Telos or Dual

[RubySera_Martin]

Which is it?

If I am correct, telos is the Greek word for when all things are projected toward one common goal in the distance such as progress or salvation.

"Dualistic forces of the universe" often refers to opposites such as light and darkness, good and evil, old and young.

 

[flowperson]

Ruby:

I believe that you've got it right. And I say this from my knowledge of genetics. On the end of each chromosome are units of protein called "telomeres" ( from the greek root telos probably ). These bits of protein are lengthy and robust at the beginning of an organism's existence. As the organism endures through time, the telomeres become shorter, until death occurs. Telomeres appear to be involved in some sort of governing system that regulates an organism's timeline of life within the dualistic battles of the universe around it.

I like to think of this as part of an overall plan by G-d to enable life's continuance in a very hostile environment. This is only one of the reasons that I envision G-d as the greatest genetic engineer in all of eternity.

flow....

 

[Dondi]

Does telos have anything teleology? It seems like they have a common root/meaning.

Teleology depends on the concept of a final cause or purpose inherent in all beings. There are two types of such causes, intrinsic finality and extrinsic finality.

• Extrinsic finality consists of a being realizing a purpose outside said being, for the utility and welfare of other beings. For instance, minerals are "designed" to be used by plants which are in turn "designed" to be used by animals.
• Intrinsic finality consists of a being realizing a purpose by means of a natural tendency directed toward the perfection of its own nature. In essence, it is what is "good for" a being. For example, physical masses obey universal gravitational tendencies that did not evolve, but are simply a cosmic "given." Similarly, life is intended to behave in certain ways so as to preserve itself from death, disease, and pain.

 

[neosnoia]

Which is it?

If I am correct, telos is the Greek word for when all things are projected toward one common goal in the distance such as progress or salvation.

"Dualistic forces of the universe" often refers to opposites such as light and darkness, good and evil, old and young.

Was this thread a break-off of another thread? I'm not sure I understand the nature of your question (which was perhaps covered in another thread).

Telos (from which teleology derives) means "end, purpose or goal." Teleology is the study of objects with a view to their purpose.

Dualism factors into teleology in that "dualism" doesn't necessarily refer to TWO things, but to compliments, polarities, or opposites that combine and recombine to form new syntheses.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Was this thread a break-off of another thread? I'm not sure I understand the nature of your question (which was perhaps covered in another thread).

I posted this because I've been reading so much about the dualistic nature of life, or the universe. I just don't see it as a case of dualism. I searched my brain for something that better described my view of things and I thought perhaps telos would be it.

Telos (from which teleology derives) means "end, purpose or goal." Teleology is the study of objects with a view to their purpose.

It looks to me like everything has a focus on becoming. The duals or opposites such as day and night, summer and winter, etc. are just the state of affairs with no moral value attacked. I don't believe in a light and dark kingdom. Everything just is. We exist in the situation and must find a way to live and grow and be all we can be. The same applies to nature.

In spring the buds swell on the trees, the bulbs of flowers push up through the earth, everything returns to life for another season. Spring prepares for the harvest of summer. Summer harvest prepares for the dormancy of winter. Winter refuels the hibernating roots for spring growth.

It can be seen as a cycle yet in time it moves forward. There are changes every season and the clock can never be turned back. The same applies to societies and cultures.

Dualism factors into teleology in that "dualism" doesn't necessarily refer to TWO things, but to compliments, polarities, or opposites that combine and recombine to form new syntheses.

To make discussion easier, I marked this quote in three different way: bolded, underlined, and italicized.

I don't understand the bolded part at all. As you can see, the underlined part speaks of sets of two. Opposites are of necessity a set of two. There can be no compliments or polarities without sets of two.

The italicized part sounds like Hegel's philosophy--dialectics, I think, is the name for it.

I think you're right insofar as dialectics combine telos and dualism. My problem with dualism is the focus on darkness, on being bound to one's opposite, on never being free to just soar to the heights of existence without regard for the opposite. Like Jesus said, when we have laid the hand to the plow we should never look back.

I am not all that familiar with plowing but I am familiar with using a garden tiller to prepare the soil of a very large garden for another season of planting. I have measured off a section I want to till, and marked both ends of the line. I then start at one end of the line and aim to move in a straight line to the other end. There can be much to distract me and influence me to move away from a straight line. The wavering lines of last fall's last tilling are one such distraction. The only sure way to make a straight line is to keep my eyes on the marker at the other end of the line. I think the same applies to plowing.

