A Second Chance?

[Dondi]

I was running across the passage concerning the the rising of Lazarus in John 11. But an odd thought occurred to me when I read this famous saying of Jesus:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

My attention focused on this portion of scripture: "he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Now I know there are spiritual implications with this passage in relation to being dead to God, but I wonder if the meaning might go deeper than than the obvious. The whole passage is dealing with a physical resurrection of Lazarus. Do you suppose that perhaps the statement "though he were dead" could apply to those who have physically died? In other words, that those in the grave, or rather those who have passed on, that if given the chance to believe in Christ might have a chance to be resurrected on the last day? That salvation could be possible beyond the grave?

 

[lunamoth]

Oh, I absolutely believe this Dondi. Here is part of the catechism in the Anglican Communion:

Q: What do we mean when we say the he sescended to the dead?
A: We mean that he went to the departed and offered them also the benefits of redemption.

Now, if Christ did this for all those who died before his coming, what would stop him for doing the same for those who did not recognize him during their lives?

lunamoth

 

[Dondi]

Oh, I absolutely believe this Dondi. Here is part of the catechism in the Anglican Communion:

Q: What do we mean when we say the he sescended to the dead?
A: We mean that he went to the departed and offered them also the benefits of redemption.

Now, if Christ did this for all those who died before his coming, what would stop him for doing the same for those who did not recognize him during their lives?

lunamoth

So you would subscribe to the idea that the gospel is be preached to those who never heard after they died and thus they would have a "saving' knowledge of Christ to accept or reject Him as Savior? Or could you even extend this to those who have a warped view of Jesus in their lifetime either in some cult or another religion?

 

[mee]

Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. John 5;28-29 even if a person dies ,if they are in Jehovahs memory he will resurrect them , then the ones who praticed vile things before they died,will be judged on how they live their lives after they are resurrected ,not on what they did before they died. but the ones who did good things before they died will be getting a resurrection of life anyway

 

[Dondi]

Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. John 5;28-29 even if a person dies ,if they are in Jehovahs memory he will resurrect them , then the ones who praticed vile things before they died,will be judged on how they live their lives after they are resurrected ,not on what they did before they died. but the ones who did good things before they died will be getting a resurrection of life anyway

This is of course if you subscribe to the idea of "soul sleep", I gather. for if you believe this, then there would be no such thing as preaching to the dead, for there is no consciousness to preach to.

I, for one, believe that the consciouness extends beyond the grave and that we will be aware of where we are at the moment of death. So it is within this context that I posed the OP.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Dondi,

There are passages in the Bible that can be picked out to support the idea of universal salvation, but I know that it is equally easy to pick out verses that seem to say that not all will inherit eternal life. I take the entire Gospel and NT as the demonstration of Christ's love and redemption of all people. I believe God's love and mercy is far greater than the love and mercy conceivable by humans. I think of the prodigal son who squandered his inheritance yet was welcomed back with love by his father. And I remember that death is not a barrier for God.

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. (1 Tim 2)

2 c,
lunamoth

 

[mee]

This is of course if you subscribe to the idea of "soul sleep", I gather. for if you believe this, then there would be no such thing as preaching to the dead, for there is no consciousness to preach to.

I, for one, believe that the consciouness extends beyond the grave and that we will be aware of where we are at the moment of death. So it is within this context that I posed the OP.

as a christian i like to make sure what the bible says about consciousness in death, then i can get accurate understanding about things.
"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture."—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564
In the Bible, "soul" is translated from the Hebrew ne´phesh and the Greek psy·khe´. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. To many persons, however, "soul" means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible teachings.

 

[Dondi]

Hi Dondi,

There are passages in the Bible that can be picked out to support the idea of universal salvation, but I know that it is equally easy to pick out verses that seem to say that not all will inherit eternal life. I take the entire Gospel and NT as the demonstration of Christ's love and redemption of all people. I believe God's love and mercy is far greater than the love and mercy conceivable by humans. I think of the prodigal son who squandered his inheritance yet was welcomed back with love by his father. And I remember that death is not a barrier for God.



2 c,
lunamoth

Oh, I am not advocating universal salvation, that is that everyone will be saved at the end. There will be people that are so hard-hearted that they won't open to God's mercy, loving their sin more than they love God. there will be those who simply won't want to worship God, for we all have free will. To espouse universal salvation is to believe that God would compel everyone to worship him, which would be a forced worship.

