No mind....

[17th Angel]

How do you people get your mind to be no mind? I mean, heh.. *ponders* How do you shut off your mind and stop it from thinking, to get this clear and thoughtless experience? Just from breathing techniques?

I was kinda trying this in the bath last night lol..... Every now and then my mind would "turn on".

 

[17th Angel]

Also off topic.... But still kind of education for me of Buddhism... The monkey king? lol... Was that real in Buddhism?

"In the worlds before Monkey, primal chaos reigned. Heaven sought order. But the phoenix can fly only when its feathers are grown. The four worlds formed again and yet again, as endless aeons wheeled and passed. Time and the pure essences of Heaven and the moisture of Earth, the powers of the sun and the moon all worked upon a certain rock, old as creation. And it became magically fertile. The first egg was named "Thought". Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said, "With our thoughts, we make the world." Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch. From it then came a stone monkey. The nature of monkey was irrepressible!"

 

[toujour_333]

namaste

as far as no mind, the times that i have experienced it has been a joy. theres no real way to explain 'how' to experience it b/c everyone has different ways that work for them. for me, it started out with only a few seconds of no thoughts, then went to a minute or two, and then on up. now, i cant just sit down and say, "okay, its time for me to turn on no-mind', and it happens. sometimes when i sit and meditate, it happens, and sometimes i am plagued by millions of thoughts. but, that alone teaches one the dharma of impermanace. the dharma is everywhere in ur life, u just have to look for it
the right way.

but, my suggestion would be start with focusing on the breath. its a bit more than just breathing practices. its actually a very focused meditation when done correctly. maybe u should research it a bit more and look at a few different interpretations on that specific meditation and then find the one that works for u best and practice it. that might be benificial.

as far as the other topic about the monkeys, im not sure since i had previously never heard that quote before. however, the part that sticks out to me is the part... "the first egg was named 'Thought'. Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said, 'with our thoughts, we make the world.' Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch."

that part specifically stuck out to me. i like what it was saying to me. when studying buddhism, u have to look beyond words and their basic meanings into a deeper meaning which lies within the dharma. not to mention, like Vaj mentioned to me when i was having some trouble with buddhist cosmology, i was told that the buddha taught based on the specific level of enlightenment of the person that he was speaking to, so some of the teachings may not make sense to you just because that teaching may have been meant for someone more or less enlightened than yourself.

i hope that i have helped answer ur questions.

be well in peace

 

[17th Angel]

namaste

as far as no mind, the times that i have experienced it has been a joy. theres no real way to explain 'how' to experience it b/c everyone has different ways that work for them. for me, it started out with only a few seconds of no thoughts, then went to a minute or two, and then on up. now, i cant just sit down and say, "okay, its time for me to turn on no-mind', and it happens. sometimes when i sit and meditate, it happens, and sometimes i am plagued by millions of thoughts. but, that alone teaches one the dharma of impermanace. the dharma is everywhere in ur life, u just have to look for it
the right way.

but, my suggestion would be start with focusing on the breath. its a bit more than just breathing practices. its actually a very focused meditation when done correctly. maybe u should research it a bit more and look at a few different interpretations on that specific meditation and then find the one that works for u best and practice it. that might be benificial.

as far as the other topic about the monkeys, im not sure since i had previously never heard that quote before. however, the part that sticks out to me is the part... "the first egg was named 'Thought'. Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said, 'with our thoughts, we make the world.' Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch."

that part specifically stuck out to me. i like what it was saying to me. when studying buddhism, u have to look beyond words and their basic meanings into a deeper meaning which lies within the dharma. not to mention, like Vaj mentioned to me when i was having some trouble with buddhist cosmology, i was told that the buddha taught based on the specific level of enlightenment of the person that he was speaking to, so some of the teachings may not make sense to you just because that teaching may have been meant for someone more or less enlightened than yourself.

i hope that i have helped answer ur questions.

be well in peace

Toujour comes through again! I really appreciate the help you give me... Katajikenai

I will look into this just to know how it must feel to be no-minded and clear headed, that would be some experience.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

well.. with regards to no mind... the Buddha Shakyamuni goes through a pretty exhaustive listing of various practices which produce merit and are condusive to the spiritual life. from the mundane such as circumambulation to the more esoteric such as offering mountains of jewels.

