Why do Cults deny Jesus' deity?

[Silas]

How come the first place the cults attack and get wrong is Jesus' deity? How is it they miss the obvious theophanies in the Bible? For instance: What about all the times in the Old Testament where we read "The angel of the LORD" did so and so or said so and so, and the people worshiped and offered sacrifice to this "angel?" No where in the Bible do we read angels recieve worship. In fact, when men tried to do that, the angels rebunked them and told them to stop. So, who was this "angel of the LORD?" I think its easy to find out - it was the preincarte Christ. In the book of Exodus we read that "the angel of the LORD" appeared to Moses in a burning bush and said that His name is "I am." In the book of John, chapt. 8...Jesus said that he was this same "angel of the LORD" speaking to Moses, for He said in v 58..."before Abraham was 'I am.'" How come cults get this so wrong?

Mee, I'd like to hear your take on this issue. Please go light on the copy and pasting, please!

 

[mee]

How come the first place the cults attack and get wrong is Jesus' deity? How is it they miss the obvious theophanies in the Bible? For instance: What about all the times in the Old Testament where we read "The angel of the LORD" did so and so or said so and so, and the people worshiped and offered sacrifice to this "angel?" No where in the Bible do we read angels recieve worship. In fact, when men tried to do that, the angels rebunked them and told them to stop. So, who was this "angel of the LORD?" I think its easy to find out - it was the preincarte Christ. In the book of Exodus we read that "the angel of the LORD" appeared to Moses in a burning bush and said that His name is "I am." In the book of John, chapt. 8...Jesus said that he was this same "angel of the LORD" speaking to Moses, for He said in v 58..."before Abraham was 'I am.'" How come cults get this so wrong?

Mee, I'd like to hear your take on this issue. Please go light on the copy and pasting, please!

Joh

8:58—"before Abraham came into existence, I have been"​

​

Gr., πριν᾿Αβρααµ γενέσθαιεγω ειµί​

(prin A·bra·am´ ge·ne´sthai e·go´ ei·mi´)
attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some try to use Ex 3:14 (LXX) which reads: ᾿Εγώ ειµι οων (E·go´ ei·mi ho on), which means "I am The Being," or, "I am The Existing One." This attempt cannot be sustained because the expression in Ex 3:14 is different from the expression in Joh 8:58

​

 

[Silas]

Joh

8:58—"before Abraham came into existence, I have been"​

Gr., πριν᾿Αβρααµ γενέσθαιεγω ειµί​

(prin A·bra·am´ ge·ne´sthai e·go´ ei·mi´)
attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some try to use Ex 3:14 (LXX) which reads: ᾿Εγώ ειµι οων (E·go´ ei·mi ho on), which means "I am The Being," or, "I am The Existing One." This attempt cannot be sustained because the expression in Ex 3:14 is different from the expression in Joh 8:58

​

I'm glad you answered this thread, Mee. This is for God to get glory <admin edit, proselytizing -jt3> One question: Who is "the Angel of the LORD?" in the Old Testament?

 

[lunamoth]

Before continuing this thread everyone should read the COC found here, and especially this:

We have nothing against people sharing their faith with other members, but CR does not tolerate the presence of members whose sole purpose is to preach at others of different or the same faith.

Neither does CR tolerate the presence of self-appointed modern-day prophets, nor anyone else aggressively seeking to promote their own agendas here.


lunamoth
moderator, Belief and Spirituality

 

[Dor]

So if my sole purpose is to glorify God that is wrong because It might offend someone that has a heretical belief??

 

[cyberpi]

How come the first place the cults attack and get wrong is Jesus' deity?

Until you walk a month in a foreign land with foreign customs, a foreign language, and study their foreign religion, then look back on who you are, you are ignorant of the scope of the word cult.

If words attack then it is by a thrown book or a sliding paper cut. Beyond that, the cry that words attack and hurt is the angry unforgiveness in the mind when a person is frustrated that others are different or see things differently. Words reveal and provide only opportunity.

The word Jesus is revealed in the Gospels. The word deity is not. In your words, what is deity? Are all people not more than flesh?

This is for God to get glory and you to see that you are in err and hopefully come out of the JW religion.

John 8:54-55 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, who you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.

 

[Silas]

Until you walk a month in a foreign land with foreign customs, a foreign language, and study their foreign religion, then look back on who you are, you are ignorant of the scope of the word cult.

