Dear Sirs

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by InLove, Feb 25, 2007.

  1. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    This makes me curious cyberpi, upon what basis you rebuke the path described by the poem. If you have an authority which is the yardstick you are using to make this judgement, it seems important for you to explain what that is. If your yardstick is your own personal understanding of the Bible, or if it is the Quran, or the Kitab-i-Aqdas, or if it is Watchtower, or Catholic Tradition, or whatever it is that you use for your discernment, I'd say the person being judged (and we readers whom you are trying to convince) should know this. If it is your personal interpretation of Christianity or God, what makes it any more reliable than someone else's personal interpretation?
     
  2. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    Hey InLove. I just found this thread while searching, this section of the forums being one that I don't frequent. I liked your poem, but I think this follow-up thought by you is the most poetic:

    Awesome.
     
  3. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    I think I owe it to explain why I had 'rebuked' this thread. I used the strong word only to try to match the words in the letter. I have been looking for ways to encourage people to hear and judge themselves, and to hear and judge others more freely per the Gospel. That requires having open ears, a loose but honest tongue, and ample forgiveness. Maybe people here disagree with that, but I believe that flames, or judgemental words between people are just as important as words of encouragement. I think there is something for someone to learn about themselves in any interaction, including a flame. I find that people do learn about others or about themselves... because I have. So if I say anything offending, then please rebuke me but then forgive it. I think I tend to see things differently than most, so to try and share objetively what I saw, let me imagine that it is an important person in one of my relationships and to rewrite it with my words:

    Dear sirs, no more words have you for me
    Save a last condemnation spoken with a withered, frosty finger
    And a heart even colder?

    He placed me in darkness.
    I judge that he judges me, and his last words were mean.
    I judge that he is mean and lifeless.

    As well you lock your heavy doors
    Through which you say no transgression may pass,
    Thereby closing up the altar to which I would most readily run
    To set them down.
    And so you would have Heaven shut.

    I judge that he is not listening and is unforgiving.
    I judge that he is preventing me from forgiving him, or for repenting and seeking his forgiveness.
    I judge he is keeping me from heaven.

    You stain the windows with stories you have chosen,
    And it is you alone who may explain them.
    It cannot be left to one such as I,
    For certainly I will twist them up with confused logic
    And inappropriate sentiment.
    Surely I will make circles out of lines
    And angels of demons,
    For I am not to be trusted with secret and sacred knowledge—
    All my fruits appear bruised and spoiled.

    I judge that it is his fault he tells stories that I don't understand.
    … as if I can't be confided in.
    … as if I can't be logical enough.
    … as if I can't read feelings.
    … as if I would warp his words.
    … as if I will not hear his rebuke.
    For I can't be confided in to keep his secret or sacred knowledge,
    I judge that he thinks my ears produce spoiled fruit.

    And so you leave me to my kind—
    Pray tell, Sirs, but who?
    Who will embrace me now, since I carry your name?
    I cannot bear to lose it,
    But what is my choice
    If I have been blotted out of your book?

    But it is he that judged me and dumped me.
    Who will take me now that I have labelled by him?
    I did not ask for this,
    So is it my fault since he shut me out first?

    Perhaps there are still a few who will have me now,
    And our wayward paths will meet and we will walk together;
    I pray we find ourselves at a well-constructed gate--
    I remember it as ancient wood, but it may be of stone;
    And in passing through it, may we find our burdens welcome
    And our names carved upon it.

    Perhaps there are still some who will LOVE by my standard.
    I still hope he will make it to the gate in heaven with me,
    Where I hope we see how our burdens get accepted.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Does that look different? I used my words and emphasized, but that is what I read. What did I think was backwards? To me any relationship requires: Love, Faith, and Truth (honest communication). I submit that for me to have or be Love, to be forgiving, it is always my choice and it is unconditional. It is not him who prevents me from going to heaven, but I who may fall short. To be a faithful servant, I must have ears open and be asking for his words to serve him. Whereas in the letter I did not even ask what he wants. To place faith in him, I need to honestly express what it is that I wish him to do. So, for example if I wanted him to speak to me in a certain way then I need to express to him what that is... to request it. The heavy door in a relationship is really the ear... not the tongue. It is to his door this letter knocks on. If the ear were gone then the tongue is a loose cannon. I personally think it is good to judge and to provide that judgement... to communicate; however, in this letter I am already rebuking his tongue for not speaking to me on my terms. I do not disclose what that is or why I felt that I have been so far dealt mean words. I am mostly expressing that my ear is unhappy and that I have restrictions, which I can not forgive. That does not exactly aid the relationship. The letter reads to me like it is an incremental round of a flame... and not a love letter. However, communication is important, and on the reception side I would certainly value it over nothing.

    I hope that provides some better insight.
     
  4. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hi cyberpi :). Yes, it does. You know what? I pretty much knew that, I think. I read your posts often, and they frequently, if not always, have a depth to them that amazes me.

