Surrendering to Grace

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earl

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Derek-Tariki-would love to see your views on this one. There seems much meeting ground between Christianity (at least of the liberal variety:D ) and Pure Land Buddhism around the subject of grace. Both traditions would say we can do nothing to "earn" grace-it is freely given. However, my understanding of Pure Land views is that they would say that, while it cannot be earned, the trick is in learning how to surrender to it in order for the realization of that grace to dawn within oneself. Grace is not earned by specific acts-reading a Bible x number of times, attending a church x number of times, believing "all the right things," etc. Though do tend to believe that following one of Jesus' few injunctions may be integral to it-that whole love thy neighbor & God thing. But thought it might lead to stimulating interesting dialogue to start a thread like this: how exactly does one "surrender to grace-" what constitutes and facilitates the act of surrendering? have a good one, earl
 
Hey earl and Tariki--:)

Amazing to log in and see this question today! I was just reading last night about this subject, and thinking along the same lines.

When I think of grace, I often think of the following Scripture--

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

(Proverbs 3:5-6)

Surrender can actually be thought of as a kind of discipline. It is a yielding of one's self to the Source/God/Love--a conscious choice to trust that all may work together without us needing to fret over all the details. Letting go of fear--I might even say something like "learning to relax in the Light".

I could probably say more and maybe say something better, but I thought this might help for now. I'm sure that there will be varied types of responses, and I look forward to reading them as well.

Thanks for the topic--I have been wondering the same, but did not know how to ask.

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Hey earl and Tariki--:)

Amazing to log in and see this question today! I was just reading last night about this subject, and thinking along the same lines.

When I think of grace, I often think of the following Scripture--

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

(Proverbs 3:5-6)

Surrender can actually be thought of as a kind of discipline. It is a yielding of one's self to the Source/God/Love--a conscious choice to trust that all may work together without us needing to fret over all the details. Letting go of fear--I might even say something like "learning to relax in the Light".

I could probably say more and maybe say something better, but I thought this might help for now. I'm sure that there will be varied types of responses, and I look forward to reading them as well.

Thanks for the topic--I have been wondering the same, but did not know how to ask.

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...
That scripture catches my interest-"do not lean on your own understanding." That suggests many things to me on many levels, InLove. It certainly suggests a radical "cloud of unknowing." We cannot really "know"as in define what God is. We cannot really "know" or define what we are. We cannot lean on understanding what all the implications of today's choices will bring us in the future. What's left? Dropping false certainties about much of anything to simply open to each passing moment as much as possible. Perhaps radical openness when seen mentally is dropping away of such certainties. When seen "with the heart" it is agape/compassion limitless toward "all sentient beings." How to obtain and maintain that openness is another way perhaps of asking the same question. I think perhaps gratitude is part of that equation. As in the quote of Meister Eckhart, "if the only prayer you ever said was thank you it would suffice." I am in joy, thank you Lord. I am in pain, thank you Lord. Saying thank you and really meaning it-the attitude of gratitude-reflects such an openness without certainty as to what comes next. Hmmm? much more for all of us to mull over and add to the dialogue here me thinks. Had to rerurn to my post to add that when I reflect on the tone of all your posts, it seems to me you are a blessed woman who no doubt has had a number of "graceful" moments. I know you've had your trying times in recent time-your health difficulties, which hopefully are fully behind you. But you most definitely seem like the kind of person who can find a way to be grateful in even the most trying times and meet your moments with an open, heart-felt manner which in turn is no doubt a blessing of your being you share with those around you. You seem to be a good example of just such a surrender to grace.:) earl
 
Thanks for the kind words, earl and flow. Maybe you have overlooked some of my lesser inspired musings? :) Or maybe it is that when others write from a sincere place, it paves the way for someone like me to learn from example and participate fruitfully.

earl said:
As in the quote of Meister Eckhart, "if the only prayer you ever said was thank you it would suffice." I am in joy, thank you Lord. I am in pain, thank you Lord. Saying thank you and really meaning it-the attitude of gratitude-reflects such an openness without certainty as to what comes next. Hmmm?
Click to expand...

