jesus

shadowman

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ok heres what i think about jesus ... not all words are my own, but i like this: (many times BOLDED words are additions and insights on scripture)

he had a beautiful world view, he was a healer and a visionairy

i dont trust chrches or the bible even since it was compiled later, is very psychologically powerful, and has canonical texts (scriptures about jesus) that were not included in it

but i think his message was love god with all your heaert, and love your neighbor as yourself

and thats how i try to follow him.

when he said i am the way, i think that meant his way is the way

but i dont think it meant people had to deify him

i dont think god sends people to hell

it only happens if he hates them

mathew 22:36-40. 7:12. John 13:35. 15:9. Rom 11:26

that Love let's us know that all any sctipts on hell are saying is that that wd only happen if God hated anyone.

See john 6:44-45:
No one can come to understand about Love and God unless God draws him and opens his mind to that understanding.
Therefore, NO one can nor will be held responsible for not knowing whatever.

i think jesus is saying to walk his path, not to go gung ho with deifying him

John has more to say. In prayer Jesus says, “YOU, the only true GOD.” (John 17:3). In John 20:17 Jesus said to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” (RS, Catholic edition)

John 8:17, 18 “In your own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about MYSELF, and the FATHER (GOD) WHO SENT ME bears witness about ME.”

The above verses from John show Jesus (17:3) addresses God in the second person pronoun YOU. And adds that YOU are the ONE TRUE GOD. He did not say I am the one true God. In John 20:17 he quotes Jesus saying that he AND MARY have the same FATHER and the same GOD. Jesus is not saying that he IS the FATHER as Evangelicals claim. Jesus is telling us that he is subordinate to the Father-God just as Mary.

i have always had a problem with "you worship jesus and "Accept him into your heart as your savior" or else you go to hell."

"Heart" is metaphorical for emotional intuitive belief. However i just stated it, the emotion evoked is fear not love. Accept me or I will burn you forever in Hell. That makes God a god of fear and dread not a loving god.

I do not think the Holy Spirit is a third god or third personality in the same God. I do not believe that I have a Holy Spirit in me. No disrespect, I just think the Holy Spirit is a borrowed concept from the Zoroastrian Spenta Mainyu. JHWY/Allah is a single ONE God


If the Holy Spirit is only in Christians, why do they have such a horrible track record? Why does Europe have such a terrible history of bloody religious wars between men who all claim to have the Holy Spirit killing each other over trivial scriptural differences? Why do Evangelicals have double the divorce rate in America than Atheists/Agnostics? Why do US Prisons have only 0.2% unbelievers but Atheists/Agnostics are 5% of the population. That statistic is more impressive if one is not counting the perhaps millions of "closet Atheists" who must hide their unbelief to keep their jobs, businesses, and medical practices.)

We are not just rational, analytical, and sceptical animals. We are also emotional animals capable of love and hate, confidence and fear. We have complex circuits for these different neurobehaviours and have identified them with functional brain imaging. One functions best if his/her cognitive (rational, analytical, and sceptical) brain is in healthy balance with his/her Affective Limbic Lobe (love, fear, hate, altruism, anger, vengeance, forgiveness, and self-sacrifice.)

Those firefighters who ran into the burning, crashing twin towers buildings because of rational analytical evaluation of the situation. They risked and gave their lives because of the Limbic Lobe's love, altruism, and self-sacrifice. Those don't make sense in the rational mode but we would not survive without that "heart."

Having studied the Bible in school and on my own I arrive at different conclusions. Jesus (real or fictionsl) is calling through the two millennia for me to care for the poor, aid the sick, be just to all people, to love my neighbour, and in a catastrophe like 9-11 or 7-7 or the Hutu-Tutsi Wars in Rwanda to risk life and health to save as many people as possible. I may be wrong but I think or hope that God is there is one, is more pleased by my work in Africa means more than whether I believe Jesus is a God, a prophet, a Messiah, or just a good man.

I have often praised Jesus the man for what he said and did, whether he was real or a fictional man. The man was an ideal of what we should and can be. In my reading of the Gospels, unlike most Fundamentalists, but like many European Christians, the words that lit up were the Jesus' words, deeds, and self-sacrifice. Americans ignore that and focus on bending those words to justify apotheosis (deifying him.) They lost the message while deifying the messenger.

