Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by mikie8, Nov 16, 2003.
As a non thiest i have pondered many times the question of gods/dietys motive for creation ?
My personal perception would be that the question is misplaced - that there always has been God, and that the creation of a universe such as ours is simply a natural inevitable process of order.
To look at the universe in isolation as "being made" is like looking at a plant, and then being amazed when it produces a flower. The flower has not been suddenly "made" - it has always been an inevitability of the plant existing. If you follow that argument further back, the potential for the flower existing does not start with the appearance of the plant, or it first root - nor even the production of the seed that sprouted it. The flower is a the result of inevitable action - karma, if you will - and therefore has always existed to some degree.
Perhaps a better (and more abstract) analogy would be to look at any single part of a the Mandelbrot set: it has not suddenly "come into being", but is a natural mathematical inevitability. And so with the universe.
Of course, that argument takes away the notion of a friendly anthropomorphic god - I'm quite comfortable with that, but not everyone agrees.
@ i brian , i like the idea of the inevitable flower and through the theory of evolution i to subscirbe to the inevitable flowers place in exsistence .
But the question was more direct as multi god religions tend to have gods with motive ,i.e. a god that creates wind ,the god of wind has motive and reason .
Ah, but even then - I see polytheism as continuing the pattern - each "god" as an aspect of "God"...like petals on the flower, or the continuation of the Mandelbrot Set into smaller scales, if you will.
Not everyone will agree, of course.
@ i brian very poetic but not to the point
the god of wind creates the wind its the pupose of the god and the gods motive . simplistic i know but society was too a long time ago .
but a god that created all , knows all , what motive is there in that ? i dont profess to understand as god does but if i knew the outcome to something then i would get bored very quickly .....oh ......maybe thats why god dont speak to us or send angels any more
im only trying to find if any religion gives a purpose to the life god created or if its only a question for athiests as the point for most monothiests is to get in heaven but without heaven there is a desire for purpose .
by the way i have purpose and motive its just a question
Well... Being a christian, I see it this way...
The bible makes the claim that "God is Love" somewhere... (don't remember where)
If that's true, then God, (being Love) must require something or someone to love... So it is manifest, first in creation, and then in redemption, that God did this because he loves us...
I believe it is because He is making man in His image. By us being flesh and made subject to temptation we can err and choose and repent and change our ways. Where as Angels or Malakim are already spirit beings and in a perfect state, if they turn there is no way to redeem them. I believe that it is all the continuing process of letting man choose their own way and exhausted every option so that in the end when the Kingdom of Heaven is set up we won't be able to say, Well what if we tried this. I believe it could have been through evolutinary process, because I 've read things that match that with scripture. But the discoverer of DNA, Francis Crick has said as have others that the time frame doesn't match with how quickly life developed.But the ultimate purpose is for Yahweh to be able to dwell with us on this earth, not float around on a cloud playing harps. But that is a ways off and alot more pain and suffering are coming along with death and destruction because this world is still controlled by Satan as scripture shows through out, and Yahweh has withdrawn Himself from us at this time.
It may sound sentimental but I would hope that the universe came into being as a process and act of love, nothing more.
Good question and good responses!
More grist for the mill -
One view is that if God is God, then everything is possible.
If creation is therefore a possibility, what prevents it becoming a reality?
If creation is a possibility, and God chooses not to realise that possibility, then what constrains Him? The question then, from this perspective, is not why did God create, but why would God act against his nature in not creating?
The counter to this proposition is that it determines creation as a necessity - that God must act according to his nature - and this is something that those who believe that God is essentially free and under no compulsion reject, because it implies that God is obliged to create, even if that obligation stems from his own being.
Hence the Christian doctrine of creatio ex nihilo - that God creates 'out of nothing' - God creates for no other reason than his free choice so to do.
Islam says "I was a hidden treasure, and I wanted to be known"
The two views - freedom and necessity - are compatible in that -
God and creation are one, in the sense that if there were no creation there would be no God as such, for how do we 'define' or even conceive God in terms other than what God does?
(Meister Eckhart said that if I cease to exist, then so does God.)
Thus one might say that whilst God is obliged to create because God is God, God is free to create what God wills, thus I (and by extension the cosmos), exist because God so chooses, not because God is obliged to create me (or the cosmos).
In extension, by realising certain possibilities God necessarily precludes others - grass is green and not pink - but this does not mean those other possibilities will never be realised - rather that God can realise any number of creations both simultaneously and in succession, it is we who have a limited perception of what is possible, not God.
But we all acknowledge that none can fathom the mind of God.
Good point - and one not often made.
Looking at the way Allah (God) created this world, in this artful and with such an accuracy, its easy to ponder are these creation without purpose and without aim?
