Symbols

Discussion in 'Ancient History and Mythology' started by Vajradhara, Oct 30, 2003.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, All!

    Since the imagery being discussed has to do with swords, I would like to include my favorite:

    "For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." -Hebrews 4:12, Companion Bible

    *footnote: I italicize to properly quote, but one must understand that italicized words in the KJV (and Companion) are inserted by the original translators to make it flow better in English. Italicized words are not for emphasis, as is commonly taught currently in English grammar.

    My Strong's Concordance lists almost two pages of references to the use of the word "sword", and 24 more that reference "swords". Most are of actual swords. I am not fully certain of the symbology, but it would seem to me an element of power, not unlike the horn in pagan (and Biblical) tradition.

    I do think there is an interesting wordplay between the words "sword" and "word." It gets a lot of attention in certain circles.
     
  2. achnai

    achnai New Member

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    Dear Phi
    It is my pleasure replying to your posts and questions.

    According to the "Hafetz Haim"(in Judaism the Rabbis are often named after the books they write) it is assumed that one does not intentionally do what he knows to be contarary to the Halacha.
    If however a person commits trangression he must repent.
    The punishment can be circumstantial in this world, or after he dies, that is in his afterlife. It does not have to be a mutial repercussion of his own specific transgression.
    The idea of punishment is not as to scare people off, but to reflect the gravity of either sinning to G!D or sinning towards your fellow men, both being the types of sin possible in Judaism.

    Kindest Regards

    Achnai
     
  3. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Phi!
    I realize your question was addressed to another, but if you will humor me...

    "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." -Revelations 13:10 Companion Bible.

    The context places it at the time of the troubles, and it is a warning to those who have chosen to forebear through it, that the forebearance must be done in a passive manner. Active resistance is counterproductive, especially during this time, because these things must come about to be fulfilled. My opinion, anyway.
     
  4. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I've had this stewing in my mind for a few hours, and I can't help but come away with a sense of conflict between symbolic and literal. I accept there are both symbolic and literal meanings throughout the Bible, occasionally even both. Which is why I strive to keep quotes within the context they are written. I have always viewed this specific quote as literal, pertaining to the time prophecied. So I guess what I would need clarified in the question is whether or not a literal death of spirit (and presumably death of body) is implied. Killing with a word, presumably carried out by those specifically instructed to passively resist, seems to me an inappropriate translation of what is intended, not to mention seemingly impossible. Now, I can see a possibility implied of symbolic death of spirit, that is, causing a loss of heart and disillusionment, but even that is not the goal or intent of those spoken of. Rather, this would be that predicted elsewhere of the apostates, that believe themselves to be doing "right," but are in fact, not. Those who claim "have we not cast out devils in thy name?", to which Messiah replies, "get away from me, I never knew you."
    I am prepared to be mistaken, but this is my take on the matter.
     
  5. Phi

    Phi New Member

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  6. Phi

    Phi New Member

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    ...will be killed by the (s)word...

    I suppose that you could say that the apostate spirit will, in the end, be "killed" by the word of truth from the words "I never knew you."
     
  7. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Phi!
    True, but this is not that implied by the specific verse mentioned (Rev. 13:10). I accept your premise, but I feel you are reaching for the verses to support it, by taking out of context, at least in this specific instance. I feel like I am coming across as scolding, and I assure I am not. :) I merely see a misapplied understanding of the specific verse, as the verse is not directed to or about the "Word of Truth," it is directed specifically at the overcomers.
     
  8. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Perhaps the difference in our views is semantic, I view these as figurative or symbolic. There are no less real ramifications, but in a real sense it is not the spirit that is "killed", rather the individual will is suppressed. As a figure of speech, we call that "killing the spirit." Such is the nature of symbology, it serves as a substitute for the purpose of understanding and illustration, and in the grandest examples can become a personal reality, but symbolism is by its nature a surrogate for reality.

    Now, this gets into power and politics. Since those addressed by Rev. 13:10 are fleeing persecution by the hand of politics, there is a definite distinction of application. So while in point of fact you are correct, again it is not the status or position of those being addressed by Rev. 13:10 to be able to "kill with a word", unless they were of a terrorist mind, in which case they are specifically warned not to exercise that inclination.

    Absolutely correct (but not limited to "Jewish" religious leaders, all will partake), and these are in the positions of power, and would hold the authority to administer death "by a word." My money would be on them cooperating with the A/C-government-religion, either knowingly or unknowingly, wittingly or unwittingly.
     