We must keep our eyes on the goal, on becoming all we can be, on growth, on transformation. Let the rest of the world come when it's ready; my task is to grow and move forward, like in the line where I mark off a section of garden.

Thus, my objective in posting this question was to discuss these different philosophies and see what we can learn.

 

[jiii]

My problem with dualism is the focus on darkness, on being bound to one's opposite, on never being free to just soar to the heights of existence without regard for the opposite.

Well, the idea of dualism binding one to the opposite poles isn't necessarily how it's always expressed. In this case, it sounds like you're referring to being bound to both "light" and it's opposite/complimentary pole "darkness". For instance, take Buddhism. Arguably, Buddhism is about "trascending" dualism, not believing one's self to be stuck in it, or bound to it.

I think that many a Zen Master would've been very delighted at your citation of the Bible..."Like Jesus said, when we have laid the hand to the plow we should never look back."

I suppose that the "telos" aspect has the tendency of getting us stuck in the rat race just as easily as a dualistic viewpoint. When one is always striving toward a distant goal, sometimes he or she forgets to stop and smell the roses...because the thing they are focusing upon as their goal has arrested them. Also, you seem like one that is quite happy with pushing ahead toward the proverbial goal. However, with some people, this approach can leave them devastated if they begin to get the idea that the great thing at the end of the "telos" is completely meaningless...then what?

Just some thoughts.

I did interestingly, think of a Taoist text when I read this discussion:

Hui Tzu said to Chuang Tzu, "I have a big tree named ailanthus. Its trunk is too gnarled and bumpy to apply a measuring line to, its branches too bent and twisty to match up to a compass or square. You could stand it by the road and no carpenter would look at it twice. Your words, too, are big and useless, and so everyone alike spurns them!"

Chuang Tzu said, "Maybe you've never seen a wildcat or a weasel. It crouches down and hides, watching for something to come along. It leaps and races east and west, not hesitating to go high or low-until it falls into the trap and dies in the net. Then again there's the yak, big as a cloud covering the sky. It certainly knows how to be big, though it doesn't know how to catch rats. Now you have this big tree and you're distressed because it's useless. Why don't you plant it in Not-Even-Anything Village, or the field of Broad-and-Boundless, relax and do nothing by its side, or lie down for a free and easy sleep under it? Axes will never shorten its life, nothing can ever harm it. If there's no use for it, how can it come to grief or pain?"

This seems to address the idea of "purpose"/"meaning" and "duality"...though as far as what it means, I'll let the excerpt speak for itself.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

You make some good points here.

Arguably, Buddhism is about "trascending" dualism, not believing one's self to be stuck in it, or bound to it.

Perhaps that is what bothers me--we need to transcend dualism rather than insist that the universe IS dualism. Duality just doesn't seem to be where it's at for me. Smelling the flowers is more like it. Enjoy the here and now, the present moment, with the full awareness that time moves on and we with it.

I think that many a Zen Master would've been very delighted at your citation of the Bible..."Like Jesus said, when we have laid the hand to the plow we should never look back."

I take that as a compliment. I don't know Zen. I didn't think it spoke to my soul, but this verse has been helpful for me.

I suppose that the "telos" aspect has the tendency of getting us stuck in the rat race just as easily as a dualistic viewpoint.

I get your point. I felt an uneasiness that there was something wrong with what I was saying. But I prefer your image of transcending. "Getting stuck" in a rat race is still stuckness, just as bad as being bound to something. I guess I've come "unstuck" and "unbound" and I prefer to keep it that way.

When one is always striving toward a distant goal, sometimes he or she forgets to stop and smell the roses...

Then when they get exhausted and frazzled they can realize that, "Oh yeah, we're supposed to stop and smell the flowers. I forgot to do that this last little while. Gotta go out right now and smell a flower"...or admire the night sky, or whatever is around to enjoy and immerse oneself in. Maybe just the comfort of home and revel in the appreciation to be one of humanity's lucky ones who actually has a home.

because the thing they are focusing upon as their goal has arrested them.

Yeah, like I said, gotta get unstuck. Throw off the shackles of being arrested.

Also, you seem like one that is quite happy with pushing ahead toward the proverbial goal.

Can't just stay in one spot, unless that spot is exactly where I want to spend my life.

However, with some people, this approach can leave them devastated if they begin to get the idea that the great thing at the end of the "telos" is completely meaningless...then what?

Then that person has made a very serious mistake. Gotta do your homework. Gotta figure out what it is you want. Gotta make sure it exists. Gotta figure out if it's worth your energy. Gotta figure out the details of getting there, etc. By all means, don't burn any bridges and don't lock any doors. Be aware of the consequences of your decisions over the long haul. Figure out if, or how, you can live with that.

