the holy spirit

[Zaakir]

after reading sections of the new testament, one cannot fail to see things that are confusing...
many people say that the verse below

john15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me

relates to the holyspirit, mainly due to the verse below

john14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

however, is this really true? we gather from this, that when jesus will ascend to the heavens he will as God almighty to send down a comforter, who we are led to believe is the holy spirit or holy ghost. however jesus said

john16:7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

so using this verse we see that it cannot be the holy spirit, as jesus clearly says while i am here he will not come, and as we know the holy spirit had already come, the are just 2 examples below but many more

luke 1:15 For he (john the baptist) shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

luke 3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened; 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove upon him

who was jesus really talking about he can and cant at the same time been talking about the holy spirit, as there are proofs against this, could he have been talking about a prophet?

1 john 4:1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

reading this verse either we have two conflicting conversations going on or a piece of very irrelevant info to whats being told, alternatively, the word spirit and prophet could be being used with the same meaning, this would make more sense, so if then the holy spirit means holy prophet andwe look at the verses above, we see that jesus foretold of a prophet coming, who couldnt be there when jesus was.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Dear Zaakir,
Yes, I have posted a bit on this before:

We know that Mani was inspired by the Angel, Twin or Syzygos, as it is in Greek. Catholic commentators declared that Mani thought he was the Holy Spirit, but this is incorrect:

It seems certain that Mani himself came to understand his Twin to be the Paraclete, foretold by Jesus, the ‘comforter’ and ‘Spirit of Truth’ who would be sent afterwards according to the divine will. Since Mani asserts that with the Paraclete, ‘I have become a single body, with a single Spirit! (Keph. 15: 23–24)’, he himself came to be proclaimed as the Paraclete. This then became one of the most characteristic assertions of the Manichaeans, and one of the most offensive to their catholic opponents; however, it was not intended to mean that Mani was the Holy Spirit, as that equation is part of catholic not Manichaean tradition.

So the Paraclete is not a man but an Angel.

You'll observe that the Holy Spirit is associated with fire in the New Testament.

There are two aspects of the Holy Spirit:

In the Gospels we are given both a Holy Spirit of the Father, who by divine action moves as the very breath of life bringing anima, firing motiva, impelling and compelling existence with a fiery ferocity; as contrasted to the Holy Spirit Angelus, who by personal attendance may offer guidance, inspiration and comfort on behalf of our Christ.

The "Comforter" is the Holy Spirit Angelus.


The Holy Spirit is not personified:

That Holy Spirit (Maximus Move-us) would be intolerable if personified, deified, or represented as is to a man. Life cannot face life in double - it would discount itself, or ruin the lesser. For a man to realise the presence of the Holy Spirit Insignia he would break apart and turn inside out confronting the mighty wealth of powers that Father God's Life presents.

Greetings,
Br.Bruce
Last two quotes from my Teachers.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

after reading sections of the new testament, one cannot fail to see things that are confusing...

its not confusing at all. while prophets and disciples have been moved by the holy spirit, yes he has always had a presence. however, what this passage is speaking about when christ says he will send the spirit is a prophecy that he will send the spirit after he has been glorified back to heaven, so when the disciples are given power by the holy spirit, they will be able to do the work that jesus called them to do, which is set up the churches and speak to many people in there languages, being given truth from god to speak, and to have the power to cure illnesses so people will know that god is with them and so what they speak is from god--and that is the gospel that jesus is the son of god and salvation.

 

[Dondi]

"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." - 2 Corinthians 1:22

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," - Ephesians 1:13

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." - Ephesians 4:30

The difference between the Holy Spirit being present in the prophets of the OT and the Holy Spirit coming as promised by Jesus after His Resurrection is that the Holy Spirit did not permanently dwell in the believer prior to Jesus sending the Comforter, rather the Spirit manifested Himself peroidically as needed. And so the Spirit of God came and went as He desired. In Jesus' case, the Spirit came down upon Him at His Baptism in demonstration of power as He began His ministry. It is the Holy Spirit that gave Jesus the power to perform the miracles that he did. Jesus' discussion with Nicodemous in John 3 was about being "born again of the Spirit of God", that is the infusion, if you will of God's Spirit with ours. After the Resurrection, on the day of Pentacost, the Holy Spirit came down upon 120 believers to start the church. They were sealed by the Holy Spirit so that God dwelt in them permanently. Just as He seals us today as born-again believers.

