Something to think about, and sheep ammo.

Discussion in 'Pagan' started by sedated_angel, Sep 2, 2006.

  1. sedated_angel

    sedated_angel Wiccan

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    Okay, some of you may not understand the reference to sheep ammo. This is a term i use to classify anything that is devoutly believed by judaeochristians, that can be used against them when they start spouting doctrine at you. So, here goes.

    I would like, for a moment, to take you back to the beginning, the dawn of time, the creation of the world. 'God' created the heavens and earth, and all things in it. However, it is interesting at this juncture to note that the word used for 'God' in this particular part is actually: Elohim. A hebrew word which means god, but the word is not singular, plural. Which makes it 'gods', not 'god'. So, to rewrite the previous: "Gods created the heavens and earth, and all things in it." (Continuing) They created mankind, they created them man and woman. (Note at this point that they did not create Adam and Eve, two people, but that they created the whole human race.) Continuing on there was a seperate creation where God created a garden (Eden) and in it placed a man. (Note the singular usage, this is because in the original format the word used for 'God' is Yahweh or more accurately YHVH, the holy tetragrammaton, Yahweh being the english pronunciation of such. This is a singular name, which implies a specific god.) In said garden, and from said man, Yahweh created a woman (eve). They were blissfully stupid in the beginning. God placed also in the garden two trees one: 'the tree which bears the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil' and: 'the tree of eternal life' These two trees were forbidden to adam and eve, god said to the: "Thou shalt not eat of these two trees for on the day that you taste of their fruits, you will surely die." (Yes, this is paraphrasing, but it gets the point across.) Later, the snake (Supposedly lucifer/the devil/satan) came, and asked eve: "Did god truly forbid you to eat any of the fruit in eden?" To which Eve replied: "No, only the two in the center. He said that if we eat the fruit of these trees, we will surely die." Serpent: "No, you will not die, when you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on that day your eyes will be open, and you will be as gods yourselves." Skipping along, adam and eve eat of the fruit, and "When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on that day their eyes were open, they eyes were opened, both of them" (That one is a direct quote from the bible. Though I don't recall the scripture number.) So, here we see that the serpent was right, skipping ahead, the bible continues to say that adam lived to be over 900 having many children. So, clearly he did not die on that day, nor for the following several centuries. Also, just after the eating of the "apple" God says: "Now they have knowledge of good and evil they are like us. They can not eat of the tree of eternal life or they will be as us." So, here we see God getting worried that his experiment is going to supercede him. So, he casts them out of eden and guards it with a flaming sword and cherubs. He also punishes them by making life difficult for them and all their descendants. So, here we see that yahweh is punishing them for something which they had no way of knowing was wrong. Yes, he forbid them of it, but they had no way of knowing that disobedience is wrong. So, here you see, that in the first book of the bible we already see a big trend starting: God Lied/was wrong. The serpent told the truth/was right. And, Yahweh punishes for something which was not the fault of Adam and Eve. And, Yahweh becomes fearful of the rest. Now, consider this: Pagans in general are good gardeners. (Or so I have seen in those around me) We do not have the difficulty of raising crops that was cast upon the descendants of Adam and Eve. Also, we do not have problems with nudity (Once again this is a generalization.) Could this be because we are still in the state of pre-"Apple ingestion"? Therefore not knowing that nudity is improper as deemed by Yahweh. Also important is that no where in the bible does Yahweh state that he is the only god, only that he is the foremost, the only one to be worshipped by his followers. He even goes so far as to sate the is "jealous". Thus implying something of which he would be jealous, i.e. other deities.


    So, there you go, sheep ammo. Let me know what you think.
     
  2. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Forgive me for not getting too far into the mythology, Angel. I'm not crazy about the literalist interpretations of the Genesis story. There is some very deep, very sacred symbolism in it, and I pretty much chalk short-sighted interpretations up to unintentional blasphemy. No big deal, people don't have a whole lot to go on. The prevailing "authorities" have discouraged genuine, individual thought and thoughtfulness ... in favor of blind acceptance and a xenophobic skepticism when it comes to any other presentation of the facts.