at the summation of this particular Sutta, the Buddha concludes that all the various practices that he has told to various beings in various states are all included in the single practice of breathing meditation and that this practice, breathing meditation, is the crown of all practice.

of course, the various forms that this takes is varied and diverse from sitting to walking and even occupational so there isn't really a set position, though some schools certainly have their ones which they feel are most effective.

from whence did you get the quote about the monkey king? i would be curious to read the Sutta from which it was extracted.

metta,

~v

 

[seattlegal]

from whence did you get the quote about the monkey king? i would be curious to read the Sutta from which it was extracted.

Um, I think it comes from a Japanese television series called, "Monkey."

 

[Snoopy]

Hi,

Once, when the Great Master Hung-tao of Yueh-shan was sitting in meditation, a monk asked him “What are you thinking, sitting there so fixedly?”
The master answered, “I’m thinking of not-thinking.”
The monk asked “How do you think of not thinking?”
The master answered “Nonthinking.”

Does that help, 17th?!!

I would say “no mind” means this “nonthinking.” By nonthinking I would say this means maintaining effort on refraining from discursive thought.

s.

 

[17th Angel]

Namaste all,

well.. with regards to no mind... the Buddha Shakyamuni goes through a pretty exhaustive listing of various practices which produce merit and are condusive to the spiritual life. from the mundane such as circumambulation to the more esoteric such as offering mountains of jewels.

at the summation of this particular Sutta, the Buddha concludes that all the various practices that he has told to various beings in various states are all included in the single practice of breathing meditation and that this practice, breathing meditation, is the crown of all practice.

of course, the various forms that this takes is varied and diverse from sitting to walking and even occupational so there isn't really a set position, though some schools certainly have their ones which they feel are most effective.

from whence did you get the quote about the monkey king? i would be curious to read the Sutta from which it was extracted.

metta,

~v

Hmm Interesting.

Regards the monkey king It was as seattle said in a show but there is always some truth behind some stories... then I came across this; The Monkey King

Um, I think it comes from a Japanese television series called, "Monkey."

The Monkey King I found this...

Hi,

Once, when the Great Master Hung-tao of Yueh-shan was sitting in meditation, a monk asked him “What are you thinking, sitting there so fixedly?”
The master answered, “I’m thinking of not-thinking.”
The monk asked “How do you think of not thinking?”
The master answered “Nonthinking.”

Does that help, 17th?!!

I would say “no mind” means this “nonthinking.” By nonthinking I would say this means maintaining effort on refraining from discursive thought.

s.

Thanks

 

[seattlegal]

Hi,

Once, when the Great Master Hung-tao of Yueh-shan was sitting in meditation, a monk asked him “What are you thinking, sitting there so fixedly?”
The master answered, “I’m thinking of not-thinking.”
The monk asked “How do you think of not thinking?”
The master answered “Nonthinking.”

Does that help, 17th?!!

I would say “no mind” means this “nonthinking.” By nonthinking I would say this means maintaining effort on refraining from discursive thought.

s.

Faith.
{adds a whole new dimension to "Have Faith in Your Mind," doesn't it?}

 

[17th Angel]

Seattle I prefer your new avatar to your last one

 

[seattlegal]

Seattle I prefer your new avatar to your last one

Thank you.

 

[17th Angel]

Thank you.

Welcome.

 

[Snoopy]

Faith.
{adds a whole new dimension to "Have Faith in Your Mind," doesn't it?}

Hi sg,

You know, I was going to post a similar reference but I refrained. I thought, sg will be wanting to shine a light on this!

s.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste 17th...

hmm... well... without the quote being taken from an actual Sutta/Sutra, i wouldn't be so keen to accept this as part of the canon and, subsequently, i wouldn't choose this to inform my view of the Buddha Dharma.

metta,

~v

 

[earl]

Hi,

Once, when the Great Master Hung-tao of Yueh-shan was sitting in meditation, a monk asked him “What are you thinking, sitting there so fixedly?”
The master answered, “I’m thinking of not-thinking.”
The monk asked “How do you think of not thinking?”
The master answered “Nonthinking.”

