9/11 - An American Conspiracy?

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mikie8

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i study modern history and 9.11 is a pet project of mine and i will give my 2 penny worth.
former pres. g. bush is a chairman of the Carlyle Group and the bin laden family hold major stocks in it too , Carlyle Group is a major US arms dealing firm.
Oct. 24-26, 2000 - Pentagon officials carry out a "detailed" emergency drill based upon the crashing of a hijacked airliner into the Pentagon.

The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to "back off" investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, Va.jan 2001
May 2001 - Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime
summer 2001 (est.) - Pakistani ISI Chief Gen. Ahmad orders an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta who was, according to the FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI.
July 4-14, 2001 - Osama bin Laden receives treatment for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official, who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15
July 15, 2001 - Members of the G8, meeting in Genoa, Italy, discuss the Taliban, pipelines, and the handing over of Osama bin Laden. According to Pakistani representative Ambassador Naiz Naik, the U.S. delegation, led by former Clinton Ambassador to Pakistan Tom Simmons warned of a "military option" if the Taliban did not change position.
July 2001 - Immediately after the G8 Summit three American officials -- Tom Simmons (former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former assistant secretary of state for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia) -- meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. August/September 2001 - The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900 points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is imminent.
Sept. 1-10 2001 - In an exercise, called Operation "Swift Sword" and planned for four years, 23,000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the 9-11 attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment, the massive operation was implemented as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation "Bright Star." All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the WTC.
Sept. 6-7, 2001 - Put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) totaling 4,744 are purchased on United Air Lines stock, as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the United puts are purchased through Deutschebank/A.B. Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current executive director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard.
Sept. 10, 2001 - Put options totaling 4,516 are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options.
 
Sept. 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by United and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600 percent above normal. This at a time when Reuters (Sept. 10) issues a business report stating, "Airline stocks may be poised to take off.
Sept. 6-10, 2001 - Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25 percent of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the Sept. 11 attacks.
Sept. 9, 2001 - President George W. Bush is presented with detailed war plans to overthrow Al Qaeda, according to U.S. and foreign sources speaking to NBC News.
Sept. 10, 2001 - According to Newsweek, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly cancelled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns
Sept. 11, 2001 - The National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), the federal agency that runs many of the nation's spy satellites, schedules an exercise involving a plane crashing into one of the agency's buildings. "On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001," according to a website advertising a homeland security conference in Chicago run by the National Law Enforcement and Security Institute, CIA official John Fulton and his team "were running a pre-planned simulation to explore the emergency response issues that would be created if a plane were to strike a building. Little did they know that the scenario would come true in a dramatic way."
Sept. 11, 2001 - For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred.
Sept. 13, 2001 - China is admitted to the World Trade Organization quickly, after years of unsuccessful attempts.
 
Oct. 10, 2001 - The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil minister. A previously abandoned Unocal gas pipeline project from Turkmenistan, across Afghanistan, to Pakistan is now back on the table "in view of recent geopolitical developments."
Nov. 21, 2001 - The British paper The Independent runs a story headlined, "Opium Farmers Rejoice at the Defeat of the Taliban." The story reports that massive opium planting is underway all over the country.
Dec. 4, 2001 - Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi is recruited by the U.S. government to help establish control in Afghanistan by unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one of the CIA's leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from prison in order to do this.
Dec. 25, 2001 - Newly appointed Afghani Prime Minister Hamid Karzai is revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal.
mid-April, 2002 - World Bank chief James Wolfensohn, at the opening of the World Bank's offices in Kabul, states he has held talks about financing the Trans-Afghanistan gas pipeline. He confirms $100 million in new grants for the interim Afghani government. Wolfensohn also states that a number of companies have already expressed interest in the project.
July 3, 2002 - The first-ever shipment of Russian oil, 200,000 metric tons, arrives in Houston.
 
sorry to go on soo much and i dont mean to hijax the thread .oh by the way 150,000 chinese troops have amassed on the north korian border (repayment for the US ? )

the war on afgaistan had nothing to do with islam and many muslims condemded the attacks , it had been arranged a long time b4 the attacks.

plz dont associate the 9/11 attacks with muslims or the islamic religion

the tailban was helped set up and funded by pakistan and the US

the only way the US could get a foot hold in asia was to demonise someone (osama ) and not a religion as many muslims live in the US .

im reading the qu'ran atm so i cant comment on all it has to say but as and when i have some questions or answers ill post here

tnx mikie
 
Certainly interesting - and thank goodness there's a lot of information contained in those posts.