    Yes, Elohim is plural. The Jewish tradition came to focus exclusively on one of the Seven Spirits before the Throne ... as referenced later by John the Evangelist in Revelation. Those Seven Lights on the menorah, are known by some to signify the other 6 Elohim. It was Saturn, specifically, Whom the Jews came to acknowledge and worship as their `God.' Had it been a different culture, in a different era, it might as well be Uranos, or Jupiter that Christianity would have "inherited" as its God.

    Jehovah, or YHWH, (like the word Elohim, which includes BOTH genders) is actually a reference to the male-female race of Humanity, the earlier, pre-Edenic race. Humanity then was the Divine hermaphrodite, only slowly differentiating into the separated genders. We were not even physical. Our evolution was astral (on the emotional plane) during the first race, or stage of evolution upon this planet. It became etheric as we descended lower into matter.

    Then in the 3rd, Lemurian race, ~20 million years ago, we began to concretize, or clothe around our etheric body a dense body of flesh and blood. The separation of the sexes became finalized. We left the symbolic `Garden of Eden,' meaning the more spiritual conditions of non-fleshly existence. Our stature, during this time, was up to 20 feet tall or more. It diminished gradually, becoming more like today by Atlantean times, but the Bible does refer to the "race of giants," the Gibborim or nephilim of Jewish mythology. Of course, 9 out of 10 New-Agers will say, "oh you mean the aliens." :p

    taijasi
     
  3. sedated_angel

    sedated_angel Wiccan

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    Well, as I understand the scripture as I have read it, I take the Nephilim/ Gibborim to be not human, nor truly giants, but they are said (in the bible) to be the offspring of humans and 'angels'. Also, another point to be taken would be the fact that while in eden Adam and Eve came to realize that they were nude. Now, correct me if I am wrong here, but wouldn't that imply that they were flesh already. I don't know where you got this info, but I would appreciate it if you would pass the source along. Regardless of true or not (and I'm not saying that it is either) I would definitely be interested in learning more about this unique interpretation of the bible. And, you know I just realized where your interpretation sounds familiar. It's almost like a combination of Judaeochristianity and scientology. Which would definitely make for some interesting reading if nothing else.
     
  4. moseslmpg

    moseslmpg Member

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    Where are you getting this stuff, taijasi? Not that I necessarily disagree, I just wonder where someone acquires such occult knowledge, if knowledge it truly be.

    If I recall correctly though, YHVH is the name of the God of the Israelites, as in the Lord the God, and does not refer to a race at all. And correct my if I am mistaken, but the word Elohim is a plural of majesty not quantity, i.e. it refers to one being which is so transcendent that it is referred to in the hermaphroditic plural, sort of how one uses the plural to refer to persons of high esteem in otehr languages.

    On a side note: what does everyone have against Christians? They're no different than any other humans.
     
  5. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    You'll find that The Secret Doctrine, by H.P. Blavatsky, provides a thorough explanation of the evolution of Humanity. Our spiritual origin is traced back as far as our inception, for some, in prior Solar cycles altogether. For others, the gradual material and spiritual evolution proceeds through the various kingdoms ... until finally entering the human stage during Lemurian times, or during the corresponding cycle on the moon. Clearly, this dates the original globe (of which the moon is the much-decayed, ancient remnant) as preceding Earth by billions of years. Don't worry, science will eventually catch up. ;)

    Twice in our recent history, Humanity might be said to have gotten considerably off course. Once was in Lemurian times, when the separation of the sexes was still a new thing in our evolution. We were largely blameless in this case, because Intellect as we know it, was barely at the stage we see in many domesticated animals. We were essentially animals then, only being considered human technically, and from a spiritual point of view. An individual, reincarnating ego (or `Soul') was finally present.

    So we were without any real way to respond yet to this new spiritual influence (the very real Presence that defines each individual, and draws us closer in each incarnation). The result, was that we "bred with huge, she-animals." And a race of dumb progeny came about - nephilim, perhaps from the spiritual angle. Science knows these as the anthropoid ape!

    Our greater error, was millions of years later, committed well within the LIGHT of awareness and a Conscience that told us otherwise. This was the War between the "Sons of Light and the Sons of darkness" during Atlantis. And that continent sank - after major catastrophes in ~800,000BC, ~200,000BC, ~75,000BC and finally in 9564BC, as recorded by Plato.