No, what I'm talking about is the fact that there are so many that are either ignorant about who God is, or have a misunderstanding about who God is, yet wishes to be saved. And I believe that this is only universal in the sense that seeking after God/Divine/Truth/Whatever is not a purely Christian aspect, as this CR forum clearly dictates. I refer to what Paul explained in Acts 17:26-28:

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

In the end I think the Truth of God will be revealed to everyone so that there will be no doubt of Who He is and therefore everyone will have that opportunity to choose. I think that God would rather have us choose Him here on earth so that we may experience Him in our lifetime as we relate to others.

While here on earth, I believe that the spreading of the Gospel is not so much as to "save" those from an eternal Hell, though that is important for people to know, but to "save" people from a life without God. And we do this mainly by the testamony of what God has done and is doing in our lives.

 

[AletheiaRivers]

I decided to look up the verse on Crosswalk. I read it in the English Standard Version and the Revised Standard Version. Both versions word the translation a bit differently than that which you posted.

The ESV says: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

The RSV says: [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Based on those translations, is Jesus talking about preaching to the dead or is he talking about two different time periods? The current period and a future time period? I don't know, but it's interesting.
[/FONT]

 

[lunamoth]

Oh, I am not advocating universal salvation, that is that everyone will be saved at the end. There will be people that are so hard-hearted that they won't open to God's mercy, loving their sin more than they love God. there will be those who simply won't want to worship God, for we all have free will. To espouse universal salvation is to believe that God would compel everyone to worship him, which would be a forced worship.

No, what I'm talking about is the fact that there are so many that are either ignorant about who God is, or have a misunderstanding about who God is, yet wishes to be saved. And I believe that this is only universal in the sense that seeking after God/Divine/Truth/Whatever is not a purely Christian aspect, as this CR forum clearly dictates. I refer to what Paul explained in Acts 17:26-28:

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

In the end I think the Truth of God will be revealed to everyone so that there will be no doubt of Who He is and therefore everyone will have that opportunity to choose. I think that God would rather have us choose Him here on earth so that we may experience Him in our lifetime as we relate to others.

While here on earth, I believe that the spreading of the Gospel is not so much as to "save" those from an eternal Hell, though that is important for people to know, but to "save" people from a life without God. And we do this mainly by the testamony of what God has done and is doing in our lives.

Hi Dondi, What you describe here does sound like universal salvation, unless you think when "In the end I think the Truth of God will be revealed to everyone so that there will be no doubt of Who He is and therefore everyone will have that opportunity to choose" there will be some who still turn away. Frankly I find it impossible to believe that we could turn away from God when He is revealved to us in His fullness. No matter how hurt and broken we are in this life, there is something in each of that will recognize and respond to this Love. Frankly I believe that all sin is brokenness, and yes it is in this life that we can gain salvation from that brokenness, although we are still not spared all pain.

So, I believe that when the Bible says that we will all be baptized with fire this means that our sin will be burned away so that all will be left is that which is pure and can merge with God's Love. I don't think that this baptism is reserved only for Christians, but is for all.

2 c,
lunamoth

 

[Jeannot]

I was running across the passage concerning the the rising of Lazarus in John 11. But an odd thought occurred to me when I read this famous saying of Jesus:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

My attention focused on this portion of scripture: "he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Now I know there are spiritual implications with this passage in relation to being dead to God, but I wonder if the meaning might go deeper than than the obvious. The whole passage is dealing with a physical resurrection of Lazarus. Do you suppose that perhaps the statement "though he were dead" could apply to those who have physically died? In other words, that those in the grave, or rather those who have passed on, that if given the chance to believe in Christ might have a chance to be resurrected on the last day? That salvation could be possible beyond the grave?

Of course, he also said, "Let the dead bury the dead."

But in support of your position is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory--and maybe even the Hindu docrine of Karma. Of course, Catholics also believe in Hell, but the Jesuits maintain that we don't have to imagine anyone, even Judas, as actually in it.

 

[lunamoth]

Of course, Catholics also believe in Hell, but the Jesuits maintain that we don't have to imagine anyone, even Judas, as actually in it.

Priceless!

 

[Dondi]

Hi Dondi, What you describe here does sound like universal salvation, unless you think when "In the end I think the Truth of God will be revealed to everyone so that there will be no doubt of Who He is and therefore everyone will have that opportunity to choose" there will be some who still turn away. Frankly I find it impossible to believe that we could turn away from God when He is revealved to us in His fullness. No matter how hurt and broken we are in this life, there is something in each of that will recognize and respond to this Love. Frankly I believe that all sin is brokenness, and yes it is in this life that we can gain salvation from that brokenness, although we are still not spared all pain.