I tend to shy away from conspiracies in all but a small few instances - but at least there is information up there that can be further researched and verified - should anyone actually wish to.
 
Strange too that Michael Moore's Stupid White Men had to pulled from the shelves having been dur for release that week. The book contained much damning evidence on both Iraq and Afghanistan. Stranger still was the fact that Progressive Metal giants Dream Theater were due to release their "Live Scenes From New York" album on September the eleventh 2001! The original art featured the twin towers on fire!

lsfny.jpg


MMMmmmm?!?!?​
 
im not a big "conspiracy thoery" believer myself i only watch the news and surf for the latest info on the world stage .

politics and running the world is a messy game to play and to sacrifice few to save many is a tried and tested plan of action .
i was trying to show a simple factual timeline that explains vaugly that world events are not played out in public for all to see , only the results can be seen by many but with some searching and time a fuller story may be reached but only to the few observers who are looking clearly.

also this was in a reply to another thread and was an example of what we the ppl see and know as truth is in fact only a fabricated story to apease our curiosity .

the race for oil is on as most reports say 2020 will be the peak production in opec countries so new sources have to be found and one of the largest outside opec thats not tapped yet is in the tusk/usbekistan region and china is one of the countries thats use of fossil fuels is rising the quickest .wolrd politics is not a weekly past time but a goble scale that takes years of planning before end results are seen . the oil and gas pipline needed to go through afganistan one way or another .pakistan officals paid the wtc 9.11 terrorist and this was confirmed by the fbi but the us did not war with them why ? simply because they had already agreed the pipeline will go through thier land .

The bin laden family have won a multi billion dollor contract to rebuild afganistan .does this make sence when three members of that family was in the list of most wanted people .

as i stated b4 china has amassed troops by north koeria .china will pay there dept to the usa by finishing a war they couldnt .

the us has 40,000 troops in coloubia atm but this is a war for drug money but thats another thread maybe
 
Interesting points in the above posts. It is clear that the public is usually not confronted with the whole of the information. There are many reasons for that, but I believe that, much more than consipiracy theories, the main reasons are that the majority of the news is now too complex for the non-expert to really understand, does not have the sufficient media impact to be attractive, and tha majority of people don't care anyway.

In my studies of international relations, I have become convinced that the majority of "strange" world events can be explained not by conspiracy theories, but by mismanagement and lack of long-term planning.

It is not entirely correct that the US set-up the Taliban regime, but the regime was partly created because of US actions. When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, the US supported the opposition movements without looking too much at who they were. They did the same in Chile by supporting Pinochet, in Zaïre by supporting Mobutu, and in a lot of other places. It was standard practice at the time (oppose anyone who opposes the Soviets).

The only way they had to send weapons to the Afghans was through Pakistan, with the support of the ISI (the secret service). The ISI, of course, took some of the weapons and sold them to whomever wanted them, including terrorists. This strenghtened the links of the ISI with shadowy groups. I have read somewhere that only about 50% of the weapons reached Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, in Afghanistan, the war raged on up to the time when the Soviet Union withdrew. At that time, the US stopped caring. That was again standard policy at the time. The Talibans took power, and ereybody but a few human rights activists blissfully forgot Afghanistan.

Up to the time when people realized that there were vast oil reserves in Khazakstan and Azerbaidjan, and huge natural gas reserves in Turmenistan. How to bring all this oil and gas to the place where they were needed (the West and East Asia)? Well, as far as Asia was concerned, the best way was through a pipeline going east. The problem was that one of the easiest route was through Afghanistan. Therefore, something had to be done about Afghanistan.

I am convinved that, even if 9/11 had not happened, there would have been a military intervention in Afghanistan sooner or later. The Talibans were the perfect villains in the eyes of the public, they were openly supporting terrorists, and no state really cared enough about them to support them. Nobody really needed a terrible terrorist act to be convinved. I think that the reason why the attack on Afghanistan could happen so quickly (and fairly efficiently): because it was already prepared. I certainly do NOT think that the US "caused" 9/11 to have a reason to attack Afghanistan, but rather that plans for the attack were already available for the reasons outlined above.

And just a number of quicker points.

Probably two of the main reasons why no military action will be taken against Pakistan in the foreseeable future is that they still generally support the US/Western interests in the region (even considering the shady role of the ISI and the fact that some regions of the country are not really under control), and most importantly that they have a few nuclear bombs.