I'd say this comes very close to the target, if not a bull's eye. ;)

InPeace,
InLove
 
As I was typing yesterday's logos post quoting from that book re Celtic Christianity, an even larger flock of my robin buddies showed up. OK, got the message it's time I really get back to my Celtic(Christian) roots. So in that spirit, thought I'd go looking on the net for something related to grace & surrender from the Celtic Christian orientation & found this little something to share:

the Weary Pilgrim: a rhythm of life...insecurity
Have a good one, earl
 
By the way, InLove, think this explains my attraction to the Celtic cross-and the Celtic way, (shows how images may "call us" without understanding it factually first; just did a little internet digging). Guess I will get that Celtic cross doo-dad.:D
Chocolate Deities
what a name for that site-well I'm quite addicted to chocolate so stands to reason.
Take care, earl
 
For me, surrendering means setting my ego aside...

I find it quite an "empowering" experience.

No fear, no hurt, no wants, etc. Peace...

And it's a different kind of feeling where I know and I know that I know at the same time. Or maybe I'm aware of being the "observer" and the "observed" at the same time. (Hard to verbalize)

Like when you see a beautiful scene and you're entraced with awe and after a split second, your conscious mind tells you "you have to remember this" and BAM! it turns into something else that's not entrancing any more.

Like sensing (but not really being conscious of) a light hand on your shoulder all the time.

Do you know what I mean?
 
Hey earl! Thanks for the links. :) The Celtic prayer and poetry is quite lovely, isn't it? When I was doing that reading the other night, I ran across a similar poem. I thought about posting it, but decided not to because I thought the source might not be too well-received on this board. However, I am still mulling it over. I will probably submit it eventually, but I kind of want to see where the discussion goes first. I am hoping to hear from Derek on this subject, as well.

Anyway, thought you'd be interested in knowing that from the first link you posted, I went on a "linking" journey, and wound up on Smulo's site--there is a thread there entitled "Sorry". Have you seen it? If you haven't, I'll post the link or send it. Can't help wondering how a stream of thought like this one might go on various boards here. ;) :D And I can't help wondering why I am so danged cautious these days....:eek: :rolleyes:

Okay, now about the chocolates. :D Lots of interesting stuff there. Would one actually consume the doodads and deities??? Would that seem strange? LOL--I am imagining an insomniac snack attack at earl's house. Earl opens refrigerator door and tries to make a decision....

Why am I thinking about that movie where that lady opens a chocolate shop and travels with her mother's ashes?

Oh yeah--and next time the robins visit, take a close look and see if there are any other birds there. I am thinking of waxwings....

InPeace,
InLove
 
Prober said:
Do you know what I mean?
Click to expand...

Indeed I do, Prober. :) "Empowering" is an interesting term, though. I don't quite think of it this way, but like you said, it is difficult to verbalize. Maybe more like "liberating"? Only there's something more...maybe, as you described, touching and being touched by the Power--and that being something not threatening, but wondrous?

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Hey earl! Thanks for the links. :) The Celtic prayer and poetry is quite lovely, isn't it? When I was doing that reading the other night, I ran across a similar poem. I thought about posting it, but decided not to because I thought the source might not be too well-received on this board. However, I am still mulling it over. I will probably submit it eventually, but I kind of want to see where the discussion goes first. I am hoping to hear from Derek on this subject, as well.

Anyway, thought you'd be interested in knowing that from the first link you posted, I went on a "linking" journey, and wound up on Smulo's site--there is a thread there entitled "Sorry". Have you seen it? If you haven't, I'll post the link or send it. Can't help wondering how a stream of thought like this one might go on various boards here. ;) :D And I can't help wondering why I am so danged cautious these days....:eek: :rolleyes:

Okay, now about the chocolates. :D Lots of interesting stuff there. Would one actually consume the doodads and deities??? Would that seem strange? LOL--I am imagining an insomniac snack attack at earl's house. Earl opens refrigerator door and tries to make a decision....