  9. Phi

    Phi New Member

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    Juantoo, it is often the case that words are taken out of context, I do agree with you there. However this one was not first taken out of context by yours truly ;) , but has been taken out of context by so many for so long that there are truly few that bother to check context for this well-known saying. Thus the saying has been for centuries utilized as a stand-alone "word of truth," and although I do not personally see it that way, so many do, that it seemed quite appropriate to respond to it as it is actually used by most people, and not just "as written in context" here.
    I did research the context previously, and again just a short time ago, after a Christian told me that if one of my beloved twin stepsons, who was serving in Iraq at the time, got killed, it was because of that very verse that he "should have known better than to live by the sword." :mad: He felt he had every right to say this to me, and so he did:it is a right for which, among other rights, many soldiers died. It was very hurtful to me worried as I was, and stunned me, so it was not until later that I wished I had told him to "live by the word, so he did not die by it."
     
  10. Phi

    Phi New Member

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    More to 123 :)

    Juantoo3: In re:
    [these are in the positions of power, and would hold the authority to administer death "by a word." My money would be on them cooperating with the A/C-government-religion, either knowingly or unknowingly, wittingly or unwittingly.
    Hmmmm, the A/C-government-religion? ( Is that a battery by Delco? :D )
    Are we a little off topic here?? Is this paranoia regarding current politics??? Orrrrrr.....
    But then I did mention Revelations...If you want to go there with me, maybe it's time for a new thread? :)
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Very well, it's just that I hadn't heard that one taken out of context before. My bad, apologies.

    That person better steer clear of me, I WILL put them straight on this in a big hurry!

    "No greater love hath a man for his friends, than to lay down his life." I defend our military from all sorts of crackpots and cowards all the time. I mostly hold my tongue here as a courtesy, but if someone wanted to go toe to toe, I would defend our military to and with my dying breath. That person had NO right to tell you such a cold, cruel, callous, selfish, ignorant thing.

    Tell your son he has my warmest regards, and most sincere respect, gratitude and admiration.
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Now that I better understand the path you were pursuing with your musings, would you mind very much if we just dismissed this aspect. I have my thoughts, but I really don't like to go there unless specifically asked.
     
  13. Phi

    Phi New Member

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    Thanks diggin'buddy, :) your support for me and my stepson warms my heart.
    He is home now, and getting married on April 3! But unfortunately his twin is now headed for Afghanistan then possibly to Iraq. :( Keep them both in your thoughts for me okay?
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Phi!
    Anytime! I can dig it, if you can dig it!

    OH, out of the frying pan, into the fire? :D Tell him congrats!

    I will.
     
  15. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Staff Member

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    Ditto.

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  16. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Dear Phi

    "live by the word, so he did not die by it."

    Never a truer word said Phi now being realised by new biology www.brucelipton.com

    There is now scientific evidence that when a person changes their thoughts, attitudes and beliefs it can have a very positive effect on their physical, emotional well-being and their prosperity.

    Dear All

    I share the understanding that the tree is the tree of life and represents sentient beings. I have written a piece about this maybe I will start a thread to share it. Water can represent the divine feminine and emotions.

    Love beyond measure

    Sacredstar
     
  17. aged hippy

    aged hippy drifting gently

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    Hello Vajradhara,

    You asked: "it seems that many traditions have a tree in their symbology, usually this tree is a symbol of the life process for the tradition in question.

    what is the purpose, in your opinion, of using a tree rather than another plant or geographical feature, such as a river or mountain?
    "

    It seems to me that the reason to use a tree is that a tree is a simple metaphor for something which brings forth fruit, and the reason that this particular metaphor is used is that it's easy to observe and understand.
    Our flowers (actions, etc.) if fertilised bring forth fruit which contains a seed, which will - on falling to the ground - produce yet another tree which produces flowers, etc., etc.

    This - it seems to me - is similar to the Vine metaphor used to describe the Christ, although in this case the Vine clings to and grows up the Tree of Life.


    You said: "indeed, the world view is cyclic in the eastern traditions and as such, the wheel represents the normal experience of our lives, but also (remember... alot of this is tied to I Ching) the supramundane aspects as well. it seems that the western view of things is such that things are linear rather than cyclic, which could explain why something such as a tree (has a beginning and end) is used rather than a wheel which has neither."

    The tree can also be seen to have a 'circular' rhythm to it, in that it regenerates in Springtime, produces flowers and leaves, then fruit, and then apparently dies, only to be re-born the following Spring. This seems - to me - to be precisely the same metaphor as the Wheel, it goes around and around.

    Maybe this is why ever-green trees were sacred to many European cultures, they never 'died' in Winter, and so they represented constant, on-going Life.


    I don't wish to tread on anyones' toes here, but there are passages in the Christian Bible which appear to support an early belief in reincarnation, when seen in this light the tree - rather than other plants (many of which live for only one year), or a mountain (which is unchanging) makes perfect sense as a metaphor.



    That's how it seems to me - though i have been known to be wrong ....:D
     

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