So, I believe that when the Bible says that we will all be baptized with fire this means that our sin will be burned away so that all will be left is that which is pure and can merge with God's Love. I don't think that this baptism is reserved only for Christians, but is for all.

2 c,
lunamoth

Thought I made that point clear that some will probably turn away, just as Satan said in Milton's Paradise Lost: "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven."

Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe anyone could forever refuse God either.

Scriptures make it plain though that regardless of accepting or rejecting God:

"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father." - Philippians 2:10-11

I sure don't want to be one of those under the earth.

 

[taijasi]

I recommend reading I Corinthians 15, vs. 31-55, and considering especially verse 50:

But this I tell you, brethren: our mortal bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor will what is perishable inherit what is imperishable.
​

As to the nature of the "spiritual body" (as referenced in passages 44-49), and also the life after death, I believe in Christ's Teaching wherein it is said, in Matthew 7:2:

What ye mete out to others will be meted out unto you.
​

And remember, St. Paul says: "Brethren, be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7)

Indeed, God is just, God is fair, God is impartial ... and if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that our lives will be weighed with such considerations in mind as -

- just how well we managed to "Forgive those who trespass (transgress, sin) against us"

- and also how well we managed to fulfil the 2 simple instructions which Christ gave us - to Love God, and to Love our neighbor (fellow man).
​

To live by these latter principles, is all we need do. So taught Christ.

Love & Light,

taijasi

 

[Dondi]

I recommend reading I Corinthians 15, vs. 31-55, and considering especially verse 50:

But this I tell you, brethren: our mortal bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor will what is perishable inherit what is imperishable.

​

As to the nature of the "spiritual body" (as referenced in passages 44-49), and also the life after death, I believe in Christ's Teaching wherein it is said, in Matthew 7:2:

What ye mete out to others will be meted out unto you.

​

And remember, St. Paul says: "Brethren, be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7)


Indeed, God is just, God is fair, God is impartial ... and if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that our lives will be weighed with such considerations in mind as -

- just how well we managed to "Forgive those who trespass (transgress, sin) against us"

- and also how well we managed to fulfil the 2 simple instructions which Christ gave us - to Love God, and to Love our neighbor (fellow man).

​

To live by these latter principles, is all we need do. So taught Christ.

Love & Light,

taijasi

So you think that the determing factor is by what we do here? That there is no second chance?

I agree what one sows in this life will predicate what we will reap in eternity. And that the two principles you listed will be weighed in the judgement of God. But I would think that if one does these things outside the Christian paradigm in another religion or even as a humanist that if come face to face with Christ after death, they will see Him as He is and realize the Truth and be saved. They will come to believe on Him, just as He says in John 11.

What I find interesting also is that when He said,

"...I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

It dawned on me that He was talking to Martha. And then He said, Believest thou this?" and then Martha said, "Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

Then Jesus went and raised Lazarus. But wait a minute?!!! Whose belief was He reacting to? Martha's or Lazarus'? See verses 39-40:

"Jesus said, Take ye away the stone.
Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

So it is not Lazarus' belief that is raising him, but Martha's. Yet Jesus spoke about one's own belief earlier.

Which raises a whole other question. To what extent does our belief in Christ have on the effect of others?

Taijasi pointed out that principle of forgiving others. When Jesus said in John 20:23,

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

I'm wondering how salvatic such a statement could be.

I know i'm just rambling a bit, but am I on to something here?

 

[taijasi]

So you think that the determing factor is by what we do here? That there is no second chance?

I agree what one sows in this life will predicate what we will reap in eternity.

I should offer the caveat that in my own belief, the law of Cause & Effect is no different (in basics) as pertains to the next world than in this world. I personally do not believe that any worldly and temporal cause could have a permanent, eternal effect. This just does not make sense to me. So our actions, for better or for ill, receive the fitting merit (or consequence), both in this world and in the next.

Some causes may be exhausted in terms of their "effective (or effecting, resulting) energies" even in this world, and because I am in a Beatles mood, I would mention John Lennon's song `Instant Karma' in this regard ... in which he also says, "Better recognize your Brother - everyone you meet!"

As it turns out, there are many actions which may not be singular and isolated events (are there any such things like this? isn't that just an illusion?) - but are intimately connected and bound up in group karma, and in the collective responsibility and burden of all of Humanity. Because of this (and other factors), I think we must sometimes face the consequences of our actions in the next world, just as we meet with pleasant and uplifting experiences there which we may not be fully capable of registering (experiencing) while still in this world.

