What IS going on?

[LoveGod]

Hi everyone,

I've been doing comparative religious studies now for approx. 10 yrs.
and I've been initiated into Dzogchen (A "sudden path" way) for approx. 3/4 yrs. and I'm now a Master Mason in Freemasonry as well as have been studying Jiddhu Krishnamurti's "teachings" which are a form of "sudden enlightenment" teachings for about 10 yrs.

I've studied Theosophy and used to belong to the Theosophica Society (Adyar) & I've studied Anthroposophy as well. Insofar as that goies, it's a good idea to "cross-reference" Theosophy & Anthroposophy to see where they agree & differ also.

At this point in my life, I've had (past tense) seen bands of color only once, near a persons' ribcage, I have been giving prophetic words out to people I DO NOT know and they say "How did you know about me/my situation?" My response is "I didn't know, I saw a vision in which you were doing such and such and I hear ****** speak to me regarding this vision" or simply "I heard ******* speak to me about you," and have had other experiences.

These experiences are in no way connected to drug use, alcohol, delirium. insanity, imagination or fancy! I merely speak to you, The Reader, about me from my heart.

As I compare Theosophical/Anthroposophical works to my life I must concur with a portion of that corpus of understanding/perception. Certain Esoteric aspects are beyond my experience, personally.

Having said all this I come to the following point:
"Just what IS going on here on Earth & the Universe?"

It seems that Dzogchen/Ch'an/Zen (All "sudden path" Buddhist ways) have a very visceral approach to life, as do Theosophy/Anthroposophy. I find that Advaita Vedanta seems to be "removed" somewhat from the full human experience of life. Taoism is something that is not extremely familiar to me understanding wise, so I'm mute in regards to that.

It also seems that Buddhist, "Hindu", and Jain perspectives on the phaenomenal world are as follows: "You are trapped/deceived in this realm, in a physical body and you must get free, here's how, right now." They seem to leave no room to enjoy creation or the energy patterns/vibratory movement we call "trees, animals, other people, etc."

Esoteric/Occult (I strictly mean Theosophical/Anthroposophical perspectives) say that gradual evolution is the way it is, with, of course, seeking liberation for ALL beings not just one's self.
Buddhism (Dzogchen/Ch'an/Zen) and Advaita Vedanta, however, seem to counter that by saying: "Liberation/Escape is now."

Moreover, Esoteric literature extols the planet earth and it's creatures, the physical universe, and higher dimensions as well, as things to enjoy & understand and not flee from in terror. Liberation IS in the Esoteric framework

What do YOU think?
LoveGod God bless you, always.

 

[earl]

I wanted to address a misconception in your post about Buddhism-a common one held by those who have not plumbed its writings or approach too much-the conception that Buddhism somehow disdains the body or this "worldly" existience. Buddhism is not about "escaping" that per se. If you wish to use the term "escaping" then it sees that as suffering is due to belief in a self that does not ultimately exist in the way we commonly take it to exist, then it's about escaping that erroneous view. One of the Buddhist paths you mentioned, Zen, is chock full of an "earthy" embrace, (albeit an "empty" one) of this world. take care, earl

 

[Paladin]

It seems that many people have been through path after path, religion after religion, practice after practice to find themselves not knowing any more than when they started. There was a thread started by Awating The Fifth called "When the spiritual path becomes a dirt track" if memory serves (but please don't count on that

One thing that seems apparent to me right now is that no matter what dicipline you are studying it can only be a shadow of what is. Therefore if we can imagine it, if we can talk about it, it isn't it. How many of us have embraced just another construct? Sometimes we even eschew our own culture and embrace another thinking that it is somehow "higher" or more "spiritual"
With so many fingers pointing at the moon it is a wonder any of us take the time to just look at the moon at all!

 

[Snoopy]

It seems that Dzogchen/Ch'an/Zen (All "sudden path" Buddhist ways)

It also seems that Buddhist, "Hindu", and Jain perspectives on the phaenomenal world are as follows: "You are trapped/deceived in this realm, in a physical body and you must get free, here's how, right now."

Buddhism (Dzogchen/Ch'an/Zen) and Advaita Vedanta, however, seem to counter that by saying: "Liberation/Escape is now."

I think the suddenness of satori is associated with (particularly) the Linji / Rinzai school of Ch’an / Zen but is not necessarily a defining characteristic of Ch’an / Zen. In the other “main” school of Ch’an / Zen (Caodong / Soto) the fundamental premise is that one is already “enlightened” but live in delusion because of our egotistical / selfish / dualistic mind; to be “overcome” through the regular practice of objectless meditation (which is therefore NOT meditation!), known as shikantaza.

So perhaps as a rather simplistic distinction, I would say that Rinzai Zen is associated with a “sudden path” and the use of koans, whereas Soto Zen is now (but actualized through shikantaza).

s.