 

[Zaakir]

blazynfattys...what i was refering to being confusing is that its refered to being the holy spirit, but then jesus says its not, as he says he cannot come while i am here,

dondi...the verses i quoted werent in the old testament they wer in the new testament (relating to the holy spirit being here before jesus' birth and in his life), however what u said kind of makes some sens,e however jesus tells us to try the spirits, and that the spirit will taech us many things....i dont recall being taught anything by the holy spirit physically, if were talking mentally or spiritually, i beleiev i have learnt a lot, but thats through god, no-one but Him, no 'dove' as its referd to, its godwho wills everything right?He craeted the universe and man, not the holy spirit (i maybe confused, but i was brought up in catholic school, where the 'dove' human and god, were 3 distinct things, so i see it as being 3 different gods, i cant accept it being 1 in 3 parts, as ive been made to think of all seperate, jesus fasted was tempted, he died, to me how can god die, a human by fact is a created being, if jesus was god in a human form (ps, does this mean he was just a 1/3 of god, or god became human) then no matter what god is a craeted being, limited to time and space, who feels pain)

i have no idea about the trinity, but its never been spoke of in the bible, neither has how to wash myself, or properly how to pray, or how to eat etc, so waht does it mean, he will teach you ALL things? i also think form the OT quotes, that spirit talked of there is a spiritual thing, like faith, and in another of the verses i think it refers to god Himself (Ephesians 4:30) spirit is somehting commonly associated with god, its not asif we can say heart of god, as we cannot in any way associate Him to craeted things.

Bruce Michael... i think this makes sense, i dont know who mani is though!but ive herad that the holy spirit referd to is the angel gabriel by some people, this kida fits in somewhere with me! however in the NT jesus uses the word spirit and prophet to mean the same, not the word angel!??!?!?!

thank you for your replies

 

[Dondi]

The Holy Spirit teaches in the area of the conscience. Initially, the Holy Spirit comes to convict the world of sin, righteousness,and judgement:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." - John 16:7-13

It should be noted in the latter part of the passage that the Spirit of Truth will guide us into all truth and shew you things to come. In the books following the Gospels, we have teaching by some the Apostles, most notably Paul. Revelation was written by John and details future events.

Peter, in his second letter has this to say about prophecy:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." - II Peter 1:19-21

So the Holy Spirit moved the writers of the New Testament to write what they learned from the Holy Spirit.

It is important to realize a fundamental difference between one who is born of the Spirit, and one who is not. The bible clearly teaches that those who have not the Spirit of God cannot understand the things of God:

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." - I Corinthians 2:9-16

This means that only when we are in a relationship with the Living God through His Spirit will we understand the things of God. I offer the anaology of a marriage. A person can see two other people in a marriage and know mentally what it might be like, but until he takes that step and in holy matrimony with another person, he won't know spiritually, emotionally, and physically the relationship of being in love with the woman. Neither can one know experientially the things of God unless He is born again of the PSirit and has entered into a relationship through the Spirit.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Zaakir —

i dont recall being taught anything by the holy spirit physically, if were talking mentally or spiritually, i beleiev i have learnt a lot, but thats through god, no-one but Him,

Where did you learn about God? And how God teaches?

no 'dove' as its referd to, its god who wills everything right? He craeted the universe and man, not the holy spirit

Genesis 1:2 "and the spirit of God moved over the waters" — something to think about ... is the Spirit of God less than God? And yet is not the Spirit of God other than God? So two Gods?

(i maybe confused, but i was brought up in catholic school, where the 'dove' human and god, were 3 distinct things, so i see it as being 3 different gods,

Well, you got that completely wrong ... tell me, did you learn the Creed at this school? And did anyone ever explain it to you?

i cant accept it being 1 in 3 parts, as ive been made to think of all seperate, jesus fasted was tempted, he died, to me how can god die, a human by fact is a created being, if jesus was god in a human form (ps, does this mean he was just a 1/3 of god, or god became human) then no matter what god is a craeted being, limited to time and space, who feels pain)

Where was this school, exactly?

But you are talking of a Mystery, and one that defies the kind of understanding you're looking for. So the question really is, can you live with a mystery, or do you need everything explained? If the latter, then I think the Catholic Church is not for you.

Here is an extract from the Definition of Chalcedon, the Church Council of 451 — but be warned, it is not 'easy':

"Therefore, following the holy Fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and a body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but as regards his manhood begotten for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only- begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without seperation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the Fathers has handed down to us."
​

i have no idea about the trinity, but its never been spoke of in the bible,

Are you sure it was a Catholic school? Were you absent a lot? Ifd you don't understand Christology, you'll never be able to tackle the Trinity.

neither has how to wash myself, or properly how to pray, or how to eat etc, so waht does it mean, he will teach you ALL things?

The Holy Spirit teaches the things of the spirit ... as my Catholic tutor said, there's no mention of bicycles in the Bible, but we ride bicycles — do we suppose the Holy Spirit taught man how to ride a bike?

