Why does Baha'i accept Shia and not Sunni?

Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by Seeker_of_truth, Nov 8, 2006.

  1. Seeker_of_truth

    Seeker_of_truth Well-Known Member

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    This question has been bothering me lately, if somebody could illumine this thread with their knowledge i'd appreciate it :)

    -Seeker_of_truth
     
  2. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    What Baha'is accept is the Shiah version of events in early Islam...and not the current practices or doctrines. So in other words we Baha'is accept that Ali was the rightful successor to Prophet Muhammad rather than Abu Bakr, Omar or Uthman... After Ali was assasinated we would accept Ali's son Hasan... and his younger son Husayn and so on down to the twelfth Imam.

    As to the four Babs that came later we wouldn't accept that or that the Twelfth Imam was somewhere alive physically hidden awaiting appearance or that he was guiding the state. So all we do accept is that Ali and his descendents down to the twelfth Imam were the rightful successors and not Muawiyyih and his descendents...

    Since we accept the Bab Siyyid Ali Muhammad as a descendent of Prophet Muhammad it is also reasonable I would maintain that we would accept a Shiah version of the early history of Islam.

    - Art
     
  3. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    It's rather like the split between Protestantism and the Roman Church, or the earlier split between the Roman and Eastern Church.

    All those who profess Christ as the Son of Man and the Son of God are Christians despite their differences.

    All those who profess Muhammed as the Apostle of God are likewise Muslims.

    In a Baha`i view of course . . .

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  4. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that one will accept Shiah history which has also come to us through traditions, but not accept Shiah traditions about the Mahdi. The occultation o the 12th Imam and its meaning were explained by the Prophet - 260 years before it actually happened. Is'nt there a contradiction of sorts here? Also, how can one accept Ali was right and accept all his words except for those which are about the Mahdi?

    Regards
    Imran
     
  5. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Baha'i

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    Hi again!

     
  6. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Why is it that one will accept Shiah history which has also come to us through traditions, but not accept Shiah traditions about the Mahdi. The occultation o the 12th Imam and its meaning were explained by the Prophet - 260 years before it actually happened. Is'nt there a contradiction of sorts here? Also, how can one accept Ali was right and accept all his words except for those which are about the Mahdi?

    Regards
    Imran

    My reply:

    We're pretty much in agreement that Muawiyyih and Yazid took Islam off on the wrong tangent...Had it followed Imam Hasan and Imam Husayn history would probably be quite different but the issue of succession is the topic here.

    I responded to you as I recall some months ago about the issue of the Mahdi and the Twefth Imam...that we believe Bab fulfilled that.

    You may not accept that and that is indeed your choice!

    - Art
     
  7. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Surah Ahzab (No 33, verse no 33). The word Ahlul Bayt comes in this verse. The Holy Prophet clarified that his Ahlul Bayt includes Ali, Hasan, Husain, Fatemah and the nine children from the loins of Husain by name till Mohammed Ibnil Hasan - the same Mohammed ibnil Hasan who the Bab refers to reverentially in Dalaelus Sabah, Tafseere Surah Kausar, Sahifae' Adaliyah and other books.

    Needless to say, this interpretation of the word Ahlul Bayt (lit. Family of the House, of the prophet) is not mine, but that of the Prophet himself. Left to ourselves, we would be indulging in pure conjecture about the true meaning of the word Ahlul Bayt.

    Also, please read my web site, especially the part on the Bab v/s the Mahdi and the Bab v/s the Holy Prophet of Islam. At present, I do not have a section on the verses of the Quran about the Mahdi. But I have only 2 hands and can do only this much. So as and when I get time, I will put that up.

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  8. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Dear Art,

    My posts may not convey this, but believe me, I am happy tp lap up all that you can throw at me. Just as long as there is a rational and some proof beind it. If you believe in the Shiah side of Islam, then you will know that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) were peerless and incomparable. They have set, in my view, unmatched standards of ethics, morality, knowledge and courage. If you want Shiahs to accept the Bab just like that. It will not happen. But yes, if we can see something from our Prophet and Imams that yes, someone even closely resembling the Bab will be the Mahdi, then it will be good. Till then, I will ask. Unfortunately, my questions are percieved as attacks on the Faith. It is not so. I am only asking.