I may be a "Cultural Christian" or "Secular Christian" in the sense that I regard Jesus as a role model. I regard him as a wise philosopher. I admire his dedication, his altruism, his compassion for the poor, and his attempt to heal diseases and ease suffering. Like I said, it is not important to me if he existed or is fictional. The story is inspiring in ways that most American Christians fail to notice.

in John's mystical gnostic gospel ... what matters is if you have Jesus in you and you are in Jesus ... and that is left undefined ... except for ... did you visit the sick, the poor, the imprisoned. In no quote of Jesus does Jesus say ... did you worship me as part of a Trinity, did you worship me alone, did you support the Republican Party etc. If you want to define Christian by what one does and not what one believes ... there are a lot fewer Christians, and it is a lot less clear who the real ones are ;-) That would be a Jewish kind of definition ... orthopraxis vs the usual definition thru orthodoxy. Good luck on your self examination. Even the most orthodox have need of repentence (Catholics do confession, do Episcopalians?) when compared with the Epistle of James.

you are invited to have a relatioship with the Son ... you in the Son and the Son in you. Son and Father are just alternate names for G-d. If there is only one G-d, and the Son and Father are synonymous ... then by logical necessity, you can only get to the Father thru the Son and vice versa. Similarly if G-d is Spirit and Holy (more synonyms) then if you have G-d in you then you have the Holy Spirit in you also.

By having a relationship, you take part of that person into you and they take part of you into themselves. This is what happens with all who have a relationship


Love is the way: see matthew 22:36-40. John 13:35. 15:9.

Jc is using himself as metaphor for the way of love since he loves himslef as all words, love stands for him and he stabpnds for love. Thus since love is the way, jc is the way. See matthew 24:3-5: many would deceive others by preaching hate even when they came in the name of jc!

So love is the way, not jc!

More proof: 1 cor 13:1-3: without love, jc's death means nothing!

So it is when we accept Love for all that we auto have jc and moses everyone in our herats!
See?

Love is the way JC says is the way: see matthew 22:36-40.

That way of Love means that JC was following that way.
And so just as when I love all words,
all words including the word 'me' mean Love.
So JC says I am the way meaning that he is only calling himself as the way because he loves himself as the Way of Love says he is to lvoe himself.

So any nonxtian who is full of Love wd auto also love JC too!

But any xtian full of JC wd not necessarily love nonxtians!

Love is proof of itself that we love jc.
Calling my self a follower of JC does NOT mean I am anything more than a follower in name only...if i hate others!
But loving all, I am as a buddhist an automatic true follower of JC TOO!

see 1 john 4:20: If i hate you and say I am a xtian, God says I am a liar when i say I am a xtian!

So Love is the suporeme Law that even God obeys! matt 7:12
so Love is God's God!


that Love also angelises everything else since we are to love God and Satan, demons and angels!
see?
Angels are just demons in love just as demons are only angels in hate!


here some additions to scripture are BOLDED:

In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’
And they said,
‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ WHICH MEANS TO BELIEVE WHAT HE SAID TO BELIEVE IN: LOVE!,
and thou shalt be saved . . . .’

it is appointed unto men WHO ARE IN LOVE once to die A PHYSICAL DEATH, but after this the judgment IN LOVE WHICH LOVE SAVES ALL” (Hebrews 9:27)
SEE ROMANS 11:26.

THOSE IN HATE DIE TWICE: WHEN WE BEGIN HATING IS OUR FIRST DEATH OF OUR LOVE AND OF US;SEE LUKE 9:60: THE SPIRITUALLY DEAD;
AND THEN WHEN WE DIE PHYSICALLY, THAT IS OUR 2ND DEATH!
SEE?

For the PHYSICAL life of the flesh is in the blood JUST AS THE SPIRITUAL LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE LOVE OR IN THE BLOOD OF LOVE!!!!” (Lev. 17:11).

“ . . . without shedding of THE blood OF LOVE is no remission [pardon] OF THE SIN OF HATE FOR SELF AND ANY ONE ELSE!!!!!!!” (Hebrews 9:22).
JC DID NOT SHED HIS RED PHYSICAL BLOOD TO SAVE US FROM SIN BUT HE SHED HIS SPIRITUALLY RED LOVE OR BLOOD OF LOVE TO SAVE US! HIS PHYSICAL BLLOD HAD nothing TO DO WITH IT!
SEE 1 CORIN 13:3

“ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us AS SINNERS AND AS SAINTS TO SHOW US HOW TO LOVE OURSELVES IS AS ALL PAIRS OF OPPOSITES AND SO IN LOVE TO LIVE AND SO IN LOVE TO DIE !!!!” (Romans 5:8).