Does that help, 17th?!!

I would say “no mind” means this “nonthinking.” By nonthinking I would say this means maintaining effort on refraining from discursive thought.

s.

Hey Snoopy. I'd disagree that it's about refraining from thought. The process isn't to become "thoughtless" as if we could. See for eg:
Dharma Discourse: Yaoshan's Non-Thinking by John Daido Loori Roshi

have a good one, earl

 

[Snoopy]

Hi Earl,

I don't think we have a disagreement. If you see I actually said: "maintaining effort on refraining from discursive thought", not refraining from "thought". So we agree we cannot be thoughtless. The crucial word is "discursive".


s.

 

[Blizzardry]

You don't actually stop the thoughts, just as you can't stop the sea. But you can let them wash around your ankles without getting swept along by them...

 

[Francis king]

I'd have to disagree, and say that u can stop all thought, and ur mind will be clear, but practising "samatha" meditation (cessation, or not thinking meditation) is only part of it... I think that the other part of it actually involves lots of thinking, which seems like a contradiction, but bear with me...

as u probably notice, u practise the basic yet effective "not thinking" meditation and there are moments within ur practise when u reach that clarity of mind that ur looking for, even if it only lasts a few seconds or a few minutes, and thats the kind of clear mind ur aiming for...

however, as soon as you start discriminating between this and that, start thinking about looking out the window, start thinking about whats for dinner, etc, etc, ur mind wanders, so ur supposed to bring it back to ur breathing, or the sensation of ur thumbs in the mudra ur using, but in my humble opinion, this does not always work, and it doesn't work because u have not thought enough beforehand...

if, as a buddhist, u've got to the stage where buddhism is no real mystery anymore for u, and because of that neither is the self, and u are comfortable with ur existance, u stop running around chasing ur own tail, thinking all those big and small things that ppl ponder everyday, then the clarity lasts longer, as its got room to grow in...

we all have thought patterns, we think about the same things in the same way, time and time again, and the idea is samatha allows u to stop this... these thoughts have been created by u, inspired by others, the books u've read, the films u've watched, ur culture, etc, etc, and over time they become this character, but its a fake, its a product of all those things u've been exposed to over the course of ur life, so u sit and do the notthinking to give ur mind a chance to break free of these patterns and eventually u can then sit down and work out who u are and what u really think...

equally, once u have got to a point in ur life where there are very few mysteries left for u to ponder upon full stop, again, that mental clarity within ur meditative practise lasts a lot longer...

I think that if there are things that are biting at ur ankles when ur meditating u should contemplate how useful it is to u, how relevant, and instead of trying to force ur mind to be still, u should maybe, in the early stages at least, analyse these thoughts and try to appreciate what they are, and then dismiss them if they are not important thoughts, and just return each time to ur focus, the breath, the tip of ur nose, the sensation of ur two thumbs touching... of course, u are thinking, ur thinking about the thumbs, the nose, etc, but, after a while, distracting urself from ur thoughts works...

also, u have to watch how much stimulation ur getting from external sources- tv adverts, mtv, soap operas, all these things are designed to hook u in and evoke emotions within u, which they do, add a few cups of coffee to that, and ur mind is making connections between A and D and C and G and u have no room for not thinking...

just my thoughts..

 

[Blizzardry]

Sorry, yeah, I'm bad with words. I meant to say that the process towards stilling the mind involves being separate from your thoughts. When I first tried it, I'd get it, then I'd think "yes, I got it" and then I'd have to start again, each time getting clearer. Let all the thoughts come, focus on your focus and they'll pass away into nothing.

"The power of Monkey was irrepressible!" - Monkey was based on Journey to the West and rocked.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

indeed.. the Buddha Shakyamuni likened the untrained mind to a drunken bull elephant!

back in the day, the various kingdoms of Jampudvita would field war elephants as calvary units, armored and armed. in order to make them charge into battle the elephants would be fed a malt liquor and they would get drunk and charge into battle they were nearly unstoppable and out of control.

i wonder what a more modern metaphor would be?

metta,

~v