Kindest Regards, Flowperson!
Thank you for your response!
flowperson said:
But there are new perspectives around us in the nature of the unseen. We know that everything we devise to order the world of nature around us for our benefit and edification, such as building dwellings, growing crops, building roads, are always subject to the degredations imposed upon them by natural systems. Houses are damaged in windstorms, planted fields are reduced in their productivity thru the actions of weeds and insects, and water seeps into cracks in pavement and eventually splits it when the water freezes.
True, but this is order in nature, even if it seems to be disorder to humans. Wind has always had the potential to damage, insects and weeds serve their purpose in the cycle of life, and freezing water has always split and degraded stone.
I guess what I'm saying is that we are creating a world that is more comfortable and convenient, to an extent , for us to exist and live in, and we've been doing so for about 150 years or so.
I would guess far longer, since humans began building cities. Plus or minus, about 5 thousand years. Perhaps longer, if prehistoric humans used any form of "temporary" shelter, such as thatched huts, yurts or teepees, or something similar.
There is always a cost involved in doing such things, and the increased intensity of storm systems might be one of them because of our addiction to fossil fuels, and our reluctance to embrace sustainable alternatives
We impact the environment. It is what we do. So does every creature that builds a nest. Yes, there are those that suggest that our reliance on fossil fuel is
contributing to changes in weather patterns. But weather patterns have changed without fossil fuels on multiple occasions, referenced by tree ring and ice core samples. I hardly think the former ice ages were brought about, or subsided, due to activity specific to humans (or any other creatures) in times past. Global warming is a great challenge to the status quo, the world as we know it now. But at one time huge forests of
tropical plants existed in the arctic, evidenced by geologic finds in coal mines and such. The Earth in times past has been considerably colder, and considerably warmer, at various times in the geologic record.
The fact that many of us are more allergic to our surroundings than our grandparents were may point to some degree in evolutional adaptation in our species away from living and working in natural surroundings to living and working in articifial surroundings 24 hours a day.
Sure, but this is only one of many suspected contributing components. Our western diet is as much a culprit according to several sources I have read.
What I'm getting at here is that we are beginning to engineer the very fabric of the natural world now down to the nano and quantum levels, and nature is such that it will always have its way in the end.
How much is too much? I agree we seem to have taken ourselves to the boundary of playing creator, and I feel there will be natural repercussions if we cross that line. What of applied stem cell research?
I view this all as G-d having created an analog reality for us to exist in, and here we are converting everything to digital simulations to enhance our understandings of the realities around us, and to an extent to cheat and delay the incursions of nature upon our created realities. My concern is the reckoning that nature may inceasingly impose upon us whether we like it or not.
I'm not fully sure I follow, but I think I agree that we can only manipulate nature to a point. I think we may be flirting with the boundary, perhaps we've already crossed it, I don't know.
So again I say that, IMHO, western thought and philosophy strive to impose order upon the natural world around us to support our growth into the future, but the extent to which that ordering is being imposed upon nature is starting to turn around and bite us back in some real ways.
Yes, but it has from time immemorial. The Nile river was manipulated by humans. The Mississippi river was manipulated by humans. The Yellow river is almost finished being manipulated last I heard (3 Gorges Dam). Consider the history of the dust bowl in the US, and how agriculture has spoiled land. Then consider the salting of Carthage by the Romans.
Yet, for the bad side effects, all of these examples serve or will serve humanity. Often, much is lost. But there is also gain.
It is hard to justify not damming a river when your people are dying of thirst, and one has the technology and ability to solve the problem. It is hard not to justify clearing land for cultivation when your people are starving, and one has the technology and ability to solve the problem.
The alternative, as I see it, is for every single human living to return to subsistence living. Grow your own supper, or do without. Dig your own well, or do without. Sadly, there are far too many people in the world, and too many would simply have to do without. BTW, better hope you don't ever need a doctor, there would be none. They would be too busy growing their own food to worry about serving others.
Is this compulsion in us to reorder the natural world around us inborn or have we learned it culturally? I'm still looking for a definitive explanation/answer.
I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but look to the history of the Fertile Crescent, Mesopotamia, Sumer(ia). There is a large cultural component to what you describe in the modern sense. It is also inborn in a more primitive sense, the instinct to build a nest and raise a brood.
As far back as I've peered into the dim past, humans have obtained their sustenance from the natural systems of earth, but now we force it to give us what we want when we want it. In ancient times we gave thanks for what we gained and religions were based upon that practice. Today we pay our money, pick up our industrialized fast food, and not give a thought as to how that whopper ended up going down our throats.
Yes, I've pointed to this very thing in a number of previous threads. A friendly question; do you have the wherewithal to look your supper in the eyes and take its life yourself? Do you have the stomach and knowledge of how to skin it and dress it? Do you know how to prepare it for long term storage without electricity or refrigeration?
By the way, even the traditional views concerning gravity are being reworked as we exchange thoughts. A recent book by Lisa Randall, Warped Passages, gives us a peek at what gravity probably is really all about, way beyond Newtonian thinking, and more along the lines of quantum uncertanties
It would not surprise me, there is a great deal going on in quantum science that is fascinating. Even so, my example was of a typical human standing on a typical place on the earth.
Oh, and the oracle at Delphi sat over a crack in the earth on a three legged stool, inhaled the vapors coming from the crack, and fortold the future based upon the visions she related. Recent findings are that the vapor contains a chemical compound that acts as a mild hallucinogen upon the brain. You're right, mystics often did drugs to obtain their visions, in lots of differing ways.
Cool. I wasn't specifically relating to the use of hallucinogens. The prof that told us of the Psychomantium claimed (according to a book he read, I've forgotten which) the petitioners would fast for a few days in the upper chambers, probably in some form of prayer or worship. When they were ready, the priests (or whatever) would lead them into the lower chamber where a great reflecting pool was in the center of a great hall. Completely in the dark, except for a few candles or small torches (whatever
very low level light source), the petitioner would gaze at the reflecting pool. In modern terms I believe it is called "scrying" (sp?), but this was on a grand scale. It is said that Nostradamus used a similar method on a much smaller scale.