If words attack then it is by a thrown book or a sliding paper cut. Beyond that, the cry that words attack and hurt is the angry unforgiveness in the mind when a person is frustrated that others are different or see things differently. Words reveal and provide only opportunity.

The word Jesus is revealed in the Gospels. The word deity is not. In your words, what is deity? Are all people not more than flesh?


John 8:54-55 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, who you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.

It is hard for a non-Christian to hear somethings. Certain words make them frustrated and angry. It is easy for me to say that Jesus is God and that he is the only way to the Father and Heaven. I admit, it sounds exclussive and intolerant because its so cliquish and secterian. Yet, it is still the truth! <admin edit, proselytizing -jt3> So all that said, let me say this: I believe the Bible. I do not adhere to other ways other than what the Bible has said. Is that myopic? Sure! Still, however, by very defination truth is absoulte. And, when it is found, we no longer need to seek. So what I said to Mee stands. Let him now speak for himself.

 

[lunamoth]

So if my sole purpose is to glorify God that is wrong because It might offend someone that has a heretical belief??

Nope. I'm all for giving the glory to God.

But if your sole purpose (and Dor I don't believe it is, this is not directed at you) is to convert mee and preach at everyone, then that is against the COC.

 

[cyberpi]

Silas,
Do you have an explanation for the verse that I have provided?

In your words, what is deity? If a person or alleged cult were to deny Jesus' deity, I should think it important to know what deity means. Correct?

 

[Silas]

Silas,
Do you have an explanation for the verse that I have provided?

In your words, what is deity? Are all people not more than flesh? If a person or alleged cult were to deny Jesus' deity, I should think it important to know what deity means. Correct?

1. Whats the verse you're talking about and why do you bring it up?

2. People are made up of mind, body (flesh), and spirit. I would say we are more than, but God says that we "are dust" (Psa 103:14)

3. Deity in regards to Jesus means divine character and that He is the uncreated creator God.

 

[cyberpi]

1. Whats the verse you're talking about and why do you bring it up?

(John 8:54-55) You say your purpose is to give God glory. Did God glorify Jesus? Does God glorify God? Does Jesus glorify Jesus?

Another to consider in light of John 8:54:
John 17:22 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

2. People are made up of mind, body (flesh), and spirit. I would say we are more than, but God says that we "are dust" (Psa 103:14)

I suggest that people are a soul, in spirit (unseen), and clothed in flesh. The body and the mind are mere tools.

3. Deity in regards to Jesus means divine character and that He is the uncreated creator God.

So what is divine character? What attributes is there to deny in your definition of 'deity' and 'divine character'? How would you pick Jesus out of a crowd and identify his deity or divine character?

 

[Silas]

(John 8:54-55) You say your purpose is to give God glory. Did God glorify Jesus? Does God glorify God? Does Jesus glorify Jesus?

Another to consider in light of John 8:54:
John 17:22 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I suggest that people are a soul, in spirit (unseen), and clothed in flesh. The body and the mind are mere tools.


So what is divine character? What attributes is there to deny in your definition of 'deity' and 'divine character'? How would you pick Jesus out of a crowd and identify his deity or divine character?

1. Its so hard when you dont read the Bible in context to explain some things. So hard. One of Jesus' reasons for coming was to be an example of his brothers and those who he came to save. He lived a life of submission to God's will. We are supposed to follow that lead, for everything we do, we ought to bring glory to God. A life aside from that is vain and a waste. Note the book of Hebrews for a better understanding of what I'm saying. All that aside, Jesus said that if you dont honor him, you do not honor the Father. Therefore, you ought to do what everyone else in the Bible did, from demon to angel to human and God: Give the Son glory. Again, read Hebrews for this. Hebrews 1 starts off with the latter part of what I'm talking about.

2. Jesus is God. The attrubtes he had on earth were the same as God the Father.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Silas is the only one I see being true to what he believes in.. the bible and the blood of Christ..everyone else hedges around it so as to not offend anyone.. guess what guys... God is offended!

This happened with Bandit too.. a moderator takes offense to the persons view and suddenly its a power trip and a hard core attempt to chase someone off.

