Why does Baha'i accept Shia and not Sunni?

Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by Seeker_of_truth, Nov 8, 2006.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    "I hope it is clear where I am coming from."

    Imran,

    Judging by your slipperiness here and your website, where you come from is all too obvious.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    To get back to the topic. The proofs of the Qur'an and the proofs of the Bab and Baha`u'llah should be just the same.

    So, I ask: What did Muhammad say was proof of the Qur'an? Once we know that to your satisfaction we can apply the same measure to the claims of the Bab and Baha`u'llah.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  3. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Nope, I am not falling for that.

    "Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Hidden Imam." What were these prophecies? We are not discussing miracles here.

    Regards, as always
    Imran Shaykh
     
  4. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Slipperiness or otherwise does not matter to me. Can you enlighten me on how the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Hidden Imam from Islamic sources. Changing the topic to Iran, Mohammed miracle of the Quran etc is not something I am going to fall for.

    It is such an assertive statement made so casually by the Bahais at all forums. So why cant it be substantiated independently by the Bahais. Why do you have to lean on my response on how the Quran was a miracle for the Prophet (pbuh) to substantiate the Bab. If you really want to know my view on the Prophet v/s the Bab, go read my web site or permit me to link it here.

    Request your answer to the question - What prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill?

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  5. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    The question of prophecies fulfilled:

    Actually we have been responding this question of the Bab fulfilling the prophecies of the Return of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi.

    Here's a summary of the references I've personally posted and I've expanded some of the salient areas to clarify:

    Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and where the Baha'i view is mentioned:

    "Bahá'ís believe that the Imam Mahdi has already returned and fulfilled all the prophecies, many of them in a symbolic sense, in the person of Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází, known as the Báb (1819-1850). The Shaykhi movement of the early 19th century claimed to reestablish the connection to the hidden Imam, and on the night of 22 May 1844, the Báb declared that he was the "Gate" to the Promised One of all religions. In 1848 the Báb and his followers began to teach more openly, and the Báb was publicly executed in 1850."

    You'll note above how the Shaykhi movement claimed to have reestablished connection with the Hidden Imam? The Shaykhi movement is an important starting point to understand the early Babi history...many of the students of Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim became followers of the Bab, thus the connection.

    On July 30th 2006 I posted this information:

    "On the other hand, the last Imam disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab.

    Cited from "The Dawn Breakers" Chapter XIII

    Also on July 30th I posted this information:

    All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.")

    (Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

    On August 7th I posted this information:

    Despite the historical improbability of a Twelfth Imam, the existence of traditions attesting his occultation and eventual return created a kind of messianic determinism, in which a body of speculation represented as Imami akhbar raised fantastic and thus unrealistic expectations about any future religious renewal. Thus, the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken with the utmost seriousness."

    - Kitab-i-Iqan
    by Christopher Buck
    Published in Encyclopedia Iranica

    Note the words: "...the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken withthe utmost seriousness."

    Earlier today I made refereences to a site "Islam and the Baha'i Faith" and here is a section of the fulfillment of prophecies:

    "One theme that is common among most religions is the promise of redemption, renewal of religion and salvation, through the coming of a Promised One, to "fill earth with justice as it has been filled with tyranny", (or in Christian terminology, to establish God's Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven). Each group has called this Promised One by a different name: "Al- Mahdi" (the Guided One), "Al-Qa'im" (the One who Rises), "Sahibul Zaman" (Lord of the Age), Lord of Hosts. Muslims are also promised the return of Jesus (PBUH), as do Christians also await the second coming of Christ. Other religions also await their own Promised One, Whom they know by other different names.

    All religions also, warn of false prophets. They warn of the "Dajjal" (the Liar, the one who misguides). They warn of the anti-christ.

    So how does one distinguish between the truth and falsehood? Are we left on our own to find out? Would it be better to play it safe and reject all claimants?

    What should be obvious is that, the very fact that we are warned of false prophets, should tell us that the True One is surely to come, (albeit it would not be easy to recognize Him). Otherwise, if we weren't admonished to believe in such glad tidings, or if the signs and proofs were to be so clear and obvious, the false ones wouldn't think that they had a chance to impersonate Him falsely. They wouldn't even try, because we would not be expecting anyone to come in the first place.