    The final two main islands (Ruta & Daitya) gave way in the penultimate catastrophe, and Plato's reference is to Poseidonis - just a REMNANT, of the once-great empire ... which had airships, and technologies that rival those of today. The people, again, were not as intelligent as current Humanity, overall; but they were happier, psychic vision and other abilities were commonplace. Divine beings openly walked among us, and taught us.

    It was only gradually that Humanity began to misapply the Wisdom that was being shared, and misdirect the energies which were available to every citizen. Our interaction with the Devas, including nature spirits & elementals, ceased to be a symbiotic or harmonius relationship ... and we abused and exploited them for our own selfish benefit. We see the same thing happening today, where governments & big business are destroying the planet, and Humanity along with it. Humanity remains apathetic - selfishness, pleasure and greed prevailing over right thinking, compassion and a spirit of solidarity, not to mention, Sacrifice. :(

    Thank goodness many of the secrets of Cosmic energies are still safeguarded ... or we would already have perished long ago. Many believe it is now just a matter of time, and it would be very unfortunate, indeed, if we had to wait for another planet to be developed. These things are hard to come by, and my understanding is that Slaartibartfast & His crew have already had to design it twice. ;)

    So, Douglas Adams, actually, tells us these things, in his own way. Truth is stranger than fiction. And science-fiction, as we begin to see (think Star Trek, and how much from that show has come to pass), in often a good indicator of the future. In this case, Adams gives us insight into the past, as well!

    Edgar Cayce, if you do some research, taught the previous evolution of Humanity - descending from the Spiritual worlds, to the terrestrial - or Earthly. He may use a different language than Blavatsky and the Theosophists, but his teaching is the same. The Popol Vuh, as well, has insight for us. The Flood Myth will be found recorded there, and is preserved in the Greek tale of Deucalion - who WAS the Biblical Noah. So, too, Vaivasvata Manu of Vedic teachings, will be seen to have saved Humanity under Divine instruction, guidance and imperative. For THAT is the function of the Manu, just as the Bodhisattva (or `Christ') is the World Teacher!

    So much easier to worship these beings though. It gets us out of actually being responsible for ourselves and our actions. Indeed, absolution may be one of the closest things Humanity has ever known ... to absolute evil. :(

    As for Adam & Eve being "nude," no, this does not imply flesh & blood. The dense body is modelled on the etheric. The etheric is the prototype, around which the denser molecules of solid, liquid & gas are gathered. It literally holds them together, integrating and synthesizing them into a whole (build of organs, organ systems, and the various substances which vivify and sustain the overall organism).

    Subtract from a human the etheric body, and other than being invisible to ordinary sight - s/he still remains in the same space, right in front of you. People who can perceive this subtler vibration of matter ... will tell you that the energy centers, or chakras - wheels, or vortices of various energies - exist within the etheric body. Other structures, which correspond to the major organs of the dense body, are also present ... as well as additional organs not currently in use. But one is still gendered, since at the level of the emotions, and even in terms of lower mind ... there is a distinction, a polarity of energies.

    Again, I would suggest that we must be careful with a literal interpretation of allegories like the Genesis myth. "Naked," you see, refers to the state, or condition of non-physical, or non-dense existence, which I have just described. Clothing oneself is allegorical here ... literal, only inasmuch as the "spirit" (etheric body) had to "clothe" itself with flesh & blood in order to become solid. And this occurred all throughout the 3rd, or Lemurian Root Race. One might say the "defining moment" both for the Lemurians, and also for Humanity at large, occurred about 18 million years ago, when this whole process came to a crux. The "sin of the mindless," producing the nephilim ... came later.