    I most certainly do understand what you are saying here, and I agree with you. And I am sure you understand that in no way was I addressing you personally. But I have to say "no, thank you" to the doctrine of exclusiveness. The poem is not meant to shut the door from the side I am on, which in this case, is outside of salvation in the eyes of those inside. However, I do see how it could be read as if the writer has shut the door--and I knew it when I posted it. And that is what made me so sad about it.

    What needed to be said, I think, (and what was said), was not for the writer. But the writer understands how devastating it can be when one becomes convinced that the grace of salvation is not for everyone. The words were written for them--not to flame the addressees, but to express hope for those who have none.

    You know, you have me wondering if there will be a time when something else comes to me to write--something along the lines of what you said, or maybe something added to the poem. I can't just add it from intellect--I wouldn't. But maybe I will be led in the Spirit of Love, Wisdom, Forgiveness...and if I am, I know I will remember your words in the process. I know they will be there.

    In the meantime, you have put them here on this thread, and I thank you. :)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  5. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    (bumping thread because last post is not showing up in New Posts)
     
  6. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    InLove,
    Thank you, and thank you for sharing the letter... I certainly learned from it.

    On the doctrine of exclusiveness... is that from a different thread? If you mean God and heaven, then I certainly agree that it is worthwhile assuming that it is available to all. I think God does have some requirements, but I am also certain that no man can come between a person and God. I know it seems that way when people like myself try to point to a way they think works for them. It seems to me like just one of those things that has to be privately sought after. If you meant exclusiveness in terms of a marriage or any other relationship between people on Earth, then I am without comment... maybe a different thread.

    I can also see and maybe we would agree in rejecting the concept of 'salvation by knowledge' or 'salvation by intelligence'... which I'm adding to your comment on 'grace'. I find that like any other body part, that the mind and whatever intelligence a person is dealt can be used for good or for bad. I submit that it is not a matter of having intelligence, but in the way that it is used. I probably speak there comfortably as an engineer who went to work with one.

    All actions and words come from the mind, so I don't want to belittle it, but I can see the frustration in viewing life as an intellectual exercise... especially on a forum. I will flat out say that I learned there are some answers that can not be seen by any amount of intelligence or any volume of information read. I agree that there are tangible differences that result from loving others, from repenting known sins, from forgiving others, and from placing faith in each other... to name a few, and I do see them as something available to anyone.
     
  7. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Okay--something strange with this thread! I see you have posted, cyberpi, but now yours isn't showing up, just like mine didn't. So I am posting this to see if it will "bump" again. Wonder what's up?

    I won't have time to respond in full for a few hours, probably, but thanks for the reply. In the meantime, let's see if the bump works.

    InPeace,
    InLove

    Edited by InLove to add: Yay! It worked. I'll post a proper response as soon as I can. Maybe the thread will be working better by then. :)
     
  8. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hi cyberpi--sorry for the delay. I have been visiting family, so haven't had much time to post.

    Thank you, too--you added the missing dimension to the meaning of the words. You completed the thoughts. LOL--Am I Charlotte and you Templeton? Or is it the other way around? Or maybe neither and something else entirely? :)

    My reference to the "doctrine of exclusiveness" doesn't come from any one particular thread. I think I may have seen the term used here and there, but really I was just trying to describe any view that seeks to exclude anyone from the grace of God. In short, I don't believe it is up to me to tell anyone that they may be designed for eternal doom. I think this kills hope and opposes Life.

    I concur most wholeheartedly.

    So you're an engineer? I thought you might be something along those lines. Cool. It makes me giddy just to think that you and I can successfully communicate, 'cause some of that stuff y'all do is way up over my hat sometimes! But I sure do appreciate the fact that you can do it. :)

    I can't help but think that in each person's mind, there is actually a formula or a logical explanation. I mean, it makes so much sense inside our own minds. The only problem is, when we speak it for someone else, it isn't true for them. In saying this, I don't mean that there is no Absolute Truth. It is just that each and every one of us must relate to the Absolute in the way we are given. Oh...I am really terrible at this sort of speaking--I wonder if it is making any sense to an engineer? :)

    Anyway, thanks again, cyberpi--don't be surprised if you find bits of your wisdom in some verse or poem or song somewhere along my own path.

    And also, thank you pathless and luna and Star and everyone who posted thoughts here recently. I hope you don't feel I was ignoring them. I just had to find out what cyberpi was saying, because it was something I needed to dwell on to better understand what I had written down. Hope that makes sense! It all works together....

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  9. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    Hey InLove,

    Been off the boards myself so my ignorance is bliss;) :D

    Speak soon,

    s.
     
  10. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hey Snoop :)

    Go on vacation from CR? Now? Why on earth would anyone want to do that??? ;)

    Yes, we make much good talk soon. For now, I leave you with this:













    Ahhhh.....:)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  11. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    Of some delights, I believe, a little goes a long way.

    s.

     

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