The futile struggle for unity between Christian 'churches'

[Dream]

The futile struggle for unity between Christian 'churches': the reason Jesus left: the reason that centralization will not achieve unity: the reason we are not converted by the will of any man(John 1:13)

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

{A Song of degrees for Solomon.} Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep. Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God -- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption --that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave us birth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

 

[17th Angel]

I have confidence in the flesh :\

 

[Dream]

I deserved that crack, Alex. In my opinion, people who start off with posts that long don't deserve any consideration! Anyway, it seems like I suddenly recognize your face. Its the stuff of Legend.

 

[17th Angel]

No No no, I respect your post and you must had to have done quite a bit of digging and I appreciate you sharing it that is awesome...

What I was saying is the tone of the clippings of the bible.... No confidence in another man? That just stuck out you know.... That bit locked my eyes...

Recongise my face? What about my laugh!?

 

[17th Angel]

If I expand the photo it looks like this.....

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/150774-post244.html

 

[seattlegal]

And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Compare to the account of the Tower of Babel from Genesis 11

1 Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3 Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the LORD said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.​

Personally, I would much rather be a living stone (each one different) that builds the church than a baked brick (each one artificially made the same) that builds the tower...notice the rough handling (molding to specified size and baking) that is required to build the tower...

 

[juantoo3]

Personally, I would much rather be a living stone (each one different) that builds the church than a baked brick (each one artificially made the same) that builds the tower...notice the rough handling (molding to specified size and baking) that is required to build the tower...

For some reason this reminds me of a symbolic metaphor I use in my mind; of the muted song of a caged bird.

Yes, I would far rather be free to be as I was created and intended to be.

 

[Dream]

No No no, I respect your post and you must had to have done quite a bit of digging and I appreciate you sharing it that is awesome...

What I was saying is the tone of the clippings of the bible.... No confidence in another man? That just stuck out you know.... That bit locked my eyes...

Really, I have a hard time trying to read any post longer than an index card; and that's why I feel sheepish when I come out with a long one. Its OK, even if you didn't respect it; but I know you generally respect everybody's posts. And I do read the long ones -- just not as well.

I have a confidence that you or anyone else I know will continue to be who you are. I trust you except when it comes to certain things and it depends upon the individual.

 

[Dream]

Compare to the account of the Tower of Babel from Genesis 11

Nice points about the lively stones. Do you think that the stones of the temple are like the stones of Elijah's altar? Here are some verses I'm thinking about in relation to this:

"As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."

"Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again." Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Some things in the Bible which survived in fire: The burning bush(Exod 3:2), Shadrach Meshach, Abedneggo, and a Fourth(Dan 3:25), Israel in the furnace of affliction though not refined as silver(Isaiah 48:10), then a third is refined like silver (Zech 13:9), the Four Living Creatures(Ezek 1:5)

 

[seattlegal]

Nice points about the lively stones. Do you think that the stones of the temple are like the stones of Elijah's altar? Here are some verses I'm thinking about in relation to this:

"As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."

Like scattering the people from Babel.

Interestingly, 1 Peter 2:5 describes Christians as living stones that build the spiritual house.

"Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again." Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Being mortal creatures, we all have to die, and our physical bodies will return to the dust.

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Some things in the Bible which survived in fire: The burning bush(Exod 3:2), Shadrach Meshach, Abedneggo, and a Fourth(Dan 3:25), Israel in the furnace of affliction though not refined as silver(Isaiah 48:10), then a third is refined like silver (Zech 13:9), the Four Living Creatures(Ezek 1:5)

Testing by fire seems to refer to trying to poke holes in a theory to see how well it stands up. (Rather than just accepting something based upon authority.) Separating the wheat from the chaff, with the chaff being burned up with fire comes to mind. (Matt 3:12, Luke 3:17)

Lies need to be propped up; the truth can stand on it's own.

 

[juantoo3]

Like scattering the people from Babel.

Interestingly, 1 Peter 2:5 describes Christians as living stones that build the spiritual house.

It's been a while, but I seem to recall a passage, OT perhaps?, perhaps construction of the Temple in Solomon's reign?, that there was to be no sound of tools during the building...no hammers, saws, chisels.

My memory is flagging, but I recall this construction was to be dedicated to G-d, which accounts for the restrictions...

 

[seattlegal]

Jesus and Paul described the true source of unity among Christians:

John 13:34-35
34 "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Colossians 3:12-17
12 Therefore, God's chosen ones, holy and loved, put on heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, 13 accepting one another and forgiving one another if anyone has a complaint against another. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, so also you must [forgive]. 14 Above all, [put on] love—the perfect bond of unity. 15 And let the peace of the Messiah, to which you were also called in one body, control your hearts. Be thankful. 16 Let the message about the Messiah dwell richly among you, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, and singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.​

 

[soma]

Ecumenicalism is the promotion of unity and cooperation between distinct religious groups and denominations in Christianity and in the larger sense the unity among all religions worldwide. Jesus modeled this by associating with all people and castes.