“But as many as received Him, THAT IS, AS REC'D THE LOVE HE SHOWED THEM TO HAVE, to them gave He power OF LOVE to become the sons of God, even to them that believe IN LOVE, WHICH IS TO BELIEVE on His name WHICH IS LVOE” (John 1:12).

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of LOVE, WHICH IS WHAT the Lord IS, shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).

im getting this from a website jesus is savior.

they think that we need to

* Pray -- you talk to God.
NO: WE TALK TO GOD IN ORDER T0 PRAY;
AND WE LOVE IN ORDER TO TALK TO GOD WHO IS lOVE AND IN LOVE OR ON LOVE OR ON LOVE-LINE OR ON THE LINE OF LOVE OR ON LINE!

* Read your Bible -- God talks to you.
NO: WE TALK TO GOD TO READ BIBLE.
AND WE LOVE IN ORDER TO TALK TO GOD IN LOVE.

* Witness -- you talk for God.
NO: WE TALK FOR GOD IN ORDER TO WITNESS.
AND WE LOVE IN ORDER TO LOVE FOR LOVE AND FOR GOD WHO IS LOVE.

THEY HAVE IT BACKWARDS!

THEY ALSO SAY:
WE FAST TO GET CLOSE TO GOD.
NO: WE GET CLOSE TO GOD IN ORDER TO FAST.
AND WE LOVE IN ORDER TO GET CLOSE TO GOD SO WE CAN EAT IN LOVRE AND FAST IN LVOE!...AND SO BE CLOSE TO GOD WHETHER WE ARE FASTING OR FEASTING!
SEE?
IT IS JUST THE OPPOSITE WHEN YOU START OFF WITHERE GOD SAYS TO START: WITH LOVE FOR YOUSELF AS ALL WORDS!



and no, when we pray it should be something like this

Oh God, I know I am a sinner YOU LOVE..SO SHOW ME HOW TO LVOE ME AS A SINNER AND AS A SAINT.
I believe Jesus was my substitute OR EXAMPLE TO SHOW ME THAT IT IS IN LOVE THAT IS HOW I DIE when He died IN LOVE on the Cross.
I believe His shed blood OF LOVE, death OF HIS HATE, burial OF HIS HATE, and resurrection IN LOVE were for me TO SHOW ME HOW TO DO IT AS HE DID IT.

I now receive Him as my Savior BY RECEIVING LOVE FOR ALL WORDS AS MY SAVIOR FROM MY SELF-HATE AS ANY WORDS. I thank You for THE LOVE ON WHICH the forgiveness of my sins OF HATE FOR MYSELF ASN OTHERS IS BASED AND COMMIT TO LVOE MYSLEF AS ALL WORDS WHICH IS HOW YOU LVOE ME SINCE TO HATE MYSELF AS ANY WORD IS THE FIRST AND ONLY SIN,
FOR the gift of salvation WHICH IS THE GIFT OF YOUR FREE LOVE FOR ME TO ME,
and FOR everlasting life WHICH IS SIMPLY ANY LIFE IN EVERLASTING LOVE, because of THE merciful grace OF YOUR LOVE. Amen.”


the website SHOULD remind us

Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s UNCONDITIONAL CHANGLESS LOVE FOR ALL FEELINGS. ThAT LOVE never STOPS LOVING. After you are saved, there ONE thing to practice daily for spiritual growth:
LOVE YOURSELF AS ALL WORDS SO THAT NO MATTER WHAT ELSE YOU DO OR DON'T DO YOU WILL BE DOING IT IN LOVE OR IN LOVE DOING IT NOT:

* Pray IN LOVE-- you talk IN LOVE to God-- AND IN LVOE PRAY NOT.
* Read your Bible IN LOVE-- God IN LOVE talks to you...OR IN LOVE READ NOT..AND GOD IS STILL ON LINE TO YOU ON LOVE.
* Witness IN LOVE-- you talk for God WHEN YOU TALK FOR LOVE; OR IN LOVE WITNESS NOT: EVEN WHEN NOT WITNESSING, YOUR LOVWE IS STILL WITNESSING FOR GOD.

See?
hate is the demoniser just as Love is the angeliser.

how do we know?
Since God himself says we are to lvoe satan! see matthew 5:43-44 and 1 peter 5:8-9.

Then see exodus 23:22 to see who we love when we love satan as our enemy and adversary!