Really you should address these questions to someone who knows what he's talking about, rather than throw a load of opinions out to see what comes back.

i also think form the OT quotes, that spirit talked of there is a spiritual thing, like faith, and in another of the verses i think it refers to god Himself (Ephesians 4:30) spirit is somehting commonly associated with god, its not asif we can say heart of god, as we cannot in any way associate Him to craeted things.

Except that the Spirit can illuminate created beings, and lead them to God.

And man can talk in symbols and metaphors, otherwise we'd never be able to say anything at all about the Divine.

The big trap, is people get caught up in the symbols.

The Spirit leads to the Son, the Son to the Father ... so whilst the Son moved among men, the Spirit worked discreetly ... then when the Son was no longer among men, the Spirit came into His own.

ive herad that the holy spirit referd to is the angel gabriel by some people, this kida fits in somewhere with me! however in the NT jesus uses the word spirit and prophet to mean the same, not the word angel!??!?!?!

Not quite, i think...

He uses Spirit rarely, and specifically. Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit, as is healing, and so forth, so the Spirit 'moves' the prophet, which all the Old Testament prophets testify.

There is a difference between 'Spirit' — by which we mean Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity, and 'spirit' (small 'r') which can mean an angel, or a person ('he was there in spirit'), an animal 'he's got some spirit... ' or even an occasion, when we say 'rise to the spirit of ...' etc ... so spirit with a small s is general, Spirit with a capital S is particular.

Thomas

 

[Zaakir]

michael

I learnt about god through life, but I never got told much about Him, it was always jesus, in church and in school, I started to think about god, and read about faiths, and I prayed to god and made much remembrance of Him, and think about Him, and remember Him all the time, not enough though, as I still sometimes waste time like watching t.v rarely, but still this is time im going to be held accountable for not praising my Lord. I believe god has answered my prayer and I wanted to do more for Him and dedicate my life as it were to His service, I often thought about the priesthood, but where I found gods love and my love for Him was through changing my religion

Genesis 1:2 "and the spirit of God moved over the waters" — something to think about ... is the Spirit of God less than God? And yet is not the Spirit of God other than God? So two Gods?

Well if I was Christian as you so said ‘’ Third Person of the Trinity’’ so your stating there are three persons in god or that are god I still don’t understand, lol. (by the way I really wouldn’t refer to god as a person). So if there are three, there has to be 2, 3-1=2 left, I don’t believe it means the holy spirit the part of the trinity, the third part of god that did this moving across the water, but I would say its god, why would god most high, the master, the creator, have to divide Himself up into three parts to do the work, I would have thought though according to Christians that the old testament has a duo or whatever as jesus wasn’t born as yet, he was made through a woman, so he wouldn’t have existed without his mother, so he wasn’t born or in existence until about 2000yrs ago

At school which was a Roman Catholic school, they taught us about the trinity but used a shamrock to explain it, which doesn’t work, I think its in-explainable, and it also not mentioned in the bible. And why wouldn’t the holy spirit teach you to ride a bike? Didn’t god teach adam the names of everything, I was asking questions on here to get some insite on the trinity, as I find the concept of it confusing and I really cant explain it, are there three gods in one (that’s the way we learnt it) or is it one god who has 3 parts, or does god have 3 forms, but He is one thing? You’re right its not easy, religion shouldn’t be this difficult, and I am a medical student, and would like to think I have a brain!

Something else you said about the spirit guiding people to god,why cant god do it? This must mean that the spirit and god are different things, they are 2 distinct beings, why cant god guide people, this is my real confusion with Christianity, jesus is the one who forgives sins, and brings people to life, the spirit guides and watched over, what does god do?

 

[BlaznFattyz]

blazynfattys...what i was refering to being confusing is that its refered to being the holy spirit, but then jesus says its not, as he says he cannot come while i am here

The holy spirit is the comforter, and this is who jesus is referring to. just as god walked among us as jesus, so does the holy spirit dwell with the church.

 

[Saltmeister]

learnt about god through life

Yes!!! That's what it's all supposed to be about. The Trinity is not about God. It's about our relationship with God. We are not trying to define God. We are conceptualising a relationship with God. The Trinity is about an interaction.

At school which was a Roman Catholic school, they taught us about the trinity but used a shamrock to explain it, which doesn’t work, I think its in-explainable, and it also not mentioned in the bible. And why wouldn’t the holy spirit teach you to ride a bike? Didn’t god teach adam the names of everything, I was asking questions on here to get some insite on the trinity, as I find the concept of it confusing and I really cant explain it, are there three gods in one (that’s the way we learnt it) or is it one god who has 3 parts, or does god have 3 forms, but He is one thing? You’re right its not easy, religion shouldn’t be this difficult, and I am a medical student, and would like to think I have a brain!