    As regards, your response, you only gave me an expected answer - Bahaullah says Bab is Mahdi etc. Show us where the Bab matches the Islamic prophecies of the Mahdi. The Mahdi is an Islamic concept, right? The Bahais, incl yourself are claiming that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Bab. I am only asking - HOW?

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  9. Seeker_of_truth

    Seeker_of_truth Well-Known Member

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  10. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    So Why Do Baha`i's Accept the Shi'ih View of the Succession Above the Sunni View?

    THE HOLY IMAMS
    As Muhammad lay dying, He called for materials to write. He said,
    "Fetch Me hither ink and paper, that I may record for you a writing
    which shall hinder you from going astray forever." But 'Umar said,
    "Pain is deluding Him. We have God's Book, which is enough." So
    the companions wrangled at the deathbed, whether to bring the
    materials and write the words, and Muhammad sent them away.
    At the taking of Mecca, surih 110 of the Qur'án had been
    revealed; Muhammad regarded it as the warning of His own death; it
    states: "When the help of God and the victory arrive, And thou
    seest men entering the religion of God by troops; Then utter the
    praise of the Lord, implore His pardon; for He loveth to turn in
    mercy." Tradition says that when it was revealed He called Fatimih
    and said, "My daughter! I have received intimation of My
    approaching end." And Fatimih wept. And he said, "Why weepest
    thou....? Be comforted...."
    The Hidden Words is the Hidden Book of Fatimih -- the words which
    Gabriel brought to mitigate her anguish: for she had seen her
    Father's death, and, forty days after the Prophet had ascended, the
    schism in Islam beginning before her eyes. Those unknown words
    addressed to Fatimih were believed by Shí'ah Islam to be in the
    possession of the Promised One Who would come from the line of her
    descendants; and they were called "Hidden" because all down the
    centuries their content was unknown.
    Muhammad had unmistakably appointed His successor, but nothing
    had been written down. The Qur'án, so detailed in other things, is
    silent here.
    When the Prophet was returning from His Farewell Pilgrimage to
    Mecca, He had the caravan halt; He told the concourse of people to
    gather in the shade of some thorn trees, and had them build a
    pulpit of saddles, near the Pool of Khumm. Then He raised 'Ali up
    and said, "Whoever hath Me as his Master, hath 'Ali as his
    Master...I have been summoned to the gate of God, and I shall soon
    depart...to be concealed from you." Then He spoke of two treasures
    He would leave them: "The greatest treasure is the Book of
    God...Hold fast to it and do not lose it and do not change it. The
    other treasure is the line of My descendants."
    The great tragedy of Islam is that three men, one after the
    other, took over the headship of the Faith for a period of twenty-
    four years, and that all this time the Imam 'Ali was forced to
    stand aside. He must have suffered untold agonies as He watched the
    irreparable damage being done, knowing all the time in His heart
    that He was the intended of God -- the Imam, the one who stands
    before the people, the divinely ordained, divinely inspired.
    Muhammad was dead. The people could not accept this. They had seen
    Him in the mosque, only a little time before; His voice still
    echoed there. 'Umar came into the room and lifted the sheet which
    covered the Prophet; then he stood at the street door and
    proclaimed to the people that Muhammad had only swooned away; 'Ali
    simply looked at 'Umar and wept; Abu Bakr entered, lifted the
    striped sheet, and kissed the dead face. And he said, "Sweet Thou
    wert in life, sweet in death." Then he hurried to the mosque and
    remonstrated with 'Umar and said, "Let him then know, whosoever
    30
    worshippeth Muhammad, that Muhammad is dead; but whoso worshippeth
    God, let him know that the Lord liveth." And while 'Ali, the
    appointed Imam, was grieving over the body of His Beloved, and the
    funeral washings had not yet been made, 'Umar and Abu Bakr were
    seeing to their appointment as caliph (successor). In the mosque,
    the leaders of the various groups were proposing 'Ali and others
    as successor, when 'Umar settled the matter by swearing allegiance
    to Abu Bakr, who had himself proposed 'Umar; each seems to have
    been in collusion with the other, against 'Ali.
    The Prophet was washed for burying by 'Ali, without removal of
    His garment, while some held the water vessels; then He was wrapped
    in three shrouds, two of white material and one striped, and
    covered with fragrant ointments; then the grave was dug in the same
    room of 'Ayishih's house where the deathbed had been. The people
    came to pray beside the Body, as it lay by the grave, and when all
    this was done, a few of them lowered it down: 'Ali was the last to
    climb up out of the grave, before it was filled with earth. (Cf.
    M. Tabari, III, 217 ff.).
    (Islamic Miscellaneous, Gail - Six Lessons on Islam, p. 28)
    Regards,
    Scott
     