More lyrics, I'm listening to Richie Havens (Freedom) at the moment:

I got a telephone in my bosom
And I can call him up from my heart
I got a telephone in my bosom
And I can call him up from my heart

When I need my brother…brother
When I need my mother…mother
Hey…yeah…etc.
​

I think these are somehow relevant, if only as an aside, because Richie is singing about a capacity, a receptivity, and an ability to "transmit" that is within us all. This, to me, is (one dimension of) the "Christ within."

But the lyrics which really seem relevant, again, Beatles lyrics, come from my favorite song of all time, Within You, Without You:

We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth-then it's far too late-when they pass away.
​

Now of course, I am a believer in Rebirth, so what I think they're saying here is very much a Buddhist (and Hindu) belief ... which is that we do need our physical bodies, our lives in this world, to fully realize Enlightenment - aka `Salvation,' or Redemption. Yes, there are differences, but I think there are parallels.

But I'm not disagreeing with you Dondi, or with anyone (Christian or otherwise) who believes in our continued capacity to learn, grow, and reach out to Christ even after we pass beyond the veil of death. And I think I fully understand the true context of this question, from a conventional Christian framework.

I may not personally share this POV, but I do think this is an important question ... because as best I can discern, it seems to trouble many people, and honestly, I am saddened by the notion that people would weep for "lost souls," or the suffering of those who presumably reject Christ (even if they might have a "2nd chance") - and fall into darkness.

I cannot comment fully from an "esoteric" POV, but I would like to at least say ... that I have utmost faith that however blessed we may be in this world by the Love and Forgiveness that is proffered by Our Heavenly Father, through Christ - we have only touched the "hem of the garment!"

Love & Light,

taijasi

 

[Dondi]

taijasi,

Actually I'm partial to George Harrison's The Inner Light:

Without going out of my door
I can know all things of earth
Without looking out of my window
I could know the ways of heaven

The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows

Without going out of my door
You can know all things of earth
With out looking out of my window
You could know the ways of heaven

The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows

Arrive without travelling
See all without looking
Do all without doing

With the advent of the Internet, I wonder if ole George knew just how prophetic this song would become.

 

[Dondi]

I may not personally share this POV, but I do think this is an important question ... because as best I can discern, it seems to trouble many people, and honestly, I am saddened by the notion that people would weep for "lost souls," or the suffering of those who presumably reject Christ (even if they might have a "2nd chance") - and fall into darkness.

I cannot comment fully from an "esoteric" POV, but I would like to at least say ... that I have utmost faith that however blessed we may be in this world by the Love and Forgiveness that is proffered by Our Heavenly Father, through Christ - we have only touched the "hem of the garment!"

Well, yes, obviously I have my Jesus spectacles on as I discuss this matter. I do not understand why you do not think it is reasonable to weep for "lost souls" when Jesus and the Apostles wrote extnsively about a terrable place called Hell where the worm dieth not and the fire is quenched not and weping and gnashing of teeth. Whether you believe in the literalism of a real fire and brimestone Hell or a place of torment or a state of eternal separation from God, it doesn't sound like any place I would want anyone be. it's not going to be a fun place to be regardless. So, yes, I weep for those who may find themselves there, and for those who may have been there for quite some time, though I haven't a clue as to the concept of time beyond the grave.

I would that everyone would reach up and touch the hem of His garment. The question is, will they?

 

[Jeannot]

I decided to look up the verse on Crosswalk. I read it in the English Standard Version and the Revised Standard Version. Both versions word the translation a bit differently than that which you posted.

The ESV says: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

The RSV says: [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Based on those translations, is Jesus talking about preaching to the dead or is he talking about two different time periods? The current period and a future time period? I don't know, but it's interesting.
[/FONT]

Hi, Aletheia. Good point. I'm told that the Greek (apothane [transliterated]) is third person aorist subjunctive, which would mean "even though he should have died." But the person I got this from also pointed out that "pisteuon" (the one believing) is present tense. So the sense seems to be "A believer, even tho he has died, will live."

 

[Dondi]

Hi, Aletheia. Good point. I'm told that the Greek (apothane [transliterated]) is third person aorist subjunctive, which would mean "even though he should have died." But the person I got this from also pointed out that "pisteuon" (the one believing) is present tense. So the sense seems to be "A believer, even tho he has died, will live."

So it boils down to Larazus' belief before he died? Or while he is dead?