I happen to like what Silas brings to the board.. I get nauseated when all I read is heretical cultic unbiblical liberal apostate anti-christ garbage that denies Christ.. denies the blood of Christ.. denies the word of God.. denies the Holy Spirit.. denies every FUNDEMENTAL belief that I have. You cant chase me away because I am more tactful in how I word my beliefs.

I miss Bandit!!!!

 

[lunamoth]

Silas is the only one I see being true to what he believes in.. the bible and the blood of Christ..everyone else hedges around it so as to not offend anyone.. guess what guys... God is offended!

This happened with Bandit too.. a moderator takes offense to the persons view and suddenly its a power trip and a hard core attempt to chase someone off.

I happen to like what Silas brings to the board.. I get nauseated when all I read is heretical cultic unbiblical liberal apostate anti-christ garbage that denies Christ.. denies the blood of Christ.. denies the word of God.. denies the Holy Spirit.. denies every FUNDEMENTAL belief that I have. You cant chase me away because I am more tactful in how I word my beliefs.

I miss Bandit!!!!

I miss Bandit too.

I did not take offense at Silas or any of the posts above. I am however pointing out the COC which has been in place since day one, although on this board in particular it is often ignored.

No one is trying to chase anyone away.

 

[Faithfulservant]

To top it off...mee spends ALL his time here trying to convert to the point of being warned by brian himself.. so that was bogus to say that all silas does is seek to convert mee and preach at us all..

 

[lunamoth]

To top it off...mee spends ALL his time here trying to convert to the point of being warned by brian himself.. so that was bogus to say that all silas does is seek to convert mee and preach at us all..

I saw specifically in this thread a post directed at one person directly telling them to convert...which is a no no.

Yes, others have done similar things and rec'd warnings. Let me note that this was not even a warning...just a reminder about the COC. The COC is to keep this place welcoming for all.

When a particular religon is attacked or targeted for proselytizing/preaching, that is against the COC.

When a member here is attacked or targeted for the same, that is against the COC.

If you see it happening and it's missed by the mods...please use the report button to notify the mods.

If you think I'm out of line here please report it to Brian.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I feel attacked all the time, luna..right here on this forum and no Im not going to report it because Jesus told me it would happen..the world would hate me because the world hates Him... I actually receive it as a blessing. But I am going to stand up for my brother when I believe he is wronged because its the right thing to do.

 

[lunamoth]

I feel attacked all the time, luna..right here on this forum and no Im not going to report it because Jesus told me it would happen..the world would hate me because the world hates Him... I actually receive it as a blessing. But I am going to stand up for my brother when I believe he is wronged because its the right thing to do.

I am sincerely sorry you feel this way Faithful. Again I would encourage you to use the report button if you feel you have been attacked because that is not in the spirit of this forum at all.

Is there anything I can do or say to help?

Added: posting a COC reminder is not an attack. It is simply that...a reminder.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

So if my sole purpose is to glorify God that is wrong because It might offend someone that has a heretical belief??

I know you know better than that...the sole purpose is not to glorify G-d. The sole purpose is in direct violation of the Code of Conduct of not proselytizing or attempting to convert others, bad mouthing or belittling them. Of which Silas is repeatedly guilty on all counts.

 

[cyberpi]

1. Its so hard when you dont read the Bible in context to explain some things. So hard. One of Jesus' reasons for coming was to be an example of his brothers and those who he came to save. He lived a life of submission to God's will. We are supposed to follow that lead, for everything we do, we ought to bring glory to God. A life aside from that is vain and a waste. Note the book of Hebrews for a better understanding of what I'm saying. All that aside, Jesus said that if you dont honor him, you do not honor the Father. Therefore, you ought to do what everyone else in the Bible did, from demon to angel to human and God: Give the Son glory. Again, read Hebrews for this. Hebrews 1 starts off with the latter part of what I'm talking about.

One of the 10 commandments is to honour thy father and mother, so honoring thy father and mother is also honoring God. Yet on my parents death I am not going to call them God too.

I can honor and glorify friends, my wife, children, father, mother, Jesus, and God. They do not necessarily need to be exclusive. While you Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul... it is not necessarily exclusive of Loving others.

2. Jesus is God. The attrubtes he had on earth were the same as God the Father.

The attributes? If a disciple of Jesus has the attributes of Jesus, should he too be called Jesus? In context Jesus said that he spoke not of himself, yet you continue to claim that he did.