free will...

S

shadowman

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If free will allows for sin, and sin allows for death, then anywhere that there's no death there is no free will. In heaven, there's no death - therefore there's no free will in heaven. In heaven, there's no sin, so in heaven there's no free will.
 
The usual response to that is that the people who end up in heaven are the people who would freely choose to never sin.

So the question is, if Heaven can be populated with people who freely choose never to sin, why can't Earth? Is it a necessary testing ground to weed out the non-sinners from the sinners? But apart from Jesus, ALL humans have a propensity to sin, even those who have accepted Christ, and such a propensity, if it exists on Earth, must also exist in Heaven else free will is null and void.

So yeah, the only answer is that there is no free will in heaven. There COULDN'T be, else people would start to strangle one another after the ten trillionth rendition of "How Great Thou Art."
 
noone can choose NOT sin.. its in the very DNA of our fleshly bodies.. its in our hearts and our every intent known and unknown.

The good news is that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. Thats for everyone..

We are saved by grace NOT our works. We will never be GOOD enough to earn salvation.. He gives it freely to those that believe on Him.

That is faith. Believing without seeing.. believing without proof.. The object of that faith is Jesus Christ.
 
if we have free will, and some of us choose god and others dont, whats the difference?

did god make us in different ways so some would choose one way and others would choose another?
 
shadowman said:
If free will allows for sin, and sin allows for death, then anywhere that there's no death there is no free will. In heaven, there's no death - therefore there's no free will in heaven. In heaven, there's no sin, so in heaven there's no free will.
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I think not. I testify that I am born of God, have free will as you and do not sin. (present tense) 1 John 3:9

Also it seems to me, there must be free will in heaven as Lucifer is reported to have fallen from there by his own free will. Just something for you to chew on.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
I have to go with Joseph on this one. I don't see after going through all of history of man having freewill that everything just stops. Freewill implies a free will to love, or else we could not love freely. Grace is the key....
 
shadowman said:
If free will allows for sin, and sin allows for death, then anywhere that there's no death there is no free will. In heaven, there's no death - therefore there's no free will in heaven. In heaven, there's no sin, so in heaven there's no free will.
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You're ignoring something else--flesh. Death is primary associated with associated with flesh. All flesh dies.
Let's rewrite your original premise, substituting "flesh" for "free-will:"

If flesh allows for sin, and sin allows for death, then anywhere that there's no death there is no flesh. In heaven there's no death - therefore there's no flesh in heaven. In heaven, there's no sin, so in heaven there's no flesh.​
 
seattlegal said:
You're ignoring something else--flesh. Death is primary associated with associated with flesh. All flesh dies.
Let's rewrite your original premise, substituting "flesh" for "free-will:"

If flesh allows for sin, and sin allows for death, then anywhere that there's no death there is no flesh. In heaven there's no death - therefore there's no flesh in heaven. In heaven, there's no sin, so in heaven there's no flesh.​
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But when you mean "flesh", you are talking of corrupted flesh, that is the flesh and blood bodies which we are born with and which we will die with. But the bodies that we inherit in the kingdom of God will be incorruptable bodies, not made of the same death and disease prone substance as we have now, but transformed into a "spiritual body", similar to what Christ had in His Resurrection.

I still don't know how that will keep us from free will, other than we won't be prone to the same temptations we have now. Whadda think?
 
Wherever there is love, there must be free-will.

When we missuse our free-will then we have to live here and suffer old-age, disease and death.

When we want to use our free-will to love God and his servants, then we can live happily in heaven. :)

Our current bodies are all doomed to decay or be eaten by worms. I don't see how we could wear them in heaven?

... Neemai
 
Dondi said:
But when you mean "flesh", you are talking of corrupted flesh, that is the flesh and blood bodies which we are born with and which we will die with. But the bodies that we inherit in the kingdom of God will be incorruptable bodies, not made of the same death and disease prone substance as we have now, but transformed into a "spiritual body", similar to what Christ had in His Resurrection.

I still don't know how that will keep us from free will, other than we won't be prone to the same temptations we have now. Whadda think?
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Actually, the flesh interferes with our free-will:
Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.​
I would say that we would not be subjected to such temptations of the flesh that we have now, but please also remember the 'angels who lusted after fleshly women' in Genesis 6. It appears they couldn't even handle being around flesh, much less be flesh. We have a difficult time overcoming the lusts of the flesh, so one might expect that those who can overcome the flesh would be better equipped to control themselves outside of the flesh.

Notice how self-control and free-will are intimately connected in this regard?

Those who cannot control themselves sin, and therefore must have their free-will limited. {We put limit the free-will of criminals who cannot control themselves by putting them in jail. Please notice that in the book of Jude verse 6, those angels who couldn't control themselves and sinned in Genesis 6 {who left their proper abode} were also put in prison {reserved in everlasting chains under darkness.}
 
seattlegal said:
Those who cannot control themselves sin, and therefore must have their free-will limited. {We put limit the free-will of criminals who cannot control themselves by putting them in jail. Please notice that in the book of Jude verse 6, those angels who couldn't control themselves and sinned in Genesis 6 {who left their proper abode} were also put in prison {reserved in everlasting chains under darkness.}
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I would agree that our free-will is constricted in this world, although not removed entirely.

What if this world is the prison?

... Neemai :)
 
Neemai said:
I would agree that our free-will is constricted in this world, although not removed entirely.

What if this world is the prison?

... Neemai :)
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Maybe the notion of a prison is relative. The free world is where your heart is -- where you want to be; the prison is the place where you reside, but a place you hate. It's a prison if you lose your spontaneity and identity. It's a prison if you want to be somewhere else, a place where you can be more spontaneous and realise your full potential as a person.

Some of us discover that we don't belong here. This world limits our potential and spontaneity. So we seek a better world where we can better achieve our dreams!!! Discover our true identity.:)
 
Dondi said:
But somehow, they will take on the same form, wouldn't they. I mean, look at Jesus. He still had nailprints in His hands and feet.
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Same shape yes.

Same matter? Not sure. Maybe the nature of the "soul" attached to the physical body has an effect on how the physical body functions.

Maybe it's the soul, not the physical body that changes. The "flesh" refers to the soul, particularly an earth-bound soul as opposed to a heaven-bound soul. Jesus' body after resurrection was indestructible and was also able to cross into the heavenly realms as well as back.
 
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