This is not just empty words I'm blowing here. It is very relevant to my present situation today. I am in the process of making some far-reaching decisions in my life and it's scary stuff. Very serious. I'm going to have to live with my decisions, whether I like them or not. Just now I got an email from a person asking if I could change the time for our meeting to discuss some of the issues so you know I am speaking about a real situation. I have been accused for obsessing about these things but that is not the case.

I simply project myself into the future to see what it's like and then base decisions on how to get there, etc. Normally, the people I ask for advice don't think of all the details so I have to do the digging myself. It then appears like I am obsessing. My "obsessions" normally last only until I get all the info I feel I need or, at times, all that is available.

Then when decision time comes I've done my research and know what I want. Others are scrambling with their work of the moment when it suddenly hits them that they have to make this huge decision. Then they don't have the energy to give it due consideration and, like you suggest, they might arrive at the goal they've worked toward only to find it's not what they wanted at all.

I've had to burn some bridges and lock some doors. I did my homework as I described and have not yet regretted any of these decisions. There are things that cannot be known at decision time. But the decisions must be made anyway. That is where trust and faith comes in. Not necessarily religious faith, but faith all the same.

I like it the way someone put it: Sometimes you have to jump off the cliff not knowing if there's a planet to land on. I would suggest that before doing that a person leave no stone unturned in researching the situation, in seeking out every last possible alternative. If, after this has been done completely and thoroughly, and the conclusion has been reached that the only viable option is to jump, then the leap of faith will probably get you to a better place.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

I forgot one point. If, after you've done all you can do, you still end up where you don't like it, you've got to take stock and see what can be done about things. Just bemoaning the bad situation isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Face up to reality is where it's at, I guess, and take responsibility for your situation.

 

[neosnoia]

It looks to me like everything has a focus on becoming. The duals or opposites such as day and night, summer and winter, etc. are just the state of affairs with no moral value attacked.

What you wrote above is what I think of when I think "dualism." That it is ontological, with no moral value attatched.

I don't understand the bolded part at all. As you can see, the underlined part speaks of sets of two. Opposites are of necessity a set of two. There can be no compliments or polarities without sets of two.

What I mean by 'not two' can by pictured like a coin: two sides, one 'thing.' Is light seperate from dark? Are they two different 'things' that come and go depending on whether the other one is there or not?

The italicized part sounds like Hegel's philosophy--dialectics, I think, is the name for it.

Dialectics is very similar to what I meant.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Thanks, jiii and neosnoia. I keep wanting to call you sunflower because of your avatar. I learned some basics in philosophy from this discussion. And now it occurs to me that it should probably be in the philosophy section. I picked up the topic from a thread in this section and never gave it another thought but posted here. BTW, neosnoia, I see you're new here. Welcome to the board!

 

[neosnoia]

I keep wanting to call you sunflower because of your avatar. ... I see you're new here. Welcome to the board!

Just call me Kay.

Maybe I'll change my avatar ... I forgot there is a "sunflower" here.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Just call me Kay.

Maybe I'll change my avatar ... I forgot there is a "sunflower" here.

Is there someone here by the name of sunflower? If there is, I haven't met the person. For some reason it just seemed like a decent name for a person with an avatar that features sunflowers. I really like.

But I will call you Kay if that is your preference. That's a nice neat little name and I like it.

 

[neosnoia]

Is there someone here by the name of sunflower? If there is, I haven't met the person.

China Cat_Sunflower

For some reason it just seemed like a decent name for a person with an avatar that features sunflowers. I really like.

They are my favorite, along with daisies.

But I will call you Kay if that is your preference.

Can't say as it's a 'preference.' It's my name. Neosnoia is my website.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

China Cat_Sunflower

Uh. Oh. Somehow, the sunflower part of his name never registered in my brain. I know him as Chris and recognize his avatar with the baby with the birthday cake all over her face and hands. So cute. BTW, I know it's okay to discuss this because we did discuss it back when I was new.

Can't say as it's a 'preference.' It's my name. Neosnoia is my website.

I'm curious what it means if you don't mind...

 

[neosnoia]

I'm curious what it means if you don't mind...

It's a somewhat made up word from the Greek root words of "Neos" which means "new" and "Noia" which means "mind."

I wanted something original, but just about everything I searched for had been taken. Since the advent of the internet, there truly doesn't seem to be "anything new under the sun."