The family of Osama Bin Laden is from what I heard a very extended family - as are a lot of the richer Arab families - dealing in the construction business in Saudi Arabia. It is not because Osama is a terrorist that each member of his family is a terrorist. Knowing their background, I think it is quite understandable that they got some contracts for rebuilding Iraq.

Baud
 
im not saying the US planned the attacks even though its in the pakistani treatie to allow the g.c. of cia to choose the head of the isi who payed the wtc terrorists , or that the bin laden family are all bad even though three members were on the worlds most wanted list .
i did keep to facts that can be verified thourh newspaper reports mostly bbc and reuters but also some indian times and others .
some points where paraphased or sumed up , no the tailban is not a US fabrcasion but much of thier funding came from the cia this is a fact . the usa have always funded countries that border the old ussr to help independence but only to take power from russia .the us also wiped millions from the russian economy when they stopped communism .
also th US or in fact the cia had salavdor allende killed after he made president but b4 he was swarn in , this is a fact admitted but the cia b4 international assination became illegal .

heres a list from a new but informative docu/movie

President George Bush said: "We're a peaceful nation."
"This is the calling of the United States of America. The most free nation in the world. A nation built on
fundamental values that reject hate, reject violence, rejects murderers and rejects evil. We will not tire." 1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah Pahlavi as dictator
1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenzof Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed
1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
1963-1975: American military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia.
September 11, 1973: U.S. stages a coup in Chile. Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated.
Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed; 5,000 Chileans killed
1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorians and four American nuns killed
1980s: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billionÊ
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds 'contras' 30,000 Nicaraguans die.
1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.
1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as president of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington.
US invades Panama and removes Noriega 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties
1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from the U.S.
1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush Sr.reinstates dictator of Kuwait.
1991- present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis.
U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombings and sanctions.
1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.
2000-01: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid."
September 11, 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his CIA training to 'allegedly' murder 3,000 people.
~ 'Bowling For Columbine', Michael Moore


the bin laden and the bush family have major shares in US weapons trade companies and like preston bush who sold nazis a total of 35% of all thier explosives even though the first and last offical caushalty of the secound world war were american the president is making large amounts of monies out of WAR . FACT .
the father of the president , ex president bush is under investigation at the moment because it was he who sold us weapons to the afgani people which used them in a war to kill areican soldiers and then makes money selling to the us to kill afgani people . the investigation wont get anywhere and in fact i have just searched and cant find a new link or update so its a closed debate or its not finished yet .
isrealis got there ppl out and american wall street banks and member of the govenrment made millions on the stock market with rouge trades some hundreds larger than ever b4 on september 10 the day b4 while they neglected to tell thier own people.

dont want to get into conspiricy theory stuff as it sounds like flying saucer crap just the facts

todays newspaper
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11574035&method=full&siteid=50143
 
@ vajradhara please explain whats so "woefully inaccurate" about the daily mirror report ?

aslo i will be glad to point anyone to the sources i have used but i did skip over a large subject with many sources so one point at a time please

the idea of killing civillians to blame rivals is not a new one , in history nero is said to have burnt rome and blamed the christians , hitler burt the reich and blamed oppossing partys , putin bombed civillian buildings to gain power .
heres a report from the cuban crissis

http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/northwoods.pdf
made public some time ago
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html


the war on afanistan did nothing but insure fosil fuel pipelines were set in place through arganistan and that opium fields are replanted . Nothing else was accomplshed .There are "terrorist" in camp x-ray but how do we know this to be true if documents like the northwood has been outlining the use of "friendly saboteurs" and there capture for many years .
You just cant believe everything you read .
 
Namaste miki8,

the article itself is unsourced and uncited which makes it very difficult to accept anything that it has to say.

moreover, we have captured important terrorist leaders.

fyi... nero watching as Rome burned is a fiction of history created by his rivals. See Gibbons Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.
 
ancient history is hard to believe either way as documentation is rare and no eye witnesses .it could have been christians who burnt rome who knows ? but it is generally agreed that nero was one who ordered the burning.

heres something on putin :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3973053,00.html

one question at a time and i will source all i can for all to read .

can you please find a source that names or identifies the "captured important terrorist leaders" please

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/warnings020524.html

heres something on FDR :

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p119_Stolley.html

This is nothing new .
 
mikie8 said:
ancient history is hard to believe either way as documentation is rare and no eye witnesses .it could have been christians who burnt rome who knows ? but it is generally agreed that nero was one who ordered the burning.

heres something on putin :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3973053,00.html

one question at a time and i will source all i can for all to read .

can you please find a source that names or identifies the "captured important terrorist leaders" please

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/warnings020524.html

heres something on FDR :

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p119_Stolley.html

This is nothing new .
Click to expand...

