Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

lunamoth

lunamoth

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This springs from a question I had for wil in the Resurrection thread. Wil, if I understood you correctly you said that you think the Resurrection could have happened, even though you don't think there is sufficient proof that it did.

So, a question for wil and everyone, do you accept the supernatural, especially the events of the NT?

Why or why not?
 
I don't anymore, probably because of seeing lots of times when dishonest people get religious authority. This just doesn't seem consistent with various scriptures I read. I think supernatural things can happen, however I would have expected God to make clear what was His and what wasn't. A quote from James says that you can ask for wisdom and expect to get it, but that has fallen through for me. You could argue I have been 'double minded', but I do not see how.

My family have been faithful, honest, and obedient. We have been cursed with child deaths, blindness, early strokes, problematic births, etc. We have had 'Prophets' promise one thing and another thing happen. Our resources have been sapped by lies, and if miracles can happen then we have had negative ones.

Another thing missing is that gift called 'discernment of spirits', mentioned in I Corinthians 12:10. I have sought and not found anyone with this gift, but I have found pretenders of it in excess. I know lots of people who have far too much faith in complete shysters, and right now the thing I am most perfectly trained to become is one of them. I would not do that, however I know how false miracles are perpetrated. Sadly I know many ways to successfully make money by fooling people. I never wanted to know anything like that, and I've never desired to use people -- just want a normal life. This says to me that true miracles are too good for me, or too good to be wasted on human beings.
 
One thing I notice about the miracles of the NT is that Jesus did not ask for money when he performed them.

The 'economics' of the Christian communities portrayed in the NT revolve around sharing with those in need, not taking.
 
This is a something that I have struggled with since I was 15 years old. I need to think about this some more and then I will get back to you. Good question.
 
lunamoth said:
One thing I notice about the miracles of the NT is that Jesus did not ask for money when he performed them.

The 'economics' of the Christian communities portrayed in the NT revolve around sharing with those in need, not taking.
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That is a good observation, and I don't want to shoot miracles down.

In the favor of miracles: It seems to me that the big-time miracles in the Bible are reserved for establishing truth, even miracles that appear to have some practical application. Elijah floats an axehead for someone and Jesus walks on the water, however these have behind them an emphasis on establishing truth in some way. I can attribute the healing miracles of Jesus casting out demons etc. to various things he was teaching and these were reserved only for those who received his message, so to me it would had something to do with establishing that message. In that case it makes sense that I don't see miraculous healings etc., because perhaps it is already established.
 
I don't believe in the supernatural, I believe it is all natural.

I don't believe in miracles, I believe it is all a miracle.

these things and greater ye shall do...

I believe faith can move mountains, I believe it all can happen, I just don't know if it did.

But I also believe that you could do it as well.

Didn't the prophets say ye are G!ds?

Lastly there is so much more to the 'miracle' than the miracle. It is the story, the allegory, the underlying principle, the metaphor, the metaphysical aspect that I can utilize in my life today that intrigues me, not arguments over what did or did not happen in the past.

I'm ok with folks that believe it all, and those that believe none of it. I have issues with those that can't tolerate the other
 
lunamoth said:
So, a question for wil and everyone, do you accept the supernatural, especially the events of the NT?

Why or why not?
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I believe in miracles, sick being healed, walking on water, raising from the dead all of it :)
 
wil said:
Didn't the prophets say ye are G!ds?
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Yes they did ... and that's why it's important people understand the context of Scripture ... what they did not says is what you choose to read into the text, and no-one, Jewish or Christian, will agree with the implicit pantheism of your interpretation.

Thomas
 
AT A FUTURE TIME no resistent will say i am sick ISAIAH 33;24




and yes that will be on the earth



JESUS showed on a small scale just how with power from God healing will take place.

and not only that ,even death will be swallowed up forever
1 corinthians 15;26
 
I think miracles are possible. Unfortunately, we can see that in the NT, even after Jesus did miracles, people believed in him only for a short time. The impact of miracles can fade away. Doubt can follow, if there is not a deeper understanding.

Personaly, I have seen some people with some healing gift. Only a very small % experience some miracle.

I think Jesus would have prefered to have people believe in him even without miracles. He was desperate for people to receive his message by really understanding what he was saying. At the end he was still rejected and crucified.

Now for those who are making money with all these fake miracles on Xstian TV etc, it does so much damage to religion in general. They are selling God. It is just terrible.
 
Thomas said:
Yes they did ... and that's why it's important people understand the context of Scripture ... what they did not says is what you choose to read into the text, and no-one, Jewish or Christian, will agree with the implicit pantheism of your interpretation.

Thomas
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Namaste Thomas,

great chuckle there... 'no-one' What does that mean to you? Not one? How omniscient of you.

as for context...didn't Jesus say that when he was being questioned about his relationship to G!d? I and the father are one??
 
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wil said:
'no-one' What does that mean to you? Not one? How omniscient of you.
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Oh, that's twice in one week I've been called omniscient simply for stating the truth. I could argue the point, but I shall withdraw.

wil said:
as for context...didn't Jesus say that when he was being questioned about his relationship to G!d? I and the father are one??
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Yes, I believe that He did, the point is that you do not ... you have stated often (as here) that you don't believe the word of Scripture as being in any sense 'reliable' or 'authentic' or 'genuine', but all a fabricated construct.