Why am I thinking about that movie where that lady opens a chocolate shop and travels with her mother's ashes?

Oh yeah--and next time the robins visit, take a close look and see if there are any other birds there. I am thinking of waxwings....

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...
Who's smulo? Aye, am a lover of the Celtic mind set aren't I lassy?;) earl
 
I have been thinking about what you said, Prober, and my response to it. And a certain favorite Scripture passage keeps popping up in my thoughts. When that happens, it usually means that I should go on and post it in the commentary.

Here's the dialogue to which I refer. (I have posted the Scripture at the bottom.)

Prober said:
For me, surrendering means setting my ego aside...

I find it quite an "empowering" experience.

No fear, no hurt, no wants, etc. Peace...

And it's a different kind of feeling where I know and I know that I know at the same time. Or maybe I'm aware of being the "observer" and the "observed" at the same time. (Hard to verbalize)

Like when you see a beautiful scene and you're entraced with awe and after a split second, your conscious mind tells you "you have to remember this" and BAM! it turns into something else that's not entrancing any more.

Like sensing (but not really being conscious of) a light hand on your shoulder all the time.

Do you know what I mean?
Click to expand...

InLove said:
Indeed I do, Prober. :) "Empowering" is an interesting term, though. I don't quite think of it this way, but like you said, it is difficult to verbalize. Maybe more like "liberating"? Only there's something more...maybe, as you described, touching and being touched by the Power--and that being something not threatening, but wondrous?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Here's the passage: (Paul writing to the Church at Philippi about the inner peace and the power that comes from and enables us to surrender to grace?)

Philippians 4:10-13 said:
The Lord gives me a reason to be full of joy. It is because you are able to care for me again. I know you wanted to before but you did not have a way to help me. I am not saying I need anything. I have learned to be happy with whatever I have. I know how to get along with little and how to live when I have much. I have learned the secret of being happy at all times. If I am full of food and have all I need, I am happy. If I am hungry and need more, I am happy. I can do all things because Christ gives me the strength.
Click to expand...
This sounds to me like the emptying or surrendering or entrusting of one's self to the will, guidance, wisdom, and grace of the Source of our Being/The Light/God (and I think there are many other ways in which we may respectfully and lovingly attempt to speak His name--but that's another discussion currently being addressed in depth around the forums :)).

Anyway, I wondered if this was kinda-sorta what you were trying to describe when you used the term "empowering"?

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
This sounds to me like the emptying or surrendering or entrusting of one's self to the will, guidance, wisdom, and grace of the Source of our Being/The Light/God (and I think there are many other ways in which we may respectfully and lovingly attempt to speak His name--but that's another discussion currently being addressed in depth around the forums :)).

Anyway, I wondered if this was kinda-sorta what you were trying to describe when you used the term "empowering"?

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly! Especially verse 13. This, to me, is not just a beautiful platitude, IT IS REAL!

Thanks, InLove, for sharing.:)
 
I was floating around trying to find a thread that asked for our views on the Atonement. I had seen a poll earlier and wanted to offer my ten cents -as the saying goes! Seem to have lost it! Anyway, saw this for the first time.

I do feel that "grace" is at the heart of all things. (my ten cents on the Atonement was to revolve around the words of Jesus to the Pharisees..."Go and learn what this means. I will have mercy and not sacrifice")

From my own experience I would just say that any attempt to "surrender to grace" involves me in a never ending chain of "justifications", virtually the polar opposite of any true surrender. I think this is why I love the writings of Shinran, who saw deeply into the Pure Land path. There is an existential reality to his thought, a deep refusal to see anything but truth within his own situation.

There is a frontpiece to his "Collected Works" that shows a picture of one page of the Amida Sutra, the words of the sutra covered over with Shinran's own writing. I often look at this and find it deeply moving...............just the thought of another human being pouring over the scriptures, striving to work out within their own lives - as actually lived and experienced - the "answers" being given/offered. And often I then think of the words from the NT....."They search the scriptures daily for in them they think they have life" and of course, there is no actual "life" in words/texts/scriptures, but only in what they point towards and signify.