Love is th holy spirit!
See 1 john 4:16.

Nonxtians who have love have the hs and jc in their hearts! See acts 10:34-35.


WHEW IM DONE FOR NOW!!!!!

JUST KIDDING
 
Since Love is unconditional,
the first sin is to hate any word.
Therefore to hate hell is to be in hell or in a hellish attitude!
Hate of self as any word is the attitude that creates a spiritual or psychological or mental or emotional hell.
Therefore living in hate of self as any word is to make a hell out of life NOW.
So hell is not a physical state or a future state, but an attitude of mind, a state of mind.

Love of self as all words makes a heaven out of hell on earth and makes double heaven out of heaven.
Thus, heaven is not a place but a state of mind that makes heaven on earth and any place you lvoe or being with anyone you love heaven!


1. Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you,
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause IS WHO HATES HIS BROTHER AND SO shall be in danger of the judgment of self in hate of self now and so be in hell now:
and whosoever shall say IN HATE to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:
AND whosoever shall say IN HATE, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)

2. Matthew 5:29
And if what thy right eye sees offend thee because you hate what you see, pluck that hate out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that the misuse of Hate for one of thy members should perish by loving all members, and not that thy whole body should be cast into mental hell by hating any word.
Matthew 5:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)

4. Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul that hates: but rather fear him which by hatred is able to destroy both soul and body in that hell of hatred.
Matthew 10:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 10 (Whole Chapter)
5. Matthew 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven OUT OF HATE FOR EARTH, shalt be brought down to hell O EARTH BY THAT HATRED: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 11:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 11 (Whole Chapter)
6. Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter A PEBBLE, and upon this PETRA rock OF LVOE I will build my church; and the gates of THE hell OF HATE shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)

8. Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte OUT OF HATE FOR OTHER CHURCHES OR RELIGIONS, and when he is made OUT OF HATE FOR OTHERS, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves BY DOUBLY COMPOUNDING HIS HATRED FOR HIMSELF.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
9. Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers WHO HATE YOURSELVES AS SNAKES AND AS OTHER WORDS, how can ye escape the damnation of LIVING IN hell RIGHT NOW?
Matthew 23:32-34 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)

15. Luke 16:23
And in hell OF HATE he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22-24 (in Context) Luke 16 (Whole Chapter)
16. Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: THE GROUND, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:26-28 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
17. Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell/GROUND, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:30-32 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
18. James 3:6
And the tongue IN HATE OF WORDS IT SPEAKS *is* PRESENTLY, IN THE FUTURE, *a fire,* a world of iniquity:
so is the tongue USED IN HATRED among our members, WITH that HATRED it defileth[PRESENT TENSE] the whole body, and setteth[PRESENT TENSE] on *fire* the course of nature; and it is set on *fire* of OR BY THE hell OF HATE FOR ANY WORDS.
James 3:5-7 (in Context) James 3 (Whole Chapter)
19. 2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned BY HATRED, but WITH LOVE cast them down to hell WHICH THEY DID BY TAKING THE CASTING DOWN WITH HATRED,
and delivered them into chains of LOVE-LIGHT WHICH CHAINING THEY TOOK IN HATE AND SO MADE THOSE LIGHT-CHAINS INTO CHIANS OF THE darkness OF HATRED, to be reserved unto judgment IN LOVE WHICH JUDGMENT THEY THINK WILL BE IN HATRED;
2 Peter 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
20. Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth IN LOVE, and was dead IN LOVE; and, behold, I am alive IN LOVE for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of OF LOVE TO UNPADLOCK THE HATES OF THE hell OF HATRED and of THE death OF LOVE.
Revelation 1:17-19 (in Context) Revelation 1 (Whole Chapter)
21. Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and THE Hell OF HATRED followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 6:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 6 (Whole Chapter)
22. Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and THE hell OF HATRED delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged WITH LOVE: every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:12-14 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
23. Revelation 20:14
And THE death OF LOVE AND and THE hell OF HATRED were cast into the lake of fire WHILE ALL HUMANS ARE SHOWN HOW TO STAY AIVE IN LOVE FOREVER. This DEATH OF HATRED is the second death.
Revelation 20:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
 
Hi, You said that you see Jesus as a wise philosopher, and a good role model. Now Jesus said that He was God. If He said He was God, knowing He wasn't, He was a liar, and if He said He was God, and didn't know He wasn't, He was a lunatic. But if He said He was God, and He is, we only have two choices, either to accept, or reject that. He wasn't a very good role model, pholosopher, or good teacher if He was a liar or a lunatic, so we either have to deal with that, or accept Him as God.
 