Namaste,

here's a bit on Nero:

On the night of July 19, 64 AD, a fire broke out among the shops lining the Circus Maximus, Rome's mammoth chariot stadium. In a city of two million, there was nothing unusual about such a fire -- the sweltering summer heat kindled conflagrations around Rome on a regular basis, particularly in the slums that covered much of the city. Knowing this, Nero himself was miles away in the cooler coastal resort of Antium. Yet this was no ordinary fire. The flames raged for six days before coming under control; then the fire reignited and burned for another three. When the smoke cleared, ten of Rome's fourteen districts were in ruin. The 800-year-old Temple of Jupiter Stator and the Atrium Vestae, the hearth of the Vestal Virgins, were gone. Two thirds of Rome had been destroyed.

History has blamed Nero for the disaster, implying he started the fire so that he could bypass the senate and rebuild Rome to his liking. Much of what is known about the great fire of Rome comes from the aristocrat and historian Tacitus, who claimed that Nero watched Rome burn while merrily playing his fiddle. Gangs of thugs prevented citizens from fighting the fire with threats of torture, Tacitus wrote. There is some support for the theory that Nero leveled the city on purpose: the Domus Aurea, Nero's majestic series of villas and pavilions set upon a landscaped park and a manmade lake, was built in the wake of the fire.

"It would have been seen as very inappropriate on the part of the elite in Rome," says art historian Eric Varner. "They would have been happy if Nero had built the Domus Aurea out in the country, but to do it here in the city really was an extraordinary kind of statement."

Tacitus was a member of this Roman elite, and knowing whether there is a bias in his writing is difficult. Indeed, Tacitus was still a boy at the time of the fire. At the time of Nero's death in 68 AD, Tacitus would hardly have been a teenager. Nero himself blamed the fire on an obscure, new Jewish religious sect called the Christians, who he indiscriminately and mercilessly crucified. During gladiator matches he would feed Christians to lions, and he often lit his garden parties with the burning carcasses of Christian human torches. Yet there is evidence that, in 64 AD, many Roman Christians believed in prophesies predicting that Rome would soon be destroyed by fire. Perhaps the fire was set off by someone hoping to make such a prophecy come true.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_rome/


As for the terrorists, you can review these links:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0614/p03s02-usju.htm

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0728/p01s02-wome.html

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/21/alqaeda.capture/

moreover... here are the killed and captured :

Killed

Mohammed Atef, 57 (Egyptian): Al-Qaeda military commander; killed by U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan in November 2001.
Mohammad Saleh (Egyptian): Military operations; killed in U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan.
Tariq Anwar al-Sayyid Ahmad (Egyptian): Military operations; killed in U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan.
Abu Ali Harthi (Yemeni): Linked to Cole bombing; killed Nov. 4 by CIA missile strike in Yemen.

Captured

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, 37 (Kuwaiti): Said to be key Sept. 11 planner; captured Saturday in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.
Ramzi Bin al-Shibh, 30 (Yemeni): Suspected Sept. 11 plotter; captured in September by Pakistani authorities in Karachi; under U.S. interrogation at an undisclosed location.
Abu Zubaydah, 30 (Palestinian): Operations chief; captured last March in Pakistan; said to be cooperating with interrogators at an undisclosed location.
Omar al-Farouq (Kuwaiti): Southeast Asia operative; captured in June; said to be cooperating with CIA interrogators in Afghanistan.
Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri (Saudi): Persian Gulf operations leader; suspected of masterminding the Cole bombing and linked to embassy bombings; captured in November.
Mohamed Sadeek Odeh (Jordanian): Technical adviser who helped develop bomb used at embassy in Kenya; captured in Karachi, Pakistan, and convicted of conspiracy in U.S. court.
Anas al-Liby, 38 (Libyan): Training camp commander linked to U.S. embassy bombings in Africa; captured in Afghanistan in January 2002.
Abu Zubair Haili (Saudi): recruiter and planner; captured in Morocco in June.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-03-02-alqaeda-list_x.htm
 
Context

Not to be a thorn in the side but I have a point to make about one of Vajradhara's points on the whole terrorist issue.