I'd like to say that it may be the other way round here!!! The Trinity is not a machine with parts. It's a concept that helps us understand something. It's much like what happens with quantum physics. Quantum physics (unlike classical physics) doesn't describe reality. It describes a way of understanding reality. Quantum physics was where people gave up seeing matter as only a wave or particle and allowed the two concepts to co-exist in the same philosophy so that physical phenomena could be explained.

Religion and science don't work the same way, but I think this would be a useful analogy for understanding the concepts involved here.

The so-called "Trinity" has no fixed meaning. The idea that the Trinity is "three parts" of something (ie. God) is similar to the classical approach to physics which tries to define physical phenomena. What is being attempted here is to define limits and boundaries for God, which I do not believe is the purpose of the Trinity.

There are different ways of viewing the Trinity, and each person must come to an understanding of what the Trinity means. Life is a process involving struggles, challenges and relationships. Different dynamics are at play in the lives of each individual. The Trinity is to be understood based on the dynamics involved in a person's life and the perspective of that individual.

The Trinity might be seen by some to be God taking three forms. Non-Christians may well see it that way. However, I don't think even that is essential.

There are many ways in which God can communicate with us. The important thing is that we see something "God-like" in the medium or the behaviour of the medium God uses to communicate with us. God does not become the medium. He uses the medium to send signals. God could use a car, a plate, table, television or computer to talk to us. That is not God taking forms. What then do we say about the Bible and the Quran? Is the fact that the Bible and Quran contains writing the reason why we don't say "this is God taking forms?" Of course not. God is speaking to us through a book, but he does not become a book in the process of using the book to talk to us.

The book is not God taking forms. Even if the book grew legs, arms, eyes and a mouth, it would still not be God taking forms. What then, would happen if, after growing limbs and sensory organs, the book ceased to be a book and became a person? Would that be God taking forms? In the transition of transforming from a book to a person that can talk and interact with human beings, when does it become God taking forms?

The answer is that we would still not see this "medium of communication" as God taking forms, but God talking to us. The medium is not a permanent entity. God can cancel the connection and re-connect via some other medium if the connection is lost. God is using the object or person as a transmission medium. The object may well be a living person, but that doesn't mean that God is taking forms. It is not essential for God to be a car, rock, mountain, television, picture or even an animal (ie. a human being) to be God. God is just using the entity serving as a medium to communicate. The attributes of the object mean nothing.

The Trinity is about God interacting with us. The Spirit (ie. Holy Spirit) is a concept of something fluid-like that blows in different directions -- like the wind. We can't see the wind, but we can feel it and see what it does. This is one of the analogies that Jesus used.

Something else you said about the spirit guiding people to god,why cant god do it? This must mean that the spirit and god are different things, they are 2 distinct beings, why cant god guide people, this is my real confusion with Christianity, jesus is the one who forgives sins, and brings people to life, the spirit guides and watched over, what does god do?

It was God; it was the Spirit. It was the same person using a different mode of interaction. The same entity did it all. It was the same "Divine Wind." People couldn't see that Divine Wind, but people could see what it did. They knew it was the same Wind because it was the only "Wind" that could have done those things.

If you take the classical view, you will indeed see three entities. If you take the quantum view, you may see just one. A lot of stories have a hidden/secret meaning. In this one, the point was that one person did all these things.

It was, at first, a secret. People didn't know God was talking through a tree, river, car, television or computer, except for a few people. The few people who knew realised it was God because no other person would talk like that, even if someone else had the power to do it. Even if an angel did that, they could have told the difference. They knew it wasn't a powerful angel masquerading with a message from God.

But what if everyone knew God was doing that -- talking through a car, television or river? It would be too popular to be sincere. You believe it's God because everyone else in the neighbourhood believes that. Nobody wants to miss out on what everyone else thinks is God so they get involved because they think they are getting close to God. God isn't much into fads and popular culture, as He could just as easily get drowned in popular culture and become just one insignificant voice among many. Because God is an otherworldly entity, when He reveals Himself, He would more likely reveal Himself as something otherworldly than "of the world."

Jesus was someone you could see. The work he did was also visible to people. What was not immediately visible to all was how God was involved in the work he did, and that God was expressing Himself in the work that He did. A lot of things Jesus said and did was what God would have done. He was demonstrating God to people. The invisible aspect was the wind that people couldn't see. It was the Spirit. It was God. The visible aspects weren't important. The essential meaning was in the invisible.

One of the most important things in Christianity is to focus on the invisible as the pursuit of the invisible is a way of connecting with the Divine (God). The visible entities are just a cover. The reason is simple: we can't see God. Jesus was visible. A lot of people put the focus on Jesus because he was visible. The point is to look beyond Jesus and see how he was pointing back to God.