 

[earl]

To follow up on Paladin's use of the well known metaphor used in Buddhism about fingers pointing at the moon, the "moon," of course is reality-as-it-is, seen from the perspective of someone who has "escaped" the confines of viewing things from the perspective of "self." In Buddhism there is the notion that there are rare individuals who are so "ripe" for enlightenment-so innately able to see that moon-that no particular practice or path is necessary. As for the rest-the vast bulk of humanity-Buddhism speaks of "84, 000 Dharma doors" which can enable someone to get to that point of seeing unassisted-i.e. many paths which converge on the same point.

I tend to believe that all spiritual paths, theistic or non-theistic are simply ways to enable one to escape the confines of limited and ultimately false self views. If/when we do, do we all see the same moon? Don't know-guess I'll know if/when I get there. But it seems that most of use could benefit from a good optometrist and the chief thing about choosing the right glasses is simply to ask yourself "how well do those glasses fit on my face?" Find a pair that does and then just keep looking. earl

 

[Francis king]

...maybe we are all simply trapped, but trapped by ourselves? God, the numinous, happiness, peace, etc, etc, whatever it is we are looking for, is right there, right in front of us and yet, we study path after path and still don't find that thing which we are looking for...why is that?

you have tried Dzogchen, your're a master mason, a devotee of krisnamurti, you've studied theosophy, and all the other things, yet... alas... you havent yet found what you're looking for...

you describe your psychic powers, visions, prophesies, yet you then add- that certain esoteric aspects are beyond your understanding...

so, maybe it's not a case of- whats going on in the world, but... what is going on with you?

I read your post and thought, oh, here we go, another guru type trying on some sham humility to please the peasants... I thought- why is he bothering with all this nonsense, the years of study, et cetera, when he's obviously not got "it" yet?

the conclusion I come to is... you need to let go of looking at other peoples answers and look to yourself...

although you might wear all these posh robes, and speak eloquently about how much earnest study you have done, yet... it hasn't done you any good, if your still unsure about how things play out...

if this is true, then maybe you just havent found the right path for you yet, and instead of walking the paths of others, maybe you should instead work out your own..? Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed: none of these ppl reached their goals by doing as they were told, or by following someone elses party line, did they? so, why should it be any different for you and the rest of us?

I don't agree that liberation is in the esoteric framework- far from it... in fact, maybe I'd go so far to say its the complete opposite...

liberated, yet weighed down with the weighty tomes you cling to.... enlightened, yet still unable to think for yourself...

now, maybe that's not what you were after- but that's what I'm seeing...

what do you think? Do you believe there is a God? For, if you don't, then trying to reach him/her/them is pointless, surely?

If you don't believe in God, then why bother studying? for the powers? for the status? Because you hope there is some answer in there which will make everything make sense?

then its a complete waste of time! instead, you'd be better off going out, getting drunk, and getting laid...

adios...

 

[earl]

Francis is nothing if not colorful. In fact, she and 17th are probably the most "colorful" crayons in our little box of crayolas here. But we do have a range of colors here including some a bit more "beige." earl

 

[Nick the Pilot]

LoveGod, I would like to answer your questions. My answers, as always, are colored by the fact that I am a T.S. Adyar member. You said,

"...it's a good idea to "cross-reference" Theosophy & Anthroposophy to see where they agree & differ also."
​

--> It is all about concepts. It is a good idea to look at both sets of concepts, see which fit into your belief system, and which do not. This is a very good use of time.

"At this point in my life, I've had (past tense) seen bands of color only once, near a persons' ribcage, I have been giving prophetic words out to people I DO NOT know and they say "How did you know about me/my situation?"
​

--> You may wish to pursue the development of your weak psychic skills. If you wish to do so, I suggest you study with someone already familiar with these things.

"As I compare Theosophical/Anthroposophical works to my life I must concur with a portion of that corpus of understanding/perception."
​

--> Speaking from the Theosophical side of things, I can say this is exactly what Theosophy exists for.

"Just what IS going on here on Earth & the Universe?"
​

--> Everything in the universe is evolving. "No doubt the universe is evolving, as it should."

"It seems that Dzogchen/Ch'an/Zen (All "sudden path" Buddhist ways) have a very visceral approach to life, as do Theosophy/Anthroposophy."
​

--> I have been called many things, but never a visceral philosophist!

"It also seems that Buddhist, "Hindu", and Jain perspectives on the phaenomenal world are as follows: "You are trapped/deceived in this realm, in a physical body and you must get free, here's how, right now."
​

--> Theosophy take a more positive approach. Theosophy says: We are here in this stressful physical world for a reason. Get out of it what you can, then move onto the next higher stage.

"They seem to leave no room to enjoy creation or the energy patterns/vibratory movement we call "trees, animals, other people, etc."
​

--> Theosophy does.

"Esoteric/Occult (I strictly mean Theosophical/Anthroposophical perspectives) say that gradual evolution is the way it is, with, of course, seeking liberation for ALL beings not just one's self."
​

--> Speaking for Theosophy, you are correct. The very purpose of entering Nirvana is to do nothing but go around and do nice things for everybody. (I am very much looking forward to it.)

"Buddhism (Dzogchen/Ch'an/Zen) and Advaita Vedanta, however, seem to counter that by saying: "Liberation/Escape is now."
​

--> Theosophy says "escape" as soon as you are ready.