Before Shinran, in the Pure Land path, one had to say the nembutsu ( Namu-Amida-Butsu..................i.e. my foolish self is embraced by infinite compassion, grasped never to be abandoned) with - according to the original Vow - a sincere mind, a trusting mind, and with true aspiration, in order to be "saved". These "three minds" were demanded by the wording of the vow. I think, looking at the scroll with Shinran's writing on it, he of all people could have told himself that he in fact had those "minds". Yet in his writings he witnessed instead to his total incapacity to truly "surrender" with true sincerity, trust and aspiration................he speaks of "sinking in an immense ocean of desires and attachments". It was this - the profound realization of his own "karmic" evil - that made him teach that the "three minds" were not in fact the practicer's "sincerity", but rather the true and real mind of Amida "given" to them in pure grace. In was in this that he found ultimate peace.

I think at this point we get into "non-dualism" and I have nothing further to say. I just stumble on, saying the nembutsu.

Faith does not arise
Within oneself.
The Entrusting Heart is itself
Given by the Other Power (Rennyo, a later follower of Shinran)

P.S. I have just realised that I am in fact on the Christianity Forum. My apologies if I have written anything out of "order". No doubt the moderators will move this or delete it if deemed inappropriate.
 
Tariki--

In case you are still interested, that thread is:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/the-theories-of-the-atonement-6552.html

(I have not finished reading all of the choices. Theology fascinates me, but set formulas are not my strongsuit.) :)

(Edited to add: I'm not a mod, but I think your comments directly and thoughtfully address the conversation and the OP. You were, after all, personally invited more than once.)

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Tariki--

In case you are still interested, that thread is:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/the-theories-of-the-atonement-6552.html

(I have not finished reading all of the choices. Theology fascinates me, but set formulas are not my strongsuit.) :)

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...

Thanks! yes, I've found it now - for better or for worse!! Formulas? Yes, I think there is a Merton quote on the Thomas Merton thread concerning formulas which I tend to agree with.....................

:)
 
Must say, Tariki, that it is through your sharing that I've increased in interest in PureLand thinking. I do see so much in their views of grace et al that could easily apply to Christians as well. I found this very good overview of PureLand which captures well notions of faith, surrender, and grace that I thought I'd share for those who wish to understand either PureLand or view Christianity through a very compatible lens which examines issues of interest to Christians-i.e. faith, grace, & (yes) surrender-though can relate to how difficult this so-called "easy path" might be due to difficulty in truly achieving that. Example though of the PureLand attitude from the link below was this quote:

"The only and fundamental cause for 'Birth in the Pureland' is thus neither moral nor ritual practices nor meditative experiences but the one moment of total and sincere, deep and joyous surrender to Amida Buddha's salvific activity."

That 1 moment of total, sincere surrender is the trick I alluded to regarding opening to grace with which I began this thread. Anyway, here's that link:

Home
Oh, heck, 1 more great quote that I & many can relate to which relates back to what you were saying about the seeming futility and the act of surrender. This from a nice personally and personably written article on PureLand practice that was in Tricycle mag last fall-by Clark Strand:

"I came into this world knowing nothing and will surely depart in the same way. Amida's life is infinite, mine is not. On the vast sweep of cosmic time, my life places an open and closed parentheses, like a footnote or a minor digression to some longer argument that I know nothing about. Within those parentheses, many things happen, but the truth is I don't understand any of them. I don't know why they happen in the sense of knowing their ultimate cause, nor do I know what their ultimate outcome will be-if such a concept is even applicable. If what seemed a good thing in the morning can have turned out to be a colossal mistake by the end of the day...how much more so in a lifetime...For too long I used Buddhism to convince myself that I understood something I did not but now I know the truth. I do not know anything at all. But then, that is precisely the kind of being that Amida Buddha saves-the one who has no choice but to surrender to a power beyond his own."

Amida or Christ, many can relate to these sentiments.
have a good one, earl
 
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