    The Secret Doctrine is a long and difficult read. The sections you might interesting are in Vol. II, Anthropogenesis. But I still recommend the abridgement. This may make research easier. As for scientology, I've never cared for it. Took a look briefly some years ago, but imho, Ron Hubbard is a quack. Still, whatever floats your boat, eh? :p

    Regards,

    andrew (taijasi)
     
  6. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    My post just now answers this. Every religion teaches it. But one must look deeper than what is status quo, in order to find this. What I grew up hearing in Sunday School ... well, it just doesn't tell us much, about the specifics. In terms of ethics, I'd say it's pretty good stuff. :)

    God of the Israelites, yes. Chosen among the 7 Elohim. Not the "Most High God" - neither of the Seven, let alone, the THRONE before which these Spirits appear, in Revelation. Mind you, to prove this to yourself ... might take YEARS of reading, and research. And personal inquiry, meditation/prayer, contemplation, etc. Are you up for it? ;)

    Let me give a quick reference to get you started:
    Elohim 'elohim (Hebrew) [from 'eloah goddess + im masculine plural ending] The monotheistic proclivities, not only of the Jews but of Christian translators, have led to this word always being translated as God; yet the word itself is a plural form, nor is it in any sense necessarily a plural of majesty, as suggested by some monotheistic scholars. A correct rendering should denote both masculine and feminine characteristics, such as androgyne divinities.

    In spite of the ideas imbodied in the word itself, the later development of Judaism caused 'elohim to be almost entirely translated in paraphrase as the "one true God"; but in earlier times 'elohim (or rather benei 'elohim or benei 'elim -- sons of gods, members of the classes of divine beings) meant spiritual beings or cosmic spirits of differing hierarchical grades: a collective class of cosmic spirits among whom is found the familiar Jewish Yahweh or Jehovah. Thus, strictly speaking and as viewed in the original Qabbalah, the 'elohim meant the angelic hierarchies of many varying grades of spirituality or ethereality; and in cosmogonic or astrological matters, the 'elohim were often mentally aggregated under the generalized term tseba'oth [fem pl from the verbal root tsaba' a host, an army] as in the expression "host of heaven."

    In the Jewish Qabbalah the 'elohim, however, are the sixth hierarchical group in derivation from the first or Crown, Kether: cosmogonically they represent the manifested formers or weavers of the cosmos. In this Qabbalistic system, Jehovah was the third angelic potency (counting from the first, Kether). Blavatsky calls all these hierarchicies symbols "emblematic, mutually and correlatively, of Spirit, Soul and Body (man); of the circle transformed into Spirit, the Soul of the World, and its body (or Earth). Stepping out of the Circle of Infinity, that no man comprehendeth, Ain-Soph (the Kabalistic synonym for Parabrahm, for the Zeroana Akerne, of the Mazdeans, or for any other 'Uunknowable') becomes 'One' -- the Echos, the Eka, the Ahu -- then he (or it) is transformed by evolution into the One in many, the Dhyani-Buddhas or the Elohim, or again the Amshaspends, his third Step being taken into generation of the flesh, or 'Man.' And from man, or Jah-Hova, 'male female,' the inner divine entity becomes, on the metaphysical planes, once more the Elohim" (SD 1:113).

    The opening words of the Bible refer directly to the activities of the 'elohim, for this is the sole divine name mentioned in Genesis 1:1-2. De Purucker translates these verses from the original Hebrew as: "In a host (or multitude), the gods (Elohim) formed themselves into the heavens and the earth. And the earth became ethereal. And darkness upon the face of the ethers. And the ruah (the spirit-soul) of the gods (of Elohim) fluttered or hovered, brooding" (cf Fund 99-100). He goes on to say that "we see that the Elohim evolved man, humanity, out of themselves, and told them to become, then to enter into and inform these other creatures. Indeed, these sons of the Elohim are, in our teachings, the children of light, the sons of light, which are we ourselves, and yet different from ourselves, because higher, yet they are our own very selves inwardly. In fact, the Elohim, became, evolved into, their own offspring, remaining in a sense still always the inspiring light within, or rather above . . . the Elohim projected themselves into the nascent forms of the then 'humanity,' which thenceforward were 'men,' however imperfect their development still was" (Fund 101-2).

    The 'elohim, then, correspond to both classes of the pitris mentioned in theosophical literature: the higher or more spiritual-intellectual of the 'elohim are the agnishvatta-pitris, and the lower groups are the barhishad-pitris. As the agnishvatta-pitris are devoid of the astral-vital-physical productive fire because they are too high and distinctly intellectual, they leave the work of production to the lower 'elohim or barhishads, who "being the lunar spirits more closely connected with Earth, became the creative Elohim of form, or the Adam of dust" (SD 2:78).
    SD refers to Secret Doctrine. So you see, this is not a plural of majesty.