    God says that as long as we make an effort to seek His guidance, His mercy will protect us from being misguided by others:

    "And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good."
    - Qur'an 29:69

    When Christ warned His disciples about false prophets, He (PBUH) also provided them with a criterion to help them distinguish between the truth and the sayings of those false prophets:

    "Beware of false prophets ... Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
    (Matt. 7:15-20)

    Similarly, we see in the Holy Qur'an:

    "Seest thou not to what God likeneth a good word? To a good tree; its root firmly fixed, and its branches reaching unto heaven: yielding its fruit in all seasons."
    - Qur'an 14:24

    Source:

    Prophecy and Proof

    There are probably some more I could post but as these have already been cited or alluded to I'll close with these.

    - Art
     
  6. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Re: The question of prophecies fulfilled:

    Thank you, here are my responses.

    Why in an symbolic sense. And once again, which prophecies did he fulfill even if it be in a symblic sense?

    I recognise that the Shaykh school is an important connection and I have written about it on my web site.

    I also mentioned that his tradition is not found in any Shiite book. This seems to have been conjured up by Shoghi for there are immunerable traditions which are clear that the time of the coming of the 12th Imam is unknown except to Allah.

    It is also Shoghi's assertion that the time of prophetic manidestation is closed. We do not find any tradition to that effect. The process of inspiration closed with the Prophet. Then the Imams succeeded the prophet as the defender and the interpretors of the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. Till the Imam is alive, we will have an interpretor of the Quran and the sunnah.

    My respsonse is the same as earlier. Why is Islam being counted from 260 AH and not from 13 years before the calender. Why is the 273 years being ignored?

    Iqan - Bahai source. I asked for Islamic source. Also, this seems to be a new dimension. Bab fulfilled the prophecies, but he did not really....confusing? But again, this does not speak of any prophecies.

    I could not agree with you more. Having said that, there are 1000's of traditions about the Mahdi in Islam. Just as you and me, our Prophet (pbuh) was inspired that there will be false claimants. So the prophet (pbuh) informed us through his traditions and his successors likewise. Why are all these traditions being ignored? We can all ask for guidance, but if we wish to turn our face away from its source, it will be tough.

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  7. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    "It is also Shoghi's assertion that the time of prophetic manidestation is closed. We do not find any tradition to that effect. The process of inspiration closed with the Prophet. Then the Imams succeeded the prophet as the defender and the interpretors of the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. Till the Imam is alive, we will have an interpretor of the Quran and the sunnah."

    According to Shi'ih beliefs the Imams (1-12) were the source of inspirtaion. That their collective word was from God and made the inspiration connection last for 260 years after the passing of the 12th Imam.

    The Imam Jafar i Sadiq was the sixth Imam, of course. I would point out that the real rub isnot fitting the Bab into the mold of the Qaim, but in determining what "Judgement Day" means. I do not believe that people living in Judgement Day necessarily even know that it happened around them. Judgement Day is when the Manifestation of God declares Himself and the peoples of the earth respon in acceptance or rejection.


    [SIZE=-1]39:67 No just estimate have they made of God, such as is due to Him: On the[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Day of Judgment the whole of the earth will be but His handful, and the[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]heavens will be rolled up in His right hand: Glory to Him! High is He above[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]the Partners they attribute to Him![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]39:68 The Trumpet will (just) be sounded, when all that are in the heavens and[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]on earth will swoon, except such as it will please God (to exempt). Then will[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]a second one be sounded, when, behold, they will be standing and looking on![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]39:69 And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]wronged (in the least).[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]39:70 And to every soul will be paid in full (the fruit) of its Deeds; and[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1](God) knoweth best all that they do.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]39:71 The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until, when they arrive,[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]there, its gates will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not apostles[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord,[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]and warning you of the Meeting of This Day of yours?" The answer will be:[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]"True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Unbelievers!"[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]-- Qur'an: 39 - AZ-ZUMAR[/SIZE]

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  8. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    "...there are 1000's of traditions about the Mahdi in Islam. Just as you and me, our Prophet (pbuh) was inspired that there will be false claimants. So the prophet (pbuh) informed us through his traditions and his successors likewise. Why are all these traditions being ignored?"


    The problem I see Imran with your approach is that the coming of the great Messengers of God do not always occur according to "traditions".

    Was Jesus coming been entirely within what was expected by the Pharisees?