Hi, You said that you see Jesus as a wise philosopher, and a good role model. Now Jesus said that He was God. If He said He was God, knowing He wasn't, He was a liar, and if He said He was God, and didn't know He wasn't, He was a lunatic. But if He said He was God, and He is, we only have two choices, either to accept, or reject that. He wasn't a very good role model, pholosopher, or good teacher if He was a liar or a lunatic, so we either have to deal with that, or accept Him as God.


EH!? Where did Jesus say he was god? I must of missed that lol..... Also then isn't jesus a deciever? and a liar? and why would that be a good role model?... I am of course, speaking of when he was baptised and the voice of jah came from the heavens to speak to jesus... What was he throwing his voice to trick those who witnessed this?

Luckily I found an interesting site... Because I hate having to try and remember references from your book....

Why Jesus Isn't God or part of a Him, as in a Trinity There are thousands more than this in the bible too... IF, IF jesus was jah.... the book makes many mistakes and contradicts itself a million times over....
 
Hi, You said that you see Jesus as a wise philosopher, and a good role model. Now Jesus said that He was God. If He said He was God, knowing He wasn't, He was a liar, and if He said He was God, and didn't know He wasn't, He was a lunatic. But if He said He was God, and He is, we only have two choices, either to accept, or reject that. He wasn't a very good role model, pholosopher, or good teacher if He was a liar or a lunatic, so we either have to deal with that, or accept Him as God.

Hi Grace and welcome,

In defense of shadowman, not that he needs any, I would like to address your comments which appear logical but only from a particular perspective. First you say that Jesus said He was God. That assumes that the translation you are using is a factual statement by Jesus of what he actually said 2000 years ago. Second, I take it that you perceive he said that based not on a direct quotation because my Bible doesn't say that directly.

I find 80 occurences in the gospels where he refers to himself as the 'son of man' even when he is asked directly. 28 times he was referred to as the 'son of God' with 5 of the 28 being in red letters as spoken by him. He refers to God as his Father numerous times but he also tells his disciples and others he speaks to, that God is their father. He says to glorify your Father which is in Heaven. Once he says, I and my father are One but he follows by saying that "ye" also may be One even as we are One which does not equate to Jesus is God anymore than "ye" are. He also said before Abraham was, I am but that only means he was around before the man Abraham came on the scene. If man is an eternal spirit and not flesh then being around before Abraham doesn't cancel out Jesus's claims that he is only the 'son of God' or 'son of man'. That divinity operated in him, I have no doubt but that is not the question. Divinity can operate in you. The question is "Did Jesus himself really say he was God?"

That would at least pose some connflicts with your statement giving me the choice to only either classify him as a liar/lunatic or God. Hopefully you can see the fallacy in your logic. My view of him is neither of the choices you have given.

Love in Christ,
JM

PS Because I have taken a conflicting view to yours is not to say that I agree or disagree with all of shadowmans post. It was only to give you another view to consider concerning your comment.
 
Last edited:
hi Shadowman -

i dont trust churches or the bible even since it was compiled later, is very psychologically powerful, and has canonical texts (scriptures about jesus) that were not included in it

You then go on to quote at length from an unreliable source that you don't trust ... isn't this rather contradictory?

Thomas
 
lol... now, how I see jesus... a man, born of a woman, has a visionary type experience, sees god, tells ppl about it, and what he thinks it means, and what he thinks god wants, 2000 years later, we're still all talking about him... aint he great?

a man, yes, but a holy man, inspired by the holy spirit (I don't have Jahovah in my picture, sorry) to tell men to be brothers and set them free... I see a man who was pious, and offered himself up to God, as a sacrifice, but who also liked a party, and a drink, I see a visionary, a liberator, a compassionate man, who rejected the conventional religosity and morality about him and who sought something finer, something truer, in the hope other ppl might also know heaven on earth, and know God, also...

I have no great theology to support this, but will reread the gospels and maybe one day edit my piece with cunning snippets of wisdom...
 
hi Shadowman -

i dont trust churches or the bible even since it was compiled later, is very psychologically powerful, and has canonical texts (scriptures about jesus) that were not included in it

You then go on to quote at length from an unreliable source that you don't trust ... isn't this rather contradictory?

Thomas

no because i do not beleive he was god.
 
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