"What do YOU think?"
​

--> Liberation IS in the Esoteric framework.

 

[Neemai]

Hello LoveGod,

thank you for your post. In a nutshell my response is :

Having said all this I come to the following point:
"Just what IS going on here on Earth & the Universe?"

I don't know exactly, but it would appear that there is a divine purpose behind this world which we can choose to elevate ourselves towards through sincerely performed spiritual [and morale] practices and by meeting, working with and learning from other people who have a purer quality of heart than ourselves.

It seems that Dzogchen/Ch'an/Zen (All "sudden path" Buddhist ways) have a very visceral approach to life, as do Theosophy/Anthroposophy. I find that Advaita Vedanta seems to be "removed" somewhat from the full human experience of life.

I agree. Zen & Advaita make logical sense up to a point, but definitely seem to be missing the personal aspect.

It also seems that Buddhist, "Hindu", and Jain perspectives on the phaenomenal world are as follows: "You are trapped/deceived in this realm, in a physical body and you must get free, here's how, right now." They seem to leave no room to enjoy creation or the energy patterns/vibratory movement we call "trees, animals, other people, etc."

For the liberational traditions whose aim is moksa, or release from this world this is clearly the case. However, there are also the Vaishnava Bhakti paths, who neither aspire for, or care for liberation. The aim of these traditions is to re-establish our eternal [personal] loving relationship with God, and through loving God, also awaken true love and compassion for all other living entities, both in this world and the next.

"Every living entity, not only human society, but the animal society, the bird society, tree society, the aquatic society -- all living entities, they're all sons of Krishna. Why shall I kill a fish or a cow, or a goat? He's also son of Krishna." This is Krishna consciousness

LoveGod God bless you, always.

God Bless, Hallelujah! Allah Akhbar! Hare Krishna!


... Neemai

 

[iBrian]

"Just what IS going on here on Earth & the Universe?"

We are living out a dream of the Universal Mind.

Does that help?

 

[LoveGod]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to sincerely thank you for your insights.

I must stress that I decided to speak of "psychic/paranormal" things that happened to me out of a sense of perplexion.

It was NOT to glorify myself, but express myself and perhaps get insight from people on this particular forum.

I, furthermore, DO believe in God and I also AM NOT a "devotee" of krishnamurti.

The reason for my initial post was to try and see IF esoteric paths, IE. Theosophy/Anthroposophy and "Eastern" viewpoints such as Buddhism/Advaita Vedanta/etc. could be reconciled, IF they are reconcileable.

My point is that I'm not a guru and don't seek a "cult" following.
I just merely expressed myself.

As a caveat, Please post constructively and not negatively, as I decided to join this forum and express VERY personal things which have happened to me.

Thank you, LoveGod God Bless you all, always.

 

[iBrian]

Well, LoveGod, a lot of people have been through pretty extreme spiritual experiences here, even including the prophetic and messianic. Those who are happy to engage in dialogue are welcome, but those who insist on aggressively turning CR into their personal preaching vehicle tend to get chucked out.

 

[Francis king]

sorry if you read me wrong, lovegod...

I always reply with what I feel makes sense at the time- if I offended you, then... great! result! lol...

although that wasn't my intention... yes, I've just read back my post, and maybe it seems a bit harsh, but maybe...

try it this way... replace "you", the personal pronoun, with "me", "us"... see what I'm saying now? does that maybe make more sense..?

I am, maybe, a little like you... I also have "psychic/paranormal" experiences, and nor do I state this merely to self aggrandise- but there are a lot who do, self aggrandise, I mean, and well... thats not a sin...

but, as you say, you're not mentioning what you say to boast- and I'll take your word for that, as that echoes my own initial findings- I do not think you are boasting- in fact- quite the opposite... and thats what galls me...

you are, shall we say, "awakening", and yet... instead of forging your own path, as I feel people like us should, instead you worry about "reconciling these two different paths", when in truth, "the way is never not the way"...

interesting to see that you believe in a God, and allow me to stand corrected re: you being a devotee of krishnamurti- I should have said student, maybe, or fan...

But hey, if its going to be all about theosophy...

without buddhism and hinduism, there would be no theosophy. theosophy, by its very definition should be about the study of god. Without a god theosophy becomes worthless. As far as I can see, these "eastern" and "theosophic" angles are not different to each other... the only difference being, Blavatsky wasn't good enough to understand everything she supposedly understood, and if she borrowed too much she would have had to call Theosophy something else and Blavatsky wouldn't have made so much money...

as for me posting "constructively and not negatively", that would assume everyone in the world thinks the same as you and we all live in a magical kingdom to the west where honey flows in the rivers...

but...

...I'm waiting for the real Maitreya, not the Benjamin Creme version...

 

[Ciel]

Francis,
Ain't nothing wrong with straight talking sense...... and lady you make perfect sense. No mumbo, no jumbo. And there's the love and there's the light and it's full of care and strengh in a 21st century world.

Aye there be the sense of what's going on.................

- c -