I find myself smiling with you, it being somewhat paradoxical that you choose to quote scripture at me.

Thomas
 
Perhaps it isn't paradoxical lol (oh big flashy words...) Maybe from his way of typing it he is just questioning your infallible understanding of this book? To see how you explain it away... Maybe it isn't about him contradicting himself but curious to see how you deduce?.

Supersize me please.

-edit-

Oh and to answer Luna's question....

I'm kinda along the lines of Wil, kinda, except I don't believe in a god... lol but there is one big miracle that is for sure.

I'll take fries with that too....
 
soleil10 said:
I think miracles are possible. Unfortunately, we can see that in the NT, even after Jesus did miracles, people believed in him only for a short time. The impact of miracles can fade away. Doubt can follow, if there is not a deeper understanding.

Personaly, I have seen some people with some healing gift. Only a very small % experience some miracle.

I think Jesus would have prefered to have people believe in him even without miracles. He was desperate for people to receive his message by really understanding what he was saying. At the end he was still rejected and crucified.

Now for those who are making money with all these fake miracles on Xstian TV etc, it does so much damage to religion in general. They are selling God. It is just terrible.
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Totally agree that miracles don't create trust, and religious broadcasters have largely let humanity down.
 
Thomas said:
Oh, that's twice in one week I've been called omniscient simply for stating the truth. I could argue the point, but I shall withdraw.


Yes, I believe that He did, the point is that you do not ... you have stated often (as here) that you don't believe the word of Scripture as being in any sense 'reliable' or 'authentic' or 'genuine', but all a fabricated construct.

I find myself smiling with you, it being somewhat paradoxical that you choose to quote scripture at me.

Thomas
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Quote scripture AT you? You responded to my using scripture in response to the OP. when I said ye are G!ds that was not me, but Jesus words according to the good book. Now again you misquote me. You say I think all of the bible is fabricated? No, I say I don't believe it contains exact word for word quotes...you can't play back the tape...and notes weren't taken as it was said...and Jesus didn't evidently write anything worthy of keeping.

So my context is correct, and just because I am using your sword doesn't mean it isn't still as sharp as when in your hands.
Alex said:
I'm kinda along the lines of Wil, kinda, except I don't believe in a god... lol but there is one big miracle that is for sure.
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Funny, I believe you do. Not maybe the same vengeful spiteful tempermental G!d that many relate from the bible...but the same one I do... G!d as principle, as love, as intelligence, not intelligent or loving, but love and intelligence....ie G!d is all there is....and just to get myself in trouble again...

Be still and know...UNeyeNdadR1
 
wil said:
Funny, I believe you do. Not maybe the same vengeful spiteful tempermental G!d that many relate from the bible...but the same one I do... G!d as principle, as love, as intelligence....
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God as buffet at the Kung Pao Restaurant: Everything you want from it with, and no personality to speak of...
 
The problem I have is not disbelief in the ‘super-natural,’ but more a concern about how certain events themselves were interpreted and how the descriptions of them were manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries. I am not implying a conspiracy, but there is a clear picking and choosing of what appears in the Bible and how it appears based on the dogma of the RCC. This does not shake my faith in G-d, Jesus or any other Biblical figure, but it does give me pause and question certain aspects of the events and to consider alternatives to what occurred.
 
Alex P said:
So "miracle" to you is the standard example the bible gives? You believe in all that nice..... Ever seen it happen?
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Yes, I've had a miracle happen in my life, Alex. And I don't mean it in the huggy-feely sense of "each day is a miracle," or "a warm summer breeze is a miracle." I mean it in the sense that something that should never have happened did happen at exactly the point that my soul was crying out for it to happen. It wasn't the raising of the dead, or the healing of someone with terminal cancer; it also wasn't getting a seat on a crowded bus, or getting the last slice of pie at the cafeteria. But it was significant for me in terms of what was happening in my life, and six years later there is no doubt in my mind that it was a miracle.

I haven't said what the miracle is because for all you know I may be making it up, just like all the other shysters and false-prophets. I am telling you the truth, but even if I wasn't I would say that I am.

Dream, I honestly feel for you because I believe what you wrote a hundred percent. I'm not sure why that particular miracle happened to me when I only hoped and didn't ask, while other people ask and do not receive, even though Jesus says that we will receive. I'm not sure why I've been able to walk ass-backwards through life so far, encountering opportunity after opportunity like I'm somehow invincible to all of the hardships that I hear others talking about, but it's happened somehow. Maybe my hardships are coming later. Maybe your miracles are coming later. I will say this, though: having gone through a tough life, I bet you've developed a whole lot more character than I have. That's not much of a consolation, though.

I know that miracles happen sometimes. I know that they don't happen sometimes. I'm not sure why that is; God is hard to understand. I also know that sometimes we don't know what's best for us, or that the things we want require a different path than we think they do.

Dream, perhaps God needs you for something very, very big, and needs you to develop character that most people don't have.
 
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