Are Theosophy & Anthroposophy Religions?

Discussion in 'Esoteric' started by Bruce Michael, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I think the issue is that many personal and organised spiritual belief systems will inevitably make claims that cannot stand up to any scientific scrutiny.

    What may seem an outrageous claim to one person, may be a matter of faith to another. I'm sure many of us hold opinions on belief which are determined by personal experience, rather than through scientific validation (I'm always reminded of the fact that science could not explain how bees could fly, or fish swim as fast as they do, until more recent breakthroughs in modelling turbulence using chaos maths over the past decade - should we therefore have disbelieved that bees could fly or fish could swim fast before the maths was able to explain?).

    In terms of racism - I agree that initially I raised the question of connections to the Neo Nazi's with Theosophy - but at present I'm satisfied that while there may have been anti-semitic beliefs held by people such as M. Blavatsky, I don't see this followed through in the Theosophical writings or philosophy since. I mean, if the TS really were focused on white superiority, why would they have announced the world's messiah was the Indian Krishnamurti in the early 20th century?
     
  2. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Brian,

    I appreciate your support and open-mindedness on the subject. You are right about how Krishnamurti's story shows that the Theosphical Society is not a racial organization -- I had not thought of it that way.
     
  3. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Brian, they only problem with this theory is that after the TS chose him it resulted in significant disagreement within the movement and Krishnamurti rejected Theosophy after 1929:

    Jiddu Krishnamurti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. Raksha

    Raksha New Member

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    bgruagach,

    Re...scientific and historical questions really don't change because of who is asking them.

    That's a very good point and one I'm going to keep in mind from now on. If I had looked at the issue in that way, I might have avoided a lot of unnecessary friction in on this forum and elsewhere.

    Thanks! :)

    --Linda
     
  5. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Indeed, but the fact is they chose an Indian, not some blue-eyed blonde American-Australian or similar figure.

    And, of course, it is absolutely ironic that a person picked by an organisation to lead them, then turned around and repudiated all forms of organised belief!

    More on Krishnamurti on the frontend of IO:
    jiddu krishnamurti - alternative spirituality
     
  6. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    Hi Brian,
    Those "blue-eyed blondes" are just a Nazi idea of Aryan. The Persians/Iraqis, the Iranians (Iran means Aryan), and the Indians are considered Aryan. HPB was friendly with the Arya Samaj when she first went to india. That organization still exists today.
    K. was an Aryan (but that's neither here nor there) and he wasn't chosen as leader of the TS.
    Charlie Leadbeater chose Krishnamurti to be the future World Teacher (or incarnation of Christ) after changing his mind on other candidates. Annie Besant went along with it, and during this time the Society had its greatest number of members. However many didn't like the Leadbeater teachings and way of life. The "Back to Blavatskyites" started their own new societies, and the majority of the German Section went with Rudolf Steiner.
     
  7. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Bruce,

    If I remember correctly, Annie Besant said that Indians are the first sub-race of the Fifth Race, and Iranians (Persians) are the second sub-race of the Fifth Race. I find it fascinating to think that the name Aryan was possibly taken from the second sub-race and not the first sub-race.

    I also agree that true Aryans are not blonde-haired and blue-eyed, as the Nazis propogandized them to be. (Techinically speaking, some are blonde-haired and blue-eyed, but most are not.)
     
  8. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    She may have had it that way, Nick. Dr. Steiner has it like this:

    1. first sub as the Ancient Indian (prehistorical)
    2. and then the Ancient Persian,
    3. 3rd- the Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian;
    4. 4th- the Greek (the Hebrew coincides)
    We are in the Fifth Post Atlantean Epoch (or Sub Race). The whole Root Race was once referred to as "Aryan" (meaning "Noble"), so all of the above Sub Races are part of it. Since the Nazis tainted the term we can refer to it as the Post Atlantean Root Race or Cultural Epoch.
     
  9. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Bruce,

    I am glad to see that Steiner and Besant agree. (They both have the first two sub-races as the same.)
     
  10. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Bruce,

    I think it is fascinating that Steiner lists Hebrew (Jews) as part of the third sub-race. Blavatsky seems to be saying that the Jews were the first sub-race (which supposedly began the difficulties the Jews have had all the way to the present). I wonder how the discrepancy is resolved.
     
  12. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    These are the dates (by Steiner) (I haven't double checked, but they look OK):
    7893 BC Ancient Indian 5733 BC > Ancient Persian Epoch 2970 BC > Egypto- Chaldean 747BC > 4th- Greco-Roman Epoch > 1413 AD > 5th Present > 3573 AD

    You can find similarities between the Greek myths and the Hebrew stories -
    Greek Mythology and The Bible
     
  13. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    We are not focused on racial differences Avi, rather we are concerned with Universal Brotherhood. Now you can try to understand or actively misunderstand- it's your choice.
    If you came to a theosophical society wishing to give a talk on Jewish Mysticism, for instance, you'd find the podium was open to you (particularly in the Adyar Society). In fact the Star of David is there carved in wood on the wall, in some of the lecture halls - along with the symbols of the other major religions.

    Speaking from my own understanding there are twelve prototypical races (some give seven). There are twelve because the correspond to the Zodiac influences- just as the Twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve knights of the Round Table. The times of the Cultural Epochs (or Subraces) relate to, but do not correspond to the Zodiac Ages (Age of Aquarius, Age of Aries etc.).

    Just as on cannot say that one particular Zodiac sign is better than another, so it is with the races. They are different but complement each other. Nature loves variety- and so do I:).
     
  14. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Bruce, as I said on the earlier post, I think this discussion is better continued in the B&S sub-forum because it is a neutral setting.

    ===========>>>>>>>http://www.interfaith.org/forum/theosophy-open-discussion-12364.html#post219740
     
  15. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    The Theosophical Society

    As it was said.
     

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