sat, ab antiquitate et in saecula saeculorum."

    How natural.

    Wasn't it BBC which came out with a finding some years back that the ordinary British male thinks of sex practically 24 hours of the day?

    Well, it's not only British, but everyone. Present company not exempted.

    Just keep our thoughts private and to ourselves. And do other things in the meantime that our mind is not occupied with prurient matters.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New! Namaste eveyone.

    Susma Rio Sep

    PS To my vain self-commendation I don't keep a folder of net pornography. Hahahaha.
     
  9. todd greaves

    todd greaves New Member

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    tau cross

    Hello: Sorry to be so slow in responding; holidays, you know. Your observation is quite interesting, the moreso in that I have recently seen a female anatomy diagram in which the ovaries and their various tubes plus the birth canal looked "tau-like" to me. The Tau has four main meanings: eternal life/regeneration; rain/water; cardinal direction mountain; and door/gateway. The first and last could have a bearing here (the vagina being the Mother of All Doors, which leads from the nowhere into the here). As for Gobeklitepe: I have talked to a German archaeologist who has visited the site and he believes the 9000BC date to be exagerrated if not fraudulent. Second oldest Taus are four doors in the walls of a clay hut shrine from Yugoslavia, c.5750BC. Next are a set of T-shaped buildings at Samarra, Iraq, probably in the process of being pulverized by our misguided missiles, c. 5400BC. Bears: a skinned bear looks amazingly like a skinned human being, most especially the fore-paws. Like us, bears' feet and hands are different and the hind foot of the common black bear is very easily mistaken for human. Like us they can be bi-pedal, so naturally many ancients took them for totemic ancestors. Confrontations with cave bears produce awe of the "numinous" kind- a mixture of fear and admiration which some authorities identify as the primary "religious response." The night sky has a similar effect. Thanks again for your input; I'd love to see the picture. Todd
     
  10. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Crikey!!
     
  11. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep New Member

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    Pre-historic porno?

    If those folks were around today – and I suspect they were guys, they could be engaged in doing better lubricious scrawls with pen and paper, than on stone with crude blades. Reminds me of those school desks with scratches of the letter W with a hole in the center, done by boys for their own fantasy and with mischievous glee. And the bathrooms, on walls, with phallus and vaginas aplenty.

    Religious response? Occam’s razor, the simplest explanation: those guys were just obsessed with the female genitals when they were not occupied with their own. The beginning of anatomy study covering the sexual organs, always and ever a fascinating engrossment of guys over their own and of the women folks.

    Religious response? If they are with us today, and read what we are trying to make out of their crude scrapings and chippings, they would have a hilarious laugh at our expense.

    No offense intended, but see the apes in the zoo and the dogs we keep at home. Those guys of pre-history times and us today are no different.

    Susma Rio Sep
     
  12. philippgrote

    philippgrote New Member

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    Chauvet

    Hey Todd! Good to hear from you. The book you want to look at is by Jean Clottes and is called 'Return to Chauvet Cave'. There are other images of interest in that book! One sign, described as an insect, looks to me like a ribcage. It has six ribs each side, the sternum is clearly marked with a red blotch/line descending from the lower sternum. In an adjacent panel (which seems to be repeated seven times according to the author) another sign appears (one which I have already described to you) which I identify as a womb sign. Above the sign is a single diagonal red line. The sternum has six complete ribs attached to it on each side and a seventh whose direct attachment to the sternum is disputable. At the bottom of the sternum is a potrusion called the Xiphoid Process. I have wondered if not that potrusion was seen symbolically as the seventh, ie the thirteenth rib (six each side plus one) which is marked on the 'ribcage' sign. Such numerology corellates with the appearance of twelve complete lunar cycles within the solar year plus the incomplete (thirteenth) cycle, which is well recognised as the basis of European mythology. Thus the singular lines above the seven womb signs could represent 'ribs' that are being cast into the womb. This of course gives rise to a possible link with Genesis. Adam means 'Red Earth' and Eve 'Life Giving' and the world was created in seven days (cycles) while Eve the Life Giving was made out of (received?) Adams rib. To me such imagery suggests a symbolism connected with reincarnation rites. Interestingly a bear rib has been found stuck in one of the rock crevices (animal rib bones are a common enigma in prehistoric caves). Bear femurs are stuck in the cave floor, a bear skull seems purposefully set on a fallen rock. Also, scraped bear paws and canines have been found in a cave asociated with archaic Neanderthal called La Sima de los Huesos (National Geographic Vol.189). The Tau to me also resembles the forehead section (as marked on Shiva) including the nose. According to Elsekiel those who had the cross (believed to be the Tau) marked on their foreheads were spared by God.
    Finally, Chauvet seems to be sturctured into three sections: predominantly red images, white images and black images. The red signs are made with red ochre (iron oxide = blood), the white signs are scraped and look bone like in their appearance in colour and structure. The black signs are drawn in charcoal (ashes). Such structure could relate to a goddess cult (virgin, mother, whitch=wise woman). The only clear depictions of vaginas appear in the last (ie black) part (In Hinduism gods of destruction such as Shiva, Kali and Durga are often linked with creative powers). A white sign shows an owl flanked by two ax shaped signs and a single white line next to it (right hand). I believe this sign shows the human pelvis from behind. The sacrum looks very similar to an owl, while the pelvic bones called Llium are shaped like an ax. The owl is drawn looking over its back. The singular white line may represent the rib, now within the womb.
    It is worth studying Chauvet in my view. The site has not yet been excravated fully - this may take a long time to come.
    Can you give me sources on bears + the meaning of the Tau?
    Keeping an open mind.
    Philipp
     
  13. todd greaves

    todd greaves New Member

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    Hi Phillip- Sources on bear cult are Ivar Lissner and my own experience with bears in California and Arizona. As for sources on the Tau, I must immodestly say that I am the main source. You can read one of my papers in the journal MIGRATION and DIFFUSION (June 2003, Vienna), another was accepted for the Epigraphic Society Occasional Papers series but has been much delayed. Another is in final editing and will appear this year in the journal PRE-COLUMBIANA (UC Davis). I can provide you with photocopies if you'll cover the costs. I am currently in Arizona studying distribution of T-shaped kiva doors. I appreciate your anatomical orientation- the sacrum, the temples, the solar plexus and especially the pineal gland have all played a part in sacred traditions. As for red,black and white, they were everybody's sacred colors (Egyptian, Hindu, Mayan, Catholic, etc. The Three Gunas have these colors). I'm going to order the book you mentioned at first opportunity- the Tau may, it seems, be the oldest known true symbol. See ya! Todd
     

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