Do you agree with this statement..?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by enlightenment, Oct 8, 2008.

  1. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    So the plot thickens .. You wish everyone to think like you think, lol. Hmm, you sound like many Christians, and other religious folk. Btw, it's not that we've been told to believe. Quite the contrary, we've suggested to you over and over that it is about our experiences. Your failure to realize this is not our fault, but your own.


    GK
     
  2. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Um....try to read things in context, and not place words in my mouth.

    I don't want everyone to think like me. I wish everyone to question any testimony that comes from anyone, and validate any proof that is offered to them. What I am saying is that everyone should do that, regardless of faith, or lack of.

    You do get it now, right?
     
  3. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Excellent.

    Now, what does that mean, in every day terms?

    Thanks
     
  4. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I think I do ... We've been telling you that certain things are validated through experience. You wish us to demand physical evidence like you demand physical evidence. It sounds to me like you want us to think like you in that respect. Some of do not need physical evidence to understand certain realities. Our experiences are proof, and validation enough.

    GK
     
  5. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Okay, give me one thing that I can do, over say the next week, that will validate god, and, for that matter, which god should I be validating?

    I'll try it with all sincerity, then report back.

    We'll call it a scientific experiment. If I feel anything, I will be honest enough to say so.
     
  6. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I don't know? Maybe open yourself up to His reality. Then again, if someone tried to get me to not believe in G-d for a week I couldn't do it. I think you are either open to His reality, or you are not. I don't think it matters in the long run, though. If your heart is in the right place, yet you lack theology, I think you'll be fine. The question is what's the condition of your heart? Maybe explore loving as Christ told us, and see if you are able to open up a bit that way. Then again, a person cannot force this type of experience. I think it just happens ....

    GK
     
  7. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    GK, this is a good post, a couple of good questions you threw me there, as well.

    I am going to bed soon, as I am real tired, but I am going to have a think on this, and will return tommorow.

    Steve
     
  8. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Not everyone who has a religion makes claims. Some just want an experience.

    Believing in something is not always a matter of whether it is intrinsically or absolutely true. Sometimes it's a sentimental thing. It's a matter of feeling that something should or needs to be true because of what they value.

    Sometimes, and for some people, the value of believing that a belief is true is more important than whether the belief is actually true.

    Do you not think that this is a "truth" about beliefs? Am I right in believing that the value of a belief being true is more important than the belief itself being true? Is it not valuable and meaningful to believe that?

    Maybe what people really mean by "truth" is "value" and "meaning." A belief that is truth is "truth" not in the sense of being a fact, but "true" in the sense that it is so valuable and meaningful that it has to be true because there must be some wonder in the world, that the world and life can't be so horrible and painful as to not have this wonderful thing that can make life as wonderful is it could wonderfully be. Therefore, this "wonder in the world," "wonder of the world," wonder of the universe, must exist because the life and the universe in which one lives would not be so cruel for it to not be true.

    It's like a man and woman falling in love, believing in destiny, believing in the one-and-only perfect soul mate. The One. The One and Only. Forever.

    What do you want people to see that they are not already seeing, or that they do not already understand?

    I believe whatever I like. It is my life. I don't believe what I am told to believe. I am an individual. If I have a personal experience and I want to form beliefs based on that, it is my decision. I can do whatever I like with my personal experiences. They are my personal experiences. They belong to me, not someone else.
     
  9. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    That there is no soul, there is no god, there is no evidence at all for any of the so called miracles of Jesus, that an angel :rolleyes:, did not come down from heaven, and converse with Mo, etc, etc, etc, etc.

    Perfectly sane and rational people can believe in irrational things.
     
  10. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    hi perhaps the OP statement should read extra ordinary claims demand extra ordinary experience which of course is always personal; perhaps it happens 'out of the blue', by synchronicity or, as you may think, dependent on belief systems inculcated and developed whether consciously or unconsciously-therefore 'supernatural' or 'mystical' experiences are projections? either way surely it is meaningful to ask what significance this has on the person and how it affects and directs their life in action deed and consciousness?
     
  11. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    But why is belief in the divine and supernatural, to you, always irrational?

    What is your definition of rationality?