  11. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Seeker of truth.. There's a good overview of the issues at Wikipedia... over the past few years I've noticed that the articles are fairly impartial and informative... Scroll down at the bottom of the article for the Baha'i view:

    Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    - Art
     
  12. Seeker_of_truth

    Seeker_of_truth Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks friend. I was wondering if you knew of an in-depth analysis of specific prophecies that the Bab fulfiled.
     
  13. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for a very good link. The Shiite point of view is perfect. One can expand on it a lot more. But overall very good link.

    The ciritical question is in the bahai viewpoint - Bahais believe that Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the 12th Imam. Obviously these were Islamic prophecies. Which were these?

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  14. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Try reading the book "Thief in the Night" by Bill Sears. It's more from a Christian perspective but still excelllent! It's very inexpensive and can be obtained through many outlets and the Baha'i Distribution Trust:

    Bahai Distribution Service

    This site has a wealth of other material as well.

    - Art
     
  15. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Imran wrote:

    If you want Shiahs to accept the Bab just like that. It will not happen. But yes, if we can see something from our Prophet and Imams that yes, someone even closely resembling the Bab will be the Mahdi, then it will be good.

    My comment:

    What I would want is for there to be more freedom of worship in Iran so people could independently find truth by themselves without state intervention or coercion.

    - Art
     
  16. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Uh, huh. We're back to Iran. Why can't we answer the question. Which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill. When I read this, I wonder, why I am the only person who is accused of hijacking threads.

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  17. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Art, once again for a very helpful link. Is there something on this topic from an Islamic perspective.

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  18. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    We're back to Iran because our brethren are dying and being persecuted there. What is YOUR attitude to the persecution of Baha`i's in Iran. You said they should go, but you ignore the fact that the government will not allow them to leave legally without recanting their faith first.

    Where is the justice in that? Muhammad Who said there should be no compulsion in religion would hide His face in shame at the actions of the Iranian Government.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  19. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Imran,

    What did Muhammad say was "proof" of the Qur'an?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  20. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Scott:

    you're hijacking this thread!!

    (just joking!) :)

    Scott, lets finish the discussion on the Bab being the Mahdi please. Inshallah, if Allah grants us life, we can always discuss about the proofs of the Quran, which incidentally both Muslims and Bahais believe in.

    But the bone of contention is the Bab being the Mahdi. I have probably asked this question 50 times and yet I have received no reply from a Bahai with an Islamic source. Ironic considering that all Bahais believe in it but seem to shy from substantiating what is genuinely a pertinent question.

    Before signing off, let me tell you why.

    The Holy Prophet (pbuh) informed us that Islam will not end till the reappearance of the Mahdi. The reappearance of the Mahdi will be followed by Qiyamat. So be it.

    If the Bab is not the Mahdi, then from an Islamic perspective, it is some person else. Who is that Mahdi, we can all come to a conclusion later. But it also means that Islam is still in force as the last divine religion.

    I fear death - noth death itself, but what happens after death. When I die and am questioned in the grave, I want to make sure, I have the right answers backed by reasoning and not by blind faith.

    Tell me what prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill. This is a statement which is so liberally used by the Bahais (though over the last 12 months or so, the official Bahai web site desists from saying so) and it is invariably followed by saying that the Bab prophecised the coming of One Whom Allah Will Manifest - lets first establish that the Bab had some standing in the first place before expecting us ordinary Muslims to take him seriously.

    And try and understand our skepticism - we are a community which has seen probably the most number of fraudsters - individuals who claimed to be the prophet, the Mahdi etc. Why is my questions being viewed with such suspicion. Lets just answer the question and move ahead.

    I hope it is clear where I am coming from.

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     

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