    The Pharisees were the most knowledgeable of the traditions of Messiah and they for teh most part denied their Lord.

    If men are entirely guided by their "traditions" they will remain blind because they will always be guided by those who are rich in traditions and study them all their lives, i.e., the ecclesiastics or Mullas, and who will be unresponsive to a new revelation.

    In this day men are to be guided by their own search and held responsible for themselves they cannot rely anymore on the clergy to lead them.

    - Art
     
  9. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Scott:

    Once again, these interpretations are your own and tangential to what the prophet and the Imams told us. So we will leave it at that.

    I notice, that you keep on wavering to other topics whenever the question of the Bab comes up - sometimes to Iran, sometimes to my web site, the Holy Prophet, the Quran and now to the Day of Judgement. Everything but an assertion about the prophecies.

    ""I would point out that the real rub isnot fitting the Bab into the mold of the Qaim, but in determining what "Judgement Day" means. I do not believe that people living in Judgement Day necessarily even know that it happened around them. Judgement Day is when the Manifestation of God declares Himself and the peoples of the earth respon in acceptance or rejection.""

    Where dod you get this new theory that Judgement day is when a Manifestation of God declared himself?

    The Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the 12th Imam. Where and what were these prophecies? It is a straightforward question whose reply must be starightforward as well.

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  10. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Art, the Bahais told us that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies about the 12th Imam.

    In the previous quote, you brought one tradition from Dawn Breakers from Imam Sadiq (as) liberally narrated by Shoghi which I clarified was absent in any book. And I also requested that you inform me or Shoghi informs us where he read this tradition.

    Now you tell me that traditions come in the way of accepting the 12th Imam?
    Is'nt there some sort of contradiction here?

    Nonetheless, which prophecies of the 12th Imam did the Bab fulfill. Can you just outline them please?

    Regards, as always
    Imran
     
  11. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Imran,

    Why try to manipulate people into supplying you with what you think you want to hear? Just deal with the topic. Post your questions, you compaints, etc. straight forwardly.

    If you think Arthra or I are being difficult, I would remind you you still have not answered my question about how you feel about the persecution of Baha`i's in Iran, now have you?

    Why should we be more cooperative than you are willing to be.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  12. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    You asked for my view earlier. I gave it. But how is this question about Iran (a political issue) related to the prophecies of the Bab?

    You are asking me to post my question as if I have been hiding it for all this time! And who am I to manipulate what I want to hear? I have not given any views at this post. I only ask my question and sit like a humble student waiting to hear from his teachers.

    My question is very clear -

    The Bahais claim the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the 12th Imam. I ask which prophecies. Please let me know from Islamic sources.

    I hope the question is clear. I will be difficult for me to spell it further.

    If you want to discuss about Iran, I may not be so keen. I have mentioned it earlier - it is political issue and I have questions for both Iran and the Bahais. So I will refrain from making my comments. Besides, Allah will not question me for the actions of the Iranis. But He will definitely do so if I have not followed the correct 12th Imam. That is why I keep on asking you which prophecies of the 12th Imam, as claimed by the Bahais, did the Bab fulfill?

    Regards, as always.
    Imran
     
  13. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Imran,

    Did you buy up the world supply of Macassar Oil?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  14. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Baha'i

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    Scott, Imran already stated he doesn't object to the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran (nor, apparently, to their being denied exit from Iran unless they first deny their faith), as I pointed out in an earlier reply to him where I called him on this! :-(

    Regards,
    Bruce
     
  15. IMSassafras

    IMSassafras A Believer

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    Hello Everyone,

    Call me crazy, but isn't the information that Imran is looking for in the book The Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih (The Seven Proofs) by the Bab? If so, then the only problem is it hasn't been translated completely.

    Imran, you are welcome to check this out. Hopefully you can read Arabic.
    Arabic and Persian Babi Texts

    I should add, if you plan to come back here and discuss the content, remember friend, only a little of the Book has been translated to English, that I can find. Also, keep in mind, there are other works from both the Bab and Baha'u'llah which have not been translated yet which might answer your current questions and future ones.... The key is they haven't been translated yet.