    If you said that rationality relies on evidence, I would disagree. The word "rational" does not imply the existence or requirement of evidence. The dictionary definition of "rationality" implies that rationality is about reasoning and judgment. Reasoning and judgment do not always involve evidence. Sometimes one must make a decision or judgment without sufficient evidence. In these cases, one must fall back on one's experience and intuition. Decisions made on such a basis cannot be deemed "irrational" just because they do not involve evidence. There is no evidence, yet one must still make a decision.

    It is the same here with belief in the supernatural. The people considering such beliefs weigh the pros, cons and possibilities, with little evidence, and their intuition leads them either to believe or disbelieve.

    When solving practical problems, yes, one must utilise one's knowledge of science and engineering. In the middle of solving an engineering problem, one does not suddenly cry out to the angels to provide a missing component. That is definitely irrational.

    But belief in the supernatural is not a practical issue that requires a practical response or judgment. It is a sentimental issue that requires sentimental thinking.

    In the case of the engineering problem, fair judgment involves knowledge of science and engineering. In the case of the supernatural, it requires sentimental thinking. Thinking sentimentally when thinking of the supernatural could be thought of as "fair judgment" because you cannot rule out their existence and you have rightly classified it as one of those things where practical knowledge does not apply.

    To me, fair judgment is when one employs practical knowledge to situations that need it. When a person involves fair judgment they are thinking rationally.

    It is like what Jesus says, to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's. Not everything should or must involve practical knowledge. It is a question of appropriateness. Practical issues require employment of practical knowledge. Sentimental issues like belief in the supernatural and divine require sentimental thinking. Thinking with the right concepts for the right situations is fair judgment and therefore rational.

    You have to match problems that involve Caesar with Caesar-oriented thinking and problems that involve God with God-oriented thinking. It's a matter of matching the thinking with the issues involved.

    One person's judgment and intuition leads them to believe in the supernatural and divine. For another person, it leads them to disbelief.
     
  12. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    Fair play.

    But here is an example.

    Three times in my life, I have had women (always women), swear to me that they went to see a 'medium', and that they were 'totally spot on'.:rolleyes:

    I didn't mock, I went, with an open mind, to see what was so great about these mediums, all three of them. Result? A whole bunch of BS that I could blag you about myself, and I was several ££££ the lighter for it.
     
  13. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    When people are in extreme circumstances they start praying to their gods or God.

    Your ancestors were no exception probably, and you are no exception.

    Fella.

    TK
     
  14. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    I pray to no one, chap.

    Why not?

    Because, imo, it is rather like talking to yourself.
     
  15. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Is chap meant to be a derogatory term? I've heard it being used as an affectionate term for someone you like. As for "fella" doesn't that mean "fellow?"

    chap definition | Dictionary.com
    As for comments about Christians, I haven't heard him refer to Christians specifically. Most of the time it's comments about theism and religious belief. But that isn't any worse than what Fundie Christians say and do in the sense of being straw men.

    With personal attacks, I usually just pretend it never happened. A personal attack is only a personal attack if I treat it like one. I usually have enough things to say to not have to focus on offensive and insulting comments. I just say what I think about the issue and just ignore them. Most of the time it's not the other guy's fault anyway. We've all got our prejudices and mannerisms. If comments are offensive and insulting I could alert them to that, but if you accuse them of deliberately being offensive that's when the fire starts. People don't like thinking they're the villain.

    People say and do what they say and do because it is a part of their nature, their culture, their upbringing, etc. I do that. Everybody does that.

    We perceive such people as rude, arrogant and obnoxious because of the audacity they seem to have. How dare they say such things?

    But life is a stage and each of us is just an actor and player.
     
  16. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Okay, I've removed the last string of posts from this thread which were little more than outright fighting.

    I don't expect to have to babysit grown-ups, so let's try and bring a bit maturity to the discussions, thanks.
     
  17. soma

    soma New Member

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    Fleas who have only lived on a dog's back think life is in thick fur. They can't see past the hairs. The flea that jumps up sees there is more to life.

    I don't recommend jumping up and down, but just sitting quietly, letting the thought process relax. Music has that effect and we get high or alter our consciousness.
     
  18. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    I`m certain now that I don`t like self-proclaimed Atheists who ask religious questions on the forums.

    TK
     
  19. enlightenment

    enlightenment New Member

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    I used to do a bit of meditation, Soma, and never realised how hard it is to think of nothing, if you know what I mean. Was good though. Enjoyed it.
     

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