    We're all humans. What's the point? Christians are followers of a certain tradition, with much latitude, as well as depth, among the followers of the varying sects, denominations, branches, churches, ideologies, schools of thought, and so forth. Careful with generalizations. Even at CR, there are several different forums, since we can acknowledge that there are more conventional views, as well as more liberal or progressive ones.

    Namaskar,

    taijasi
     
  7. moseslmpg

    moseslmpg Member

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    I suppose this Theosophy does make things a little more interesting, to say the least. I'm already on my way, I'd say, for the years of reading and contemplation, in fact I do little else nowadays. I simply put questions bluntly like this to make sure my personal beliefs don't interfere with conversation. I just don't know who to trust anymore, if you know what I mean. I have seen conflicting information to what is presented here (with respect to the Elohim and YHVH) presented in sources I deem valid. I suppose the truth of the matter is not the issue though, since everything is as it is and beliefs merely color reality.

    Would The Secret Doctrine be a good place to start into Theosophy, or is it one of those things you just dive into and pray that you don't drown? I'd like to get into it, but I may have to wait until I'm a little older and a lot wiser.

    The point is that many people seems to express disdain for Christians, rather than Christianity, simply based on the fact of their beliefs. Can't we all just get along guys?

    P.P. Sorry for hijacking your thread here, sedated angel. My thirst for knowledge is simply unquenchable.
     
  8. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    I don't recommend starting here, unless you check out the abridgement of the SD from the local library. See if you can wade through it - but don't drown! :p

    There are presentations of the Ancient Wisdom that are much easier to grasp. This is the Pagan forum, so I'm not much on recommending literature with a Christian slant ... but if this is your background and perspective, try some of Edgar Cayce's writings. He was a fundamentalist, prior to the readings he began giving, yet he remained a Christian till his dying day!:)

    Ironically, I find that no one, either before or since H.P. Blavatksy, has provided the same information, in quite the same way. Alice Bailey builds upon her foundation, and additional teachings exist even since Alice's day that may be easier to grasp. Visit www.wisdomimpressions.com, and check out some of the articles available online. Most of this will appeal to you, if at all, in a very practical way - and not strictly as some kind of abstract spiritual philosophy. I especially recommend the book Creative Thinking for starters, and/or Nature of the Soul (which is a free download).

    Acta virum probant ("Actions prove the man.") Here is the teaching of the Buddhas, the Wisdom of the Ages, in three simple words, albeit Latin. ;)

    oops! ditto

    taijasi
     
  9. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

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  10. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Thanks, Ben! I know these sites, and they're all good places to start! :)

    It's also good to poke around on yahoo. Often I stumble across a good site created by an individual. Wikipedia, too, is an increasingly reliable and remarkably unbiased reference site - or starting point.

    The quotes I provided, though from the Secret Doctrine, come from an online, encyclopedic Theosophical glossary. Culled from many sources, the definitions provided will appeal to folks of many backgrounds, including Pagan/Wiccan and New Age ... not just Theosophical or esoteric. It's found here.

    Namaskar,

    andrew
     
  11. Chela

    Chela Psychological Janitor

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    It is good to note that any passage of the Bible has many meanings. A common number is seven meanings related with the cosmo-septenary.

    For example, being "naked" also means being innocient of Good and Evil, in other words, an Elemental state of development where the mind (manas) is totally free of "satan;" the psychological "legion" of aggregates that leads man into sin; the psychological desease or inner leprosy of the mind that only the inner "Jesus" can heal!

    The Seven Days of Genesis are related with any creation, not only the creation of a World or a Humanity, but also each individual Human, through the ascent of the Seven Serpents of Buddha (or the seven candle sticks, the Menorah, of Revelation).
     
  12. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    ... right. In this case, I would tend to argue that the only thing "naked" or nude doesn't actually refer to - is the one thing that generally come to mind when we see or hear the word! :p

    cheers,

    andrew
     
  13. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    ’Elo·him′ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. not as more than one God
     

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