    English translations:
    There is are 4 excerpts from The Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih here:
    Selections from the Writings of the Báb 4 EXCERPTS FROM DALÁ'IL-I-SAB`IH (The Seven Proofs)

    A Wiki Quote here:
    Báb - Wikiquote

    Want more? Put Dalá'il-i-Sab'ih in Google and hit search.


    warmly,
    Sassafras
     
  16. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Actually what he said was the "Iranians tell them to go." I did not consider that to be what Imran believes. So he continues to evade the question while insisting on answers to his own.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Mick!

    Thanks for pointing out that provisional translation. I quote one section of it here:
    "
    LET Me set forth some rational arguments for thee. If someone desireth to embrace the Faith of Islám today, would the testimony of God prove conclusive for him? If thou dost contend that it would not, then how is it that God will chastise him after death, and that, while he lives, the verdict of `non-believer' is passed upon him? If thou affirmest that the testimony is conclusive, how wouldst thou prove this? If thy assertion is based on hearsay, then mere words are unacceptable as a binding testimony; but if thou deemest the Qur'án as the testimony, this would be a weighty and evident proof.
    Now consider the Revelation of the Bayán. If the followers of the Qur'án had applied to themselves proofs similar to those which they advance for the non-believers in Islám, not a single soul would have remained deprived of the Truth, and on the Day of Resurrection everyone would have attained salvation.
    Should a Christian contend, `How can I deem the Qur'án a testimony while I am unable to understand it?' such a contention would not be acceptable. Likewise the people of the Qur'án disdainfully observe, `We are unable to comprehend the eloquence of the verses in the Bayán, how can we regard it as a testimony?' Whoever uttereth such words, say unto him, `O thou untutored one! By what proof hast thou embraced the Religion of Islám? Is it the Prophet on whom thou hast never set eyes? Is it the miracles which thou hast never witnessed? If thou hast accepted Islám unwittingly, wherefore hast thou done so? But if thou hast embraced the Faith by recognizing the Qur'án as the testimony, because thou hast heard the learned and the faithful express their powerlessness before it, or if thou hast, upon hearing the divine verses and by virtue of thy spontaneous love for the True Word of God, responded in a spirit of utter humility and lowliness--a spirit which is one of the mightiest signs of true love and understanding--then such proofs have been and will ever be regarded as sound.' "

    Regards,

    Scott
     
  18. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    Thank you, Scott, but actually it was Sassafras that posted the reference to the translations.

    Mick
     
  19. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Thanks also to Sassafras. I have known of the Resource Library for years, but did not think of searching there for that particular document.

    One can also find provisional translations of Ode to the Dove, The Tablet of All Foods (which was the first prophetic writing of Baha`u'llah immediately after His release from the prison of Siyah Chal. Many wonderful things.

    One should be aware that the translations are PROVISIONAL, not authorized or authoritative.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  20. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. If you read my web site, especially the section of the Bab, you will see that I am fairly proficient in Arabic and Persian. so no issues there. I have the entire Dalaelus Sabah. If you like I can send it to you. If you like, I can give another location where the book is available in its entirety. My friend who wrote the article has used the relevant portions of Dalaelus Sabah on the web site.

    While questioning which prophecies of the Mahdi which the Bab fulfilled, I had asked, at the outset, about the books of the Bab which are accepted by the Bahais. I was informed that the Bahais consider the books as forgeries and only those which are authorised by the Bahais can be considered as correct. I have no problem with that. I only wanted to know then that which books of the Bab are not forgeries so that we can focus on reading those.

    Incidentally, if you read even these books of the Bab (forgeries or otherwise) , you may see that the Bab denies that he was the Mahdi and calls out to someone else by name and title as the Mahdi. The name and the multiple titles used by the Bab are exactly as per Shiite beliefs. he calls the Mahdi as Baqiyatullah, Sahabaz Zaman etc. In one of his books he also says that he saw a person in Mecca near the Kaaba and thought that he was the Mahdi. He tried to go towards the person but could not. When one reads these sentences, it creates a doubt which needs to be clarified.

    But the Bahais say that they are forgeries and we will leave it at that. I therefore changed the question and presented it from an Islamic viewpoint. Which prophecies of the Mahdi did the Bab fulfill?

    Just one point: The SWB was released in 1976. Four quotations were brought from Salaelus Sabah from that. Obviosuly some person may have read the entire book then and then chosen those 4 quotations. My point is that not only has the entire book not been released since then, but now the book is branded as a forgery.

    Respectfully yours, as always
    Imran
     

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