In Islam we are told that creating is not vanity and not extinction and disappearance, but for a philosophy that God wants, that He said : “I was a hidden treasure and I wanted to be known, so, I created creatures and then they knew me by me”
“we created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, but for just ends” (AL-HIJR – VERSE 85)
And He said: “Not for (idle) sport did we created the heavens and the earth and all that is between” (AL-ANBIYAA – VERSE 16)
Allah Also saod:
“I have only created Jinn’s and men, that they may serve me” (AL-THAARIYAAT – VERSE 56)
So we are created to know Allah (God). When we begin to know Him, we worship Him and serve Him, to obey Him in everything. We serve Allah by serving others and striving to make this a better world. God’s wisdom wanted to create the world and man, and to make the present life as a test place and the afterworld as a punishment, reward and decision place.
Pax, Faryal -
And our thinking gives way to wonder, does it not, and our wonder to delight, and delight to praise?
This saying from Islam is never far from my heart.
Indeed it does.
ps. I love that saying too.
I wanted to add another thing to my earlier post. we might wonder why create human, arent the angels worshiping God? The answer to this is in the Quran:
in the story of Adam's creation in the Quran where he is taught "all the names" (2:31). Allah asks the angels to tell the name but they couldnt and then when Adam (peace be upon him) is asked to tell the names he does so.
so from here we can deduce that God "wanted to be known," and it is human beings alone who can know God in His fullness, as a comprehending all the names, since only they were created in the form of the all-comprehensive name. God's love for the type of knowledge that can be actualized only by human beings brought the world into existence.
just wanted to add this bit.
Assalamo alaikum, faryal
Thank you for posting those portions of the Qur'an and where to find them. I shall try to open a discussion up with one or more of the members of the Muslim Students Association here on campus who might help me understand your scriptures better.
hey anytime you need help with Quran or want to disscuss it you can always mail me, i'll be happy to help you.
May Allah bless us all,
"As a non thiest i have pondered many times the question of gods/dietys motive for creation ?"
Baha'is believe God created the universe so that man or sentient beings can know and worship God... So this is like a love:
"O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life."
"O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty."
Man can seek to love God and return that love and we can love each other:
"This servant appealeth to every diligent and enterprising soul to exert his utmost endeavour and arise to rehabilitate the conditions in all regions and to quicken the dead with the living waters of wisdom and utterance, by virtue of the love he cherisheth for God, the One, the Peerless, the Almighty, the Beneficent."
In another place:
"But for man, who, on My earth, would remember Me, and how could My attributes and My names be revealed?"
When we think of "man" we need to understand that man as a sentient being has not always been in his present form on this earth and that "man" is not restricted to this earth:
"But the life of man is not so restricted; it is divine, eternal, not mortal and sensual. For him a spiritual existence and livelihood is prepared and ordained in the divine creative plan."
"God has created man in order that he may be a dove of the Kingdom, a heavenly candle, a recipient of eternal life. God has created man in order that he may be resuscitated through the breaths of the Holy Spirit and become the light of the world."
The above quotes are all from the Baha'i Writings.
I've pondered this, too and had to laugh at the response of "boredom" as that makes a lot of sense to me and indicates a sense of humor, which I can't imagine God as not having.
However, after thinking more about it, the best I've come up with is the principle of recursion, where at some point "isness" and "non-isness" become one and the same. The fact that we experience "isness," or creation, is simply a matter of where we sit when viewing things.
The closest explanation I can come to in a physical (isness) way is that of black holes, which appear to be non-isness or nothing. I'm sure there's some mathmatical corollary but not being a mathmatician, I've no idea what it might be.
The only other thing that's clear to me is that the primary distinction between isness and non-isness is time. Time is required for isness but doesn't seem to be necessary for God--the whole shebang. Subtract time from the equation and I suspect you might just have God.
Where's some weed when you need it to get to the next level?
thank you for the post and welcome to the forum.
black holes are indeed something... what makes them hard to measure and so forth is that they don't radiate... no light, eh too much gravity. however... in the 70's Stephen Hawking showed that Black holes, do indeed, emit radiation, thus rendering them not entropy sink holes.
as for time.. well.. that's an interesting thing, isn't it. it can be rightly said that time only exists as an adjunct to the universe... i.e. no universe, no time. now... where this gets a bit tricky is when we start to talk about imaginary time. though it sounds like it's make believe, it's not. imaginary time is analgous to imaginary numbers in maths. i will confess to a rudimentary understanding of the issue at this point, however, if you'd like, i can provide some reference material that may be of benefit to people with a better grasp of theoretical physics than i.
perhaps... your black hole analogy could be summed up as, what is known as an "empty set" in math?
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