According to WordReference.com terrorism is:

terrorism [[font=Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode, Lucida Grande][size=-1]'tɛrəˌrızəm[/size][/font]]
[size=-1]noun[/size]

[size=-1]1 [/size][size=-1]systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal
[/size]
[size=-1]2 [/size][size=-1]the act of terrorizing
[/size]
[size=-1]3 [/size][size=-1]the state of being terrorized[/size]

Now in my eyes I feel the US fall into category number one of this. Recently in the middle east with both Iraq and possibly Syria and/or Iran there have been several threats about "regime change if no evidence of weapons of mass destruction are shown". Whether they have them or not is a totally different matter, but the US was willing to use force in Iraq (most recent example anyway) to get it's eventual goal. To me this is terrorism so I think it's the wrong word to use in this instance as terrorist is a rather generic term. Something like "Radical middle eastern extremist" covers it more in my eyes - but at present both are the guilty party as neither side can claim anything to be just or right.

On a side note with the Nero thing, you should collate a number of views on the subject and come to an informed opinion, not looking entirely from one angle. For instance I recently watched a documentary on US involvement in Vietnam where it claimed in 1973 a "mutual and decisive draw was achieved". To my mind this isn't the same images of the Saigon embassy. However, it wasn't a total whitewash for the North Vietnamese either and so you have to look at both biased opinions and come to a decision.

On the original post: I do agree with most of those and that it is hardly co-incidence and isn't really that much of a conspiracy. This is because the US government doesn't need to hide it because people jump to their own conclusions about it anyway regardless of situation. Admittedly there is some covering up, but in general most people are not interested in the subject and only in the light of new things do people take notice. When more light is shed on certain things in 10 or so years time they will probably surface more, as with the US involvement in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Most people don't mind - claiming it to be the right thing to do. People always use justification for different things and occasionally use the juxtaposed position for the same argument now and again. The next question to ask about the US and their lust for oil, wealth and world domination whether overt or covertly is who is going to stop it all?
 
Anzac said:
Not to be a thorn in the side but I have a point to make about one of Vajradhara's points on the whole terrorist issue.

According to WordReference.com terrorism is:

terrorism [[font=Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode, Lucida Grande][size=-1]'tɛrəˌrızəm[/size][/font]]
[size=-1]noun[/size]

[size=-1]1 [/size][size=-1]systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal
[/size]
[size=-1]2 [/size][size=-1]the act of terrorizing
[/size]
[size=-1]3 [/size][size=-1]the state of being terrorized[/size]

Now in my eyes I feel the US fall into category number one of this. Recently in the middle east with both Iraq and possibly Syria and/or Iran there have been several threats about "regime change if no evidence of weapons of mass destruction are shown". Whether they have them or not is a totally different matter, but the US was willing to use force in Iraq (most recent example anyway) to get it's eventual goal. To me this is terrorism so I think it's the wrong word to use in this instance as terrorist is a rather generic term. Something like "Radical middle eastern extremist" covers it more in my eyes - but at present both are the guilty party as neither side can claim anything to be just or right.

On a side note with the Nero thing, you should collate a number of views on the subject and come to an informed opinion, not looking entirely from one angle. For instance I recently watched a documentary on US involvement in Vietnam where it claimed in 1973 a "mutual and decisive draw was achieved". To my mind this isn't the same images of the Saigon embassy. However, it wasn't a total whitewash for the North Vietnamese either and so you have to look at both biased opinions and come to a decision.

On the original post: I do agree with most of those and that it is hardly co-incidence and isn't really that much of a conspiracy. This is because the US government doesn't need to hide it because people jump to their own conclusions about it anyway regardless of situation. Admittedly there is some covering up, but in general most people are not interested in the subject and only in the light of new things do people take notice. When more light is shed on certain things in 10 or so years time they will probably surface more, as with the US involvement in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Most people don't mind - claiming it to be the right thing to do. People always use justification for different things and occasionally use the juxtaposed position for the same argument now and again. The next question to ask about the US and their lust for oil, wealth and world domination whether overt or covertly is who is going to stop it all?
Click to expand...

Namaste Anzac,

indeed, terrorist is a broad brush and it would depend on one's view point about whom one would consider a terrorist, would it not?

however, it seemed that we had narrowed the discussion enough that a general term like terrorist was apt and not a term that would cause confusion.

i have spent many, many years in my study of history and feel that the point of view that i have vis a vie Rome is fairly objective and comprehensive from multiple sources. the fact of the matter is, nobody knows who started the fire. Nero said it was Christians. Nero's enemies said it was him. what we know is that most of Rome was burned to the ground.

as for Vietnam, there was one stated objective, and it was met, defeat of the NVA. of course, once this happened the gurrellia war started and the situation changed. the political will to remain was eroded and the political leaders pulled the military out... well, mostly out.... acutally they just moved to a few new countries to continue their anti communist activities.

as a citizen of America, i am ashamed by many of the actions we've taken in our relatively young history. however, no nation has it's hands clean and many of them have engaged in longer, most devestating wars and conquests than America. history is a wonderful means for us to recognize patterns in the present. we see, demonstrably through the lens of history, that empires rise and fall. it would be a mistake to think that America was any different than the rest.
 
spoken like a true Buddha's disciple

America, i am ashamed by many of the actions we've taken in our relatively young history. however, no nation has it's hands clean and many of them have engaged in longer, most devestating wars and conquests than America. history is a wonderful means for us to recognize patterns in the present. we see, demonstrably through the lens of history, that empires rise and fall. it would be a mistake to think that America was any different than the rest.
Click to expand...

Vaj, spoken like a true disciple of Buddha.

By the way, are you Vaj originally Christian in at least your native cultural ambience, and then converted to Buddhism?

How often and how many hours do you spend a day on meditation? and what do you meditate about or on, and for what purpose?

Up to the present I still can't find the new thread button in this website; so if you can do me a favor, will you start a new thread on Buddhist meditation: the what, the how, the for what?

I like to exchange views with you about Buddhism and meditation and prayer to Buddha and his saints.

Susma Rio Sep
 
In the respect of Rome (which by the sounds of thing you are a much bigger authority on the subject, so I shall not try to impose myself) I was just trying to compare the views on Vietnam to those of Rome. At the time one view will be or have been held, and now, a different one is held. It's the transition period between about which nation is in power and who controls the past and future (as Mr. Orwell put it: who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present, controls the past). I was using it as a modern day representation of an old concept.

I am also incredibly pleased that someone retains a neutral view on the subject as well. For instance there are those that always look to find the faults and cracks and those that tend to build up their views on things. I am not someone to remain neutral and often put my foot in things but I have a great respect where you are neutral regardless of happenstance. If I were wearing a hat, I would bow it to you in this respect.
 
Susma Rio Sep said:
Vaj, spoken like a true disciple of Buddha.

By the way, are you Vaj originally Christian in at least your native cultural ambience, and then converted to Buddhism?

How often and how many hours do you spend a day on meditation? and what do you meditate about or on, and for what purpose?

Up to the present I still can't find the new thread button in this website; so if you can do me a favor, will you start a new thread on Buddhist meditation: the what, the how, the for what?

I like to exchange views with you about Buddhism and meditation and prayer to Buddha and his saints.

Susma Rio Sep
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Namaste Susma,

thank you for the post.

well... i suppose that i was.. though my Christian friends maintain that i wasn't :)

there is a thread in the Eastern Thought section on Meditation which you can find here: http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507

which you are already posting in :)

i usually perfer to keep a topic in one thread rather than hopping between several.
 
Anzac said:
In the respect of Rome (which by the sounds of thing you are a much bigger authority on the subject, so I shall not try to impose myself) I was just trying to compare the views on Vietnam to those of Rome. At the time one view will be or have been held, and now, a different one is held. It's the transition period between about which nation is in power and who controls the past and future (as Mr. Orwell put it: who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present, controls the past). I was using it as a modern day representation of an old concept.

I am also incredibly pleased that someone retains a neutral view on the subject as well. For instance there are those that always look to find the faults and cracks and those that tend to build up their views on things. I am not someone to remain neutral and often put my foot in things but I have a great respect where you are neutral regardless of happenstance. If I were wearing a hat, I would bow it to you in this respect.
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Namaste Anzac,

thank you for the post.

you are correct... the views and opinions on things change over time, sometimes that is a detriment to society for they repeat the same mistake over and over.

by the by... i thought that Rage Against the Machine said that ;)

there was a time, perhaps not so long ago, when i wasn't able to be neutral in things of this nature. i am not the same person as i was then, for which i'm very thankful. when you are a child, you understand as a child.. when you become an adult, you should endeavor to understand as an adult.

hopefully, i understand things in a more adult fashion now.

as is said... "The genunie path